need a little imput from the people that seem to have all the answers

[egreptile]

Hello to all,

I have a situation that has arisen over the last month, and I was asked to contact you by the person that the situation pertains to. Please take the time to read this letter through as I need a few responses by respectable colubrid dealers and breeders/keepers. I do appreciate your input and consideration. Please either type out or write a little response, and fax it back to me. Again, thank you for your time. I also realize that it is long, but please take the time.

On Oct. 19th, 2003 I received a group of baby white sided rat snakes. We asked the dealer if they were all feeding, and he said “oh definitely”. There were 24 in the group, and for the most part they looked good. There were 5-6 in the group that did look thin, and I thought that they would die. Still if I could save 2 of the six then I still have 20 babies for future breeding projects. I did not bother telling the person that I got them from about the thin ones because I just thought that maybe they were waiting on anoles, and they would beef up soon. Plus he gave them to me at a killer deal. There was a little smell of death in the container, but I assumed that he fed to close to having them shipped up. When we got home from the show that we were at when we picked them up we set them all up in separate shoe boxes on aspen with a water dish in a slide rack. We allowed them until the 29th to settle in before feeding them. At this point one of the thin ones had died. We fed them all small pinkies (as we always do when bringing babies home from a show). We feed f/t, and we lay it in the front of the container. This way we know that the snake ate or not, and on that occasion 3 did not feed. We have a vet that comes by every two weeks to check over all new arrivals, and anything that would be having problems. When she came by on Friday Oct. 31 she wanted to see all the new babies that we brought back from the show, and when I started pulling them out to show her I noticed that there were regurgitations in the containers. The vet asked me several questions about them like are they CB, who did I get them from, did they say that they had problem, you know the normal questions to ask. Well I thought this was very odd that 14 of them puked. The vet administered a very small amount of panacur to the babies that puked, and asked me to give them two weeks before feeding them again because of the stomach acid that comes up with the food when it is puked. When I went in to feed the next week the six that did not puke, and to check on the other babies that did puke I noticed that four more babies had died. I fed the other six, and e-mailed the person that I got them from to let them know that they were dying. I guess one thing that was really bothering me was that it was not only the skinny ones that were dying off, but the good looking ones also. This is on the 4th of October, and he still says that they were doing excellent. ALL were feeding (odd why were there 5 that were nothing but a skeleton and skin flaps if they were all eating), and he had not lost any. Then he said “well I take that back I lost one on the way to the show”. I told him all of what has been typed up to this point, and he asked me why they were given panacur. I told him that they were given it because a vet did it, and that they were puking. They don’t puke when nothing is wrong with them. We knew that it was not temperature or other variables because they are in a room with around 300 other snakes. There were no other animals that puked or had any ill reaction including the animals in the same rack system as the baby rat snakes, and we have not had a CB animal die in about a year before these. When we go through to clean on Saturday I notice that 2 of the six that were feeding fine are now puking, and were dead before the vet came back on the 14th of October along with 4 others. When we fed again on the 12th the same four ate again, and out of the other 13 that were left the two still did not eat, and the other 11 did. Two days later on the 14th twelve had puked, and 2 more had died. I cleaned all of their water dishes and cages well at this point, and did not check on them again until the 19th to feed the same three that were eating. The vet was coming on the 21st, so I thought better to leave the other alone until she got there. We checked on all of the babies again on Friday and the three that had been eating had puked and died, and along with six others. Now I am sitting at one month with them, and 22 dead babies in the freezer. I had called between deaths, but he did not return my messages. I got him on the phone on the 21st to find out what his thoughts are on the subject, and he still says that they were feeding fine. He says that he got them on July 1st, 2003, and they fed for him ever week since. I would think that if they had fed for 16 weeks strait that they would be a little larger than hatchling size. Basically he will not take any responsibility for them, and he does not know what to tell me. Then we argue back and forth about it, and he finally says for me to contact other colubrid breeders and get their opinions on the situation. Please send me your thoughts, advice, or opinions, so that I can get an outsiders view of the situation. Believe me I am not one to ever complain or make a stink about anything. I just don’t like being taken for $2,000 and given this for an explanation, and I just know what I would do in this situation if the tables were turned. Thank you for your time.

Jeremy Coates

www.exoticgemsreptile.com

 

[Clay Davenport]

First thing you need to do is quit freezing those babies. You need to have a necropsy done to determine what is going on. Freezing prevents a thorough necropsy being done because cells rupture during the process.
The next one that dies, and from the sound of it there will be another, put it in the fridge if you can't get it to the vet immediately.
If a necropsy determines they have a pathogen, you have your evidence.

You may have already risked at least the other babies in that rack by housing them so close to the black rats.
Regardless though, when 22 out of 24 have died with the same symptoms, it strongly suggests a common factor, almost with complete surety.
It may be that they picked something up at the show and they were indeed fine when the seller had them. But then again it may be that he hasn't been completely truthful about their history, I'm not suggesting either possibility. If you had not had any of this sort of thing prior to bringing those home, and none of your other snakes have suffered from it, particularly any that were acquired around the same time, then that suggests that the problem did not originate with you.
The main thing is you need to know the cause of death by way of necropsy. Considering the value of this group, I can't believe you or the vet didn't suggest this route after the first half dozen had died.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Assuming your husbandry is excellent (temperature, cleanliness. etc.) there is obviously something wrong with the babies. In MHO once the first pukers were detected the first thing to rule out was a protozoal infection (treated with Flagyl) and not dose at random with panacur. They may have very well been infected with roundworms too, but more than likely it was protoza in the upper GI tract. For how long does the seller guarantee his animals after the sale. Ten days went by from the date of purchase until the first one died and 12 days until you verified the first regurgitations. Anything could have happened in those 12 days (even protozoa can multiply that were not a problem before shipping). The decision is up to the individual who sold you the snakes. He can trust you blindly and issue a refund but, what does his TOS say with regards to the guarantee. Is it live and healthy arrival? Is it 48 h? Is it 12 days? One thing is for sure. Isolate completely the remaining ones. Wear disposable gloves when handling the animals, cages, water bowls, etc. Test for protozoa before dosing again with Panacur!

Regards,

Dan

 

[bpc]

Did the vet do a fecal?

Why would the vet say not to feed baby snakes for 2 weeks. I have never had a vet say that. I've had them say to force/tube feed thin animals, but never not to feed them for two weeks. Especially after you had already waited 10 days to feed them, and you didn't know when the last time they ate before that was. 2 days shipping+10 days settling in+2 days waiting on the vet+14 days waiting on the meds to settle, that means some (the ones who didn't eat the first time) of these admittedly "hatchling size" animals were going AT LEAST 28 days w/o food!!! I start sweating it at 8-9 for babies.

And I have to agree w/ what was posted above. The vet is there, at you house, watching these animals drop, so to speak, and he/she never suggested a necropsy?!?!?!

Unfortunately, unless there was some sort of guarantee on the animals given to you by the seller, I'd have to say this is your problem. Yes, it is highly likely that the problem started while in his care. But, it is just as likely, that it happened on your end, other than the animal that died right away. I really don't understand why you didn't say something about the thin animals in the first place. Doing so might have given you some sort of recourse, but now, he thinks you're responsible, and this late in the game, I don't think many people would give you your money back.

 

[Clay Davenport]

Why would the vet say not to feed baby snakes for 2 weeks. I have never had a vet say that.

This was in reference to the babies that had regurgitated, not the ones who at that time appeared healthy.
Granted, I don't wait two weeks after a regurge in hatchlings, but that was the reason for the vet's recommendation.

 

[bpc]

Clay, I understand that, but, that still leaves a hatchling sized animal w/o a digested meal for 24 days! 10 he waited to feed + 14 waiting for the meds to settle. Possible longer if there was lag time between the regurge and the vet visit, which I think there was.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I understand what you are saying, the ones that puked hadn't digested a meal in 24 days.
I do agree that two weeks was an excessive time to wait on such small snakes.
The main point I see is that a necropsy should have been done early on as soon as it was considered that there was a problem with that group of snakes.
As you brought up as well, there was no mention of a fecal, only the random administration of panacur.

To an extent, I feel the vet dropped the ball here, and that may cost him the ability to prove the seller had some fault in this issue.

 

[herpetological]

The length of time with the feeding is a partial factor. it was already pointed out that a necropsy should have been suggested/done. It also seems your vet was guessing when it was decided to use panacur. Protozoa are the most common cause of regurge or weight loss as Alvaro pointed out. I think I would have tried feeding them at 3 days after I recieved them.
Have you used pinkies out of this same batch for feeding others in your collection? This could be a factor as well. Not likely but, possible. Also... sometimes snakes will regurge if fed right before a front(weather). The quick drop in barometric pressure can cause this. However, this may not be the answer if it continues. Just some thoughts to kick around. Again as has been stated the dealer may have lied about the specimens? Also the babies definately should have been larger and more robust if they had all fed 16 times!

 

[Glenn Bartley]

The following is my opinion, take it as such and nothing more

I am not a big time dealer or big time breeder but I do have well over 35 years experience with snakes, and have bred many types on a small scale. I have run into health problems with my snakes too but usually also only on a small scale. I have also run into unscrupulous dealers who have sold me ill animals claiming they were in pristine health. I hate getting ripped off, and in my opinion, I think you may have been ripped off – but I also think you contributed greatly to your problems. What you have explained in your original post amounts to a symphony of errors and the people in the orchestra are likely the dealer, you and the vet. I will start with you because you made some truly glaring novice type mistakes, in my opinion, with your purchase and care of these snakes.

First of all, if I understand correctly, you bought these snakes and upon receipt of them you immediately realized they were not all apparently eating as had been stated by the dealer. By your own admission you then said nothing to the dealer, about the thin snakes, because he gave them to you at what you called “a killer deal”. Apparently your first mistake was you either did not see the snakes before you bought them, and if you did you bought them anyhow even though some looked too thin. This was evidently fueled by nothing else than getting a killer deal, and all I can say about that is you get what you pay for. As to not informing the dealer about the thin snakes, that was a big mistake too. You should have immediately informed him that some the snakes were not to your satisfaction (and if they were to your satisfaction because of the killer price – then again that was your mistake – you should, in my opinion, never be satisfied with less than healthy animals).

The next really bad thing you did was to wait ten days to attempt to feed these snakes from Oct. 19 to the 29th. In that LONG time (yes it would have been long for snakes that had already appeared to you to have been too thin), you say, one of the thin ones died. You probably did not monitor these snakes properly, if you had I would guess you would have quite possibly realized that they needed food and veterinary attention promptly. You also point out that you attempted to feed all of them with pinky mice. Are you not the one who previously had surmised that you would need to feed the 6 thin ones with anoles? You said that 3 did not feed so I am figuring that 20 snakes fed (3 did not and another one had died). Did you only attempt to feed F/t pinkies to these snakes? Again what about the anoles, but before ever even considering an anole did you attempt to heat the f/t pinkies, did you wriggle them in front of the snakes that refused food to simulate live, did you attempt feeding a live prey item? What other methods did you try to get the 3 non-feeders to eat? From what I can gather from your very detailed post – you did nothing else but waited for the vet to show up on her biweekly rounds. In fact, from what I can make out from your post, you had not even checked on these new snakes since you fed them two days before the vet arrived. How do I surmise this – simply because you said the vet wanted to see all your new snakes from the show and it was only then you noticed they had puked. By the way after reading that section again I now realize you got these at a show, so it stands to reason you saw the actual snakes before you purchased them!

Then you go on to say that you realized 4 more had died the next week when you checked on the 14 that had gotten ill and when you went to feed the 6 that had not upchucked the previous week. Whoa – what is wrong with this picture? That adds up to 20 snakes; weren’t there another 3 that had not eaten the previous week on October 29th. Did you make any other attempts to feed them during the days following October 29 prior to another whole week passing? You then say it was really bothering you that the healthy looking ones were dying off, and then you got in touch with the dealer on October 4th (although I am guessing you meant November 4th). You say the dealer responded to an email you sent him by saying all had been eating but in your original post you question the veracity of the dealer by your saying:

“(odd why were there 5 that were nothing but a skeleton and skin flaps if they were all eating)”

This again only points out that you did not follow one of the cardinal rules of business: Caveat Emptor” or buyer beware! If the snakes looked that ill – you should have complained immediately. You also should have contacted a vet immediately – not waited for a vet to show up. You should also have insisted that the vet do both fecal smear and fecal float examinations from stoole samples from any and all of the snakes that took a dump.

You go on to explain that you committed another potentially disastrous act when you placed these snakes into a snake room with 300 other snakes! Why on earth you did not quarantine them from such a large and in my guess probably valuable collection is beyond my comprehension especially in light of the fact that you say 6 of them looked as bad as you said they did – see that above quote again please.

Now I have to do some math with the dates. You say you fed or tried to feed them the second time on or about October 4 (probably meaning Nov. 4) Then you said when you go through to clean them on Saturday you notice 2 more puking – I am guessing this to be Nov. 8; and that these were dead before the vet returned on 14th. You then mention some other dates and which ate, which did not, how many got sick or died, etc. You did not apparently call the vet between her first visit to come to attend to these snakes, but it seems to me, that you waited until she again came around on her normal routine visit. You also point out that out of all the snakes – 2 were still not eating - and I have to guess you mean since you bought them – yet you say nothing about attempted assist feedings or attempted force feedings let alone any attempts made with food items other than f/t pinkies. You do point out that after the 14th or there about – you leave the snakes alone and do not check on them again for approximately 5 days. By the time you wrote your post, 22 had died. As other have pointed out – a necropsy should have been performed by your vet.

That last line leads to the next set of points I want to make. Is your vet qualified in any way to work with reptiles and amphibians? Is she familiar with diagnosing and treating diseases and other afflictions of herps? I am certainly no vet, but I have read up a bit on how to diagnose and care for sick snakes over the years, and I can tell you that, in my lay opinion, your vet may possibly not have done all that needed to be done; but I base this upon what you said she did. It makes me have to ask: Didn’t she perform any diagnostic testing? Didn’t she instruct you to immediately quarantine these sick snakes? If she shotgun treated with Panacur then why not also with Flagyl? Did she even for a moment suggest that the condition might have been caused by a bacterial or viral infection which would have required medications other than Panacur? Did she consider that these snakes may have been chilled during transport prior to your receiving them leading to a bacterial infection? Did she instruct you to try to feed the nonfeeders with items other than f/t pinkies? Did she attempt to force feed the nonfeeders that looked emaciated? Did she ever discover what affliction caused these snakes to die?

That last question sort of brings me to the last person in the orchestra. Could these snakes have been ill since before you purchased them? Is such likely or unlikely based upon what you have told us? My guess would be, and please realize this is based upon what you have told us and I sure would like to hear the dealer’s side of the story, that these snakes were likely very ill before you purchased them – and that the dealer should make restitution to you for them if (and please note I said IF) there was some sort of a health or feeding guarantee; and if you followed to conditions of the guarantee. Heck I would hope any reputable dealer to make some sort of restitution even if there was no such guarantee – but only if you had taken correct steps to immediately contact the dealer about any problems with these snakes, and to supply him with a full vets report of the diagnosis of the problem. I think you have a problem there. I think you took too long to contact the dealer. I think you were not even concerned about the welfare of the snakes when you bought them, as evidenced by the fact that you yourself stated your were not all that concerned about the thin snakes because of the great deal you got; and I think (my opinion) that all you were really worried about was a later profit - but I am guessing on this issue.

Yes it sounds as if the dealer may owe you something, but only if the dealer’s side of the story supports your side or if not then only if the vet reports from day one support your side – and that is where you, in my opinion, really messed up – you did not complain from day one even though some of the snakes apparently were emaciated or close to it; and you did not complain because of the KILLER DEAL you got. Yes it was, in my opinion, a killer deal - it wound up that most of the snakes were the victims.


Sincerely,
Glenn B

 

[snakegetters]

Regurgitation, dehydration and wasting in the manner you have described strongly suggests a protozoan problem. Fenbendazole does have some anti-protozoal activity and good broad spectrum activity against Giardia and nematodes, but it's not really my first choice when I see symptoms like these. The antiprotozoal and antibacterial activity of metronidazole (Flagyl) would have been a better bet in my opinion to soothe gastrointestinal disturbances.

Of course the most important thing to do is to look under the microscope and figure out exactly what organism(s) are present, and medicate appropriately based on what you are actually seeing. If the vet didn't do that, shame on him. The "no food" suggestion is also highly questionable; these animals clearly needed first fluid support and then nutritional support ASAP.

If the diagnostics had turned out like I expect they would, I'd have suggested Flagyl at 50mg/kg along with a weak slurry of enteral carnivore diet (Mazuri or similar) and Pedialyte at 5% of body weight, repeated in 3-4 days. Might have even saved a few, depending on how far along they were.

One possibility is that the vet did diagnose protozoans but chose fenbendazole instead of metronidazole due to concerns about metronidazole toxicity in smaller snakes. My feeling is that neonates handle Flagyl @ 50mg/kg better than they handle not getting any Flagyl, with symptoms like those described.

Another legitimate concern is that feeding patients whose GI tract isn't working can lead to bacterial problems because the food won't be properly digested in any case. I find that a diluted nutritional slurry primarily composed of electrolytes is a good compromise in a debilitated patient.