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Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

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I think you have to be objective and look at some facts...

Quick Corallus Fact:
Emerald tree boas have very slow metabolisms compared to most other boids. They feed, move, and defecate relatively infrequently when compared to say, a boa constrictor. For the snake to be in the dehydrted state that it was in, one of 2 scenarios had to occur here.

1) The snake got sick. The snake could have regurged a few times which causes them to dehydrate quickly and would also support having such low values as reported by the vet. It could also have gone off-feed for a while...sometimes they do this during times of stress or sickness such as with a resp. infection (which would also cause some dehydration).

2) The snake was ignored. You'd have to provide some hostile conditions for quite some time for the snake to look that way. Like everything else, emeralds unfortunately take a relatively long time to fall apart. I'd say that animal had to be dehydrated for at least several weeks time for the rostral scales to cave in that way and for the scales along the neck and body to "double over". As you can see in the before pic a healthy animal should have a seemless appearance, the scales should not appear jagged.

I'm glad you're doing all you can for that animal Matt, don't give up on her!

C'mon Tim, do the right thing dude.
 
Some afternoon shots. I am getting a little worried because she is now coiled loosly over two pvc perches and her tail is slightly hanging down. When I feel her body from the sides it is very mushy like there is not much muscle tone.

Here you can see the loose skin on the sides of the neck. I lifted her head up after I took the pic and she held it up for a couple of seconds and then put it right back down.
Head_and_neck.jpg


This is a mid body shot. Her skin is loose and she kind of 'melts' over the perch. You can see by how wide her body is on the pvc that there is not much muscle tone there.
lower_body.jpg


This is a lower body shot. Not so puffy anymore but more saggy. It has the same melting look to it and the same squishy feeling too. The skin is also loose in this area.
Lower_body_2.jpg


I am hoping this is just a 'bad afternoon' for her!
 
Wow

We know it was injected and shipping had nothing to do with this. This animal should have never been shipped IMO. If Tim would have been upfront wth the health of the animal then this would have never happened.

I might of missed it but I do not think Tim denied that the animal was sick. he never said the animal was 100%. So why ship a 2500 dollar snake when it is not 100%

Tim post and answer some of the questions please.
 
Here in Michigan we got this thing called the 'lemon law' for when you buy a car, if its a bad car and not honestly represented ,you are compensated
Good thing for you Tim that there is no law like that for herps ehh??.....
That snake looks terrible...one question Tim ----what do you call healthy???
 
What can one say about this thread. Truly sad for all (including the snake).
A little history.........I have purchased from Tim before. He and I did a trade. I sent him an adult chondro and he sent me a great pair of baby ETB's. I look at a few things here, both visual and verbal (well typed anyway) and it just does not add up.
When I received the two ETB's from Tim, last year now, they were packed with more paper than that big box had. They were in there nice and tight, they had a thermometer in the box so I new (and he wanted to know) what the temp was when I received them. The snakes were very healthy.
I have also seen MANY posts here on the BOI from TIm. He speaks in a way that we are all fromiliar with (polite, considerate, kind, etc.) The words ehre so not come across the same way (granted, he is not hearing things he likes, but there is still a diff "tone" here).
We used to email each other back and forth and through time (not his fault or mine, just happened) we lost touch so to speak. He was always jovial and fun to go back and forth with.
My point is this. It is almost like a TOTALLY different person packed this snake, wrote the emails, posted here on the BOI, etc. Now I am NOT MAKING excuses. I think we all know TIm well enough (and myself proobably least of all) and I think you know where I am coming from. It just seems so "odd".

With that said, I have a few questions about this injection process. Worst case senario, as it was said somewhrere on here, it can be fatal. For me learning something ehre, let's say it is not a "lethal" dose, and hopefully not. Wouldn't the snake jsut absorb this liquid and go back to being the same old snake it always was? I have never heard of someone (human) having an I.V. in for too long and getting sick/dying. You understand my point? I am just wondering why a snake would be any different. Could the snake be put on heat to "cook" the liquid out? Might be far off, but again, I am new to this injection process. I have heard of it, but that is it.

Lastly, Tim, like many have said, you are a stand up guy. It seems you have many people (including me) that would want to support you, but need to know what happened here. Even if you and Matt did have a falling out, so to speak, could you not tell him (even privately) what you do know.............just for the snakes sake? Even if you truely did not inject the snake, what else can you offer for the snakes condition at this time? Do it for the snake, again, even if you have a presonal thing for Matt. I jsut hate to see a snake in this condition and taking the snake out of it all together, I hate, even more to a degree, you and Matt having this fall out.

Hope it all works out for TIm, AMtt, and the ETB.

Best of luck guys!
Brian Oakley
 
Matt,
I'm totally shocked as well and sorry to see that this kind of deal has happened between you and Tim. I have never dealt with Tim and have rarely conversed with him so I don't know enough to comment on his integrity.

However, not mentioning the obviously questionable health of the animals mentioned...I personally would never ever ship or agree to recieve an emerald tree boa shipped via UPS or Airborne...especially UPS!! UPS is extremely risky where I am. If they miss you the box goes back in the warehouse overnight and you can't get a human being on the phone to save your life!

A hardier snake such as a $100 amazon tree boa, a colombian boa, or even a hardy chondro could perhaps handle that kind of shipping much better than an emerald but I would never risk it for high priced animals. I would only do Delta Dash with emeralds period...they are just too dang delicate. Especially a high end $2500 Basin or New Locale specimen! It's just too risky!! a $2500 snake!!...man, why didn't you all ship Dash??
John Hedger
 
Brian,

The biggest problem with snakes and ETBs specially is that everything about them in so slow......If u were to give an over dose of fluids the snake would be unable to process it fast enough and would drown.........it would start with a back up of fluids in the kidneys and work its way up .......Once it hits the lungs ur in BIG trouble....... Ever heard of fluid on the lungs????? With out the proper meds to "dry" it out from the inside out ,it would die. The biggest problem I see with Matts snake is that she was very dehydrated to start with and using any meds to help with the over hydration she has possibly recieved could kill her as well......So really, all I can see Matt being able to do is wait it out..........

Hopefully the mushie feeling will go away as the fluid under her skin is absorbed.......

All the bast of luck Matt;)
 
Matt,
Sorry to see this ugly turn of events -it dose'nt take a rocket scientist to see this snake's condition is not a result of shipping length or temp.I too do not guarentee shipments when shipping by carriers other than Delta dash but I also do not ship animals in that condition either. Danny is right ,as well as others, the metabolism of an emerald tree boa would'nt allow it to deteriorate quick enough for that animal's condition to be blamed on shipping problems-even if there was a delay. Anything that could cause a healthy animal to arrive in that condition in that short of time would be in my opinion enough to kill it. Your purchase is quite obviously of a damaged animal prior to shipping and it's likely you may not get compensated. Be that as it may it's good to be informed as to the nature of someones credibility so others on this forum won't get burned as well from the same guy. Hope this friend of yours gets a concience and does the right thing.-Tim whoever you are it would be best to handle the return off line and get it over with.
Pete-Incredible Pets Inc.
 
Hey John,

I have never had a bad experience with UPS and I still haven't yet. This had absolutely NOTHING to do with UPS except they brought it from point A to point B in less than the alloted amount of time. It left Tim's at 7:00 at night and got here at 9:01 am without a hitch. Tim is also not a known shipper so he has to use UPS or airborne. I have had two vets who trained with Elliot Jacobson examine the animal for two days and they both said that shipping had zero to do with the way this animal arrived.

Hey Brian,

There is little doubt in my mind that an emerald can absorb fluids that are injected in a short period of time. There is a bigger problem though and that is why did it have to be done in the first place and why wasn't I told before I was told I had to send the money up front? The whole deal stunk from the begining. I didn't think of it at the time but I told a couple of people that I couldn't believe that Tim was making such an issue about getting paid up front. Heck he even sent me a Paypal link one night that said something like click here to send Tim Bowles money. I mean it was strange and now I know why. Hopefully it will work out.
 
Hey Brian,
Just to add to what Nett said...snakes don't have diaphragms like we do. Actually, they don't even use both lungs effectively, most only use one. In order to inhale they need to expand their ribs outwards which creates the change in pressure inside the body necessary to inhale air.

When the body cavity is filled with excessive amounts of fluid like that it becomes incredibly hard for the snake to breath...unable to expand its body cavity (which is already expanded), subsequently blood pressure drops and other problems soon follow.

Since we breath differently, this can't really happen to us which is why you don't hear of any cases in humans although pnuemonia (fluid in the lungs) kills alot of people every year.

I think at this point there's no doubt about the snake's problems, it just boils down to how it will be made right. You still have a chance Tim, put this rediculous thing to rest...it's okay to mess up, it's how you handle it that people will remember.

Don't go out like this...
 
Hey Danny,

Thanks but Tim has already made up his mind. I could tell that wednesday night when he talked to me. It was quite obvious after talking to him that in my opinion I was set up from the begining. It all comes together now:

1. Tim wouldn't ship until I paid up front.

2. Tim NOT wanting to be responsible for anything that happened during shipping.

3. Tim needing a witness to our deal.

4. Tim needing a witness to see how the box was packed.

5. Tim shipping the box so it arrives by noon with no writing on it of any kind stating live animals or the like.

6. Tim only putting four very insignificant airholes in the box of which only 1 went all the way through.

7. When telling Tim of the tragedy on the phone and asking him to look at the pictures I was in the process of sending him, he simlpy stated something like dude I told you not to use UPS and that happened during shipping, without even looking at them.

8. Having a friend of Tim's tell me that Tim told him that I was taking full responsibility for using UPS and was buying the animal in 'as in' condition.

9. Tim's sudden hatred toward me for me trying to get my money back!

In my opinion it all adds up to a well thought plan that I am ashamed for not seeing when he was asking for all the money up front!
 
two things:
ONE: my mother works for UPS, and there are THREE next day delivery methods:
early AM: by 8:30 am
AM: by 10:30
afternoon: by either 3 or 3:30, i think 3:30.

Tim saying the only option for UPS was delivery by noon is BULL.

on a sidenote, i must add that i have NEVER had a package damaged or even delivered late. (nor have i ever had the people at UPS open my package and inject my snake with fluids. maybe that's a new trend i haven't heard about yet..)

SECOND: though i do not personally own any emeralds, i have cared for two; one in my high school reptile program, and one at work. the first one didn't eat for 6-8 months after she arrived, and she got a respitory infection and some sort of mouth infection that made her tooth hang out the side of her mouth.
she does occasionally eat now, but even during the period of 6-8 months when she didn't eat, she NEVER looked even CLOSE to that bad.


i am not anything even close to an authority on emeralds, but from even basic experience i can tell you this: I CAN THROW A PACKAGE WITH A SNAKE IN IT AS MUCH AS I WANT AND IT WOULDN'T GET INJECTION MARKS.
 
Checked on the girl this morning and seems she has taken a slight turn for the worse. It almost looks like half of her body is going into shed and she is listless. Here is a pic of her from about 8:45 am this morning.
Head_shot_001.jpg


It is utterly rediculous that this snake was sold to me when she had a death sentence. I just can't believe the way she is declining. Is this a quality animal from Tim Bowles of Arboraels of The Rainforest? No, but does he have other quality animals, yes. Tim why did I get taken like this from you? Let us know!
 
sick new locale

I wasn't going to post on this again, but after seeing the condition of that once beautiful
animal it has become necessary
for me.This is one of the worst things I've seen here on the
BOI, and that's saying alot!That
someone would ship a live animal
in that condition,charge $2500
for it, and then when the
recieving party protests, the shipper,Tim,tells him to stick it,is criminal behaviour.A blatant rippoff.The sad thing is we're talking about a living creature here.Obviously Tim could care less about the snake and the suffering he has put it through.Putting the money aside, which is a considerable amount,I personally find it very sad to
see the condition of that animal,and would hate to see it go back to the person responsible for it's condition.It obviously would not survive the ordeal.Tim, you had a chance to make good on this
a long time ago, and you've chosen to ignore it.If this snake dies in Matt's care, it won't be his fault, it will be your's,and your name in this
hobby will always be remembered
for the you treated this animal, and the way you treated your customer.There is NO excuse for this kind of behavior and it really makes me sick.Arboreals of the Rainforest will be Arboreals of the Toilet, and it will be too late for you to do anything about it, if it's not too late now.I suspect that is the case already.
To everyone else, I apoligize
for the rant.I just love these
animals, and hate to see them used as a pawn in a grudge match.Matt, I hope you can save that animal.Tim, return the $2500.This is a sad thing to see.Do the right thing!
 
I don't think that I need to add anything further to the previous observations, with the following exeption. Could the fact that Tim lives in Ohio, and the fact that Ohio looks to be well on it's way to making it impossible to deal in reptiles (along with other animals), be the reason that Tim is supposedly selling off his collection, regardless of the condition the animals are in. Maybe he figures he won't have a reputation to protect in the future, since Ohio will make it impossible for him to deal in reptiles.
 
I appreciate teh posts that you all put in in regards to my silly questions.
You bring up an interesting point in relation to Tim's location. THat whole mess is something else in itself.

Matt, as hard as it may be, I would just let it go. Maybe he will surprise you and come through, but only he knows the answer to that. Persoanlly, I just do not think it is worth the stress. Do what you can for the snake (as I know you would) and who knows, it might come around soomeday soon.

Best of luck!
Brian Oakley
 
Hey Brian,

Unless she improves dramatically I will put her down this evening. I feel she has suffered enough and I hate seeing her like this. She is onviously having som difficulty breathing now and she looks bad. I will see what happens throughout the rest of the day.
 
WHERE IS TIM..?

Tim i keep seeing the advertisement i have seen, probably 50 times before come up in the sidebar here,, and it makes me sick,, i have looked at your site a few times,, and made a few mental notes on a few breeding projects i was planning in the near future,,i work with chondros and was wanting a few ETBs,, to add to my growing collection... and from what has happened here, you have not only shown the "quality " of animals you sell... but more than that the "quality " of person you are. 2500.00 is nothing to sneeze at but when it comes to your "reputation" we just found out what it is worth huh? it is so funny you have not come back and replied to this thread,,, your absence lays all the credit in the world to Matts side of this, and we just found out who is really telling the truth didn't we..
I for one am very sad for the poor animal,, for such a majestic animal to be in that kind of shape is criminal.
the only thig you sell is double hets,,,
66 % injected.....
100 % death sentence,,,,
real nice Tim,,,
 
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