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Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

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Brian Oakley said:
Not taking sides on this deal, but only responding to the "accountability" issue, I think someones word is a way of being accountable. Unfortunately people like to think otherwise and change stories.
So Scott, are you saying that you do not make ANY deals over the phone OR the web (email) without someone listening in or reading each and every post? I suppose there is nothing wrong with it, it does cover you a$$, but how sad it is to even THINK that you would have to do such a thing.
I can understand having all the facts and arrangements/agreements done via email so you have "record", but what you are saying is a lttle extreme. Like I said, if you are covering your tail, that is all that matters I suppose. I personally have never had to go to such lengths to make a deal on the selling end OR the buying end.
Click to expand...

I prefer to do trade, purchase or sale via email that way I have a transcript of the transaction.

Why do I do this?

1) I am a salesman and I know all about misleading sales pitches and promises that never come to be

2) I used to run a herp store and probably 80% of the verbal deals that the owner of the store did went sour or were not as good as originally agreed upon. I never did any deals over the phone. I asked to see the herp first, we talked and then I wrote down on multiple carbon copy paper what was decided. When switching to this process, not one purchase, trade or sale ever differed from what was orginally decided upon.

Nobody ever cheated me and the people doing business with me knew I was not going to cheat them.

People that do large volumes of sales and trades cannot possible remember every verbal deal. Although I no longer run a store and my volume is much much smaller, it is still a great process.

To top it off.. I also document all incoming herp packages and herps within their arrival with my camera. A little extreme, maybe.. but.. there is never a doubt with anything I get and if there are problems with a shipment, it is easy to document the problem and get it fixed.

Its the salesman in me.. always gotta CYA!!
 
Hey Scott,

I also document all incoming herp packages and herps within their arrival with my camera.
Click to expand...

It's a good thing I had mine! I have the last three days documented really good!
 
One point, I guess I was more talking about witness' to verbal communication. That is farfetched and in SOME cases impossible. I agree with everything you said although I do not think all is relevant.
1. Like I said, I too like to get all facts and details on email.....cannot dispute what each have typed.
2. I do not make special promises to different people. I promise all people I sell to the following: 1) health -current and past history 2) sex 3)proven or not 4) eating (kind of goes with health, but not always. Some can be season feeders if they were just bred or cooled). 5) what it looks like/pattern if applicable. This is why I will not sell an animal unless I have a pic of it. Same with purchasing one. I might have forgot some of the other "basics" but I do not promise the world. Don't say "will be a great breeder" as I cannot control mother nature.
3. I think the storefront sales are a bit different than internet sales. With a store (mind you I have never owned one, but I have purchased from one and a great friend of mine used to own one as well so I know "the ropes" of the bus.) a person comes in, sees, feels, handles, inspects, etc. In my opinion the only thing that can go wrong is a health problem. In that case I would give a guarantee, much like we do here on different websites we post our ads on.

I know you mentioned that you took pics and or saw each and every snake Tim had OR maybe it was just the ones you wanted. Let me play devils advicate here. Just because a snake looks outwardly healthy today does not mean it will be the same next week or whatever. I too would like to think that Tim takes the best of care when it comes to his animals. Again, we cannot control mother nature 100%.......anything can happen. Facts are facts, the snake in the transaction here is not healthy. The snake was physically and visually unhealthy from the time it came in. Something is wrong with that.
Bottom line, as far as "promises" go, salesman or not, one can only promise what they control/or attempt to control. IE: husbandry, feeding, watering, temps, things like that. If one is going to say "she will produce for you next year" or "You will get 30 babies outof her next year" that is a bad "salesman". How can one "promise" that?
I think you and I are on the same page Scott, but that still does not make the matter at hand any better.
Respectfully,
Brian Oakley
 
Forgot one last thing.............
Covering your a$$ does not always make someone honest. Just means you have someone that likes to play the same games as others.......referring to anyone that will vouch for something.
Just a general comment.
Brian Oakley
 
Hey Scott,

Did you by chance take any pictures of this snake when you were at tim's? And if you did could you post it here please.

Thanks,
Wes Pollock
 
I am truly shocked....

This whole thing is very sad. Matt, I am so sorry to hear about what has happened. I do hope Tim does the right thing and works this out.

While I don't know either party, I do admire the fact that Matt has stuck to being mature in his postings about this situation and am disgusted with Tim's attitude towards Matt, with all the names, etc. What does that tell all of us reading this thread?

I feel so bad for this poor animal. Matt, is there nothing else you can do to save its' life? I do understand with whatever decision that needs to be made.

Take care!

Billy Fraser
 
wilomn said:
Hey Scott,

Did you by chance take any pictures of this snake when you were at tim's? And if you did could you post it here please.

Thanks,
Wes Pollock
Click to expand...

I am not sure if I did.. most of the ETB pictures came out pretty badly... they were not being very photogenic that evening. If you look at the thread on corallus.com (and I think on here) about the Arboreals Gathering, you will see all the pictures that came out good enough to post!
 
Hey Scott,

I don't know what Tim did to this animal but the gathering was two month before I got her so that seems like sufficient time for an animal to start to decline. I hope he had good husbandry practices because whatever is wrong with her I wouldn't want to see the other animals get it.
 
Word of warning: If you are set on putting that animal down DO NOT do it yourself. Doing so, could hurt your chances in court. Have the vet do it.

Here's the question I have: Ohio to FL about 20 hours by car, about what 3 by air. $2500 purchase which you know comes with no guarantee. ISN'T IT WORTH THE MONEY AND TIME TO GO YOURSELF????? I will never understand why people do this. And I don't care if it was your friend, It's a $2500 purchase of an animal that comes with no guarantee.
 
Hey Brian,

One big mistake here!
It's a $2500 purchase of an animal that comes with no guarantee.
Click to expand...

I was told the animal was perfectly healthy and had no problems at all before I bought and he even said if it had any problems he would have bitched at me because I am the one that sold it to him 9 months pryor.

The ONLY guarantee thing was if something happened during shipping then he wasn't responsible. That's it. Everything else was in my opinion to cover his butt. Even his e-mail that he says I agreed to the following was AFTER I had received the bad snake...not before. I could write up anything I want and e-mail it to him and it will hold zero ground in court.

Once again the only stipulation in the deal was he was not responsible if anything happened during shipping.
 
I have never dealt with either party here, and I have no axe to grind either way. That being said, let me just suggest a few things:



Tim,

It is obvious that the animal in question has bee injected with sub-Q fluids. Did you do that? If so, why? If not, did someone with whom you work do that? Again, if so, why?

There is no way that shipping caused the damage that has been done to that snake. Therefore, given the agreement, it seems clear that Tim owes Matt a 100% refund of his money as soon as proper verifying testimony authenticates Matt's allegations of a pre-existing condition made worse by sub-Q injections.



Matt,

You seem to have posted here with great detail and a cool demeanor. Those qualities are always beneficial and appreciated. However, you keep referring to the well-qualified herp vets, and the ten or so experts that have agreed with your assessments. That's fine, but unless you are willing to name them specifically, then using these unnamed sources violates the BOI TOS. I don't know you at all, and I am not questioning your credibility, but the same standards have to apply to you as for everyone else.

Please, post the names of your experts, post the vet report(s), or stop referring to them as evidence to support your position. Thanks for your attention to this request.
 
Darrin

My husband Craig and I have kept emeralds for about 5 years now. We have had 1 litter of 7 babies and currently have three gravid females. Matt spoke extensively with Craig about this before and after he posted on the BOI. I have e-mailed Matt and have also spoken to him. There's 2 names for you.

From the last pic and description, that poor thing was already dead and just didn't know it yet. So Sad! :crap:

Karen Clark
 
Oh, the reason Craig isn't posting too is that he left the country on a business trip today. If he is able to get internet access, I'm sure he'll post.

Karen Clark
 
Hey Darren,

Tony Nicoli, Paul Miles, Joe Polanco, Danny Mendez, Kevin McCurley, Pete Bandre, Craig Clark, Karen Clark, Eugene Bessette, and Ernie Eison to name most of them. Both vert trained under Elliot Jacobson and are very well trained when it comes to reptiles and other exotics.

The vets are still working on the report because there are still tests being performed on her. As of today I do know that the last last approximately 2/3 of her body is literally filled with fluid, there is a large air bubble in her body cavity, the blood is loaded with cocci and spiral bacteria, her liver is not functioning well, her glucose and other related blood sugar stuff is virtually non-existant, she is very dehydrated, she is hypoglycemic and so on. 100% of the people that I have mentioned and that have seen the snake in person say it is IMPOSSIBLE that this happened as a result of shipping. Even though this is all down on paper and I have x-rays I can tell you that Tim Bowles has NO intention of ever paying me. Heck the guy is going on vacation wednesday, probably with my $2,500.00:(
 
I'm having difficulty here...

Matt,
I'm finding it a little bit hard to believe that you didn't at least have some idea of the condition of the snake before you purchased. Yes, Time did go through a lot of trouble to cover his butt on this with you but I'm thinking you understood why. If the snake was in precarious shape then I'd also be picky about how it was shipped. He did sell it to you, but apparently it was reluctantly. Maybe he shouldn't have sold it, but maybe he did it because he truly thought that you were one of the few people that could make it work out. You clearly purchased it "as is" because you accepted the fact that there were no guarantees with this deal. Was this the right thing to do? I'm not sure I would have done it except with someone that I felt could do a better job with a difficult specimen than me. This kind of deal could only have happened with 2 parties where a good relationship already existed. I think that if you wanted to try your luck with a problem animal because of the potential reward for having that locality then you sort of become partners with the seller.
I have no doubt that plenty of folks will not agree with me but I think if you look at it like this and if this is closer to what Tim thought he was getting into than what you are describing then a refund of 1/2 the money would be more appropriate.
Like I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with this assessment but this is the way I'm seeing it from here. Wouldn't hurt if Tim was a little more communicative about this also.
If your reading this Tim then you really have nothing to lose and everything to gain by being more cooperative here. If the sanke was gonna die and you took a chance by selling it to a someone that might turn it around then you also are parnters in this. Give him something back.
 
Thanks for the reply John but you obviously haven't a clue what you are talking about and the majority of your post is completely false. I'm sorry but it's the truth. No hard feelings
 
John,
With all due respect...you're giving Tim a HUGE benefit of doubt.
I could see if this animal was sold at a unbelievable discount that you would be suspicious that this was sold as a rehab case.....but $2500 for an animal on it's death bed?
Tim never admitted the snake had any health problems and insulted the intelligence of everyone here by blaming this all on UPS shipping.
This snake was only sold with no guarantee because the shipping method that Matt chose (obviously a big mistake in retrospect).
....I'm not sure I've ever seen such a clear cut case of who's at fault on the BOI.

1/2 a refund? I'd be suing his ass for the entire amount of the snake, vet bills to prove his case, court costs, etc.
 
Hey Chris and everyone else,

This snake was only sold with no guarantee because the shipping method that Matt chose (obviously a big mistake in retrospect).
Click to expand...

This statement is completely false, ok. The ONLY stipulation to the deal was that if something happened to the animal during shipping then Tim was not responsible for it. DURING SHIPPING. I would NEVER agree to an animal in 'as is' condition. Even if this animal was $50.00 in 'as is' condition I wouldn't have taken it. It will be worked out sooner or later in the proper environment.
 
I Don't recall anywhere in this thread where it reads that the snake was purchased "as is"




Al Nunez
 
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