Mickey_TLK
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- Joined
- Apr 10, 2002
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- Age
- 50
- Location
- 6201 Maple St Omaha NE 68104
Well I hate to do this but Im PISSED so here goes.
About a month ago I inquired on and then purchased at 10 lot of HEALTHY CAPTIVE BRED male panther chameleons. We waited for weather on my end and then had the chameleons shipped.
Two thursdays ago recieved the animals and was very pleased with them in the beginning. However some background info is needed here.
The day the HEALTHY 10 lot was sent, I was told that "2 animals had slimy mouths, so we replaced them with others". I was told this once they were allready shipped, so nothing could have been done. Didnt think much of it, actually thought it was good they checked the quality.
As I said when I got them in, for the most part I was very happy, in fact I posted a "good guy thread" on them here. However I did let a couple things "slide" that in hindsight I should have been more vocal about.
When they arrived one older ambanja had a eye closed shut with mucus, that was cleaned and the eye looked good. A couple of the smaller ambanjas were rather thin in the tails for captives, but the eyes looked great, so I assumed all was well.
Here is where it gets tough.
I took the animals to a shop I sell out of the minute they arrived and set them up there, all but one. Each animal was set up in a avt glass/screen cage to themselves. Theese cages are glass on 3 sides with screen on one side and screen on the top (very nice) and seem to work well with chameleons. 2 of them were set up in all screen cages. As I said all were cages SEPERATE from each other and given plenty of branches.
Over the course of a week I checked on them 2 times, and they seemed fine, but I didnt do in depth inspections (again maybe a mistake on my part).
Last wed I went in and all seemed fine, so I left after misting and feeding them. The next day one of the ambanjas died, but I wasnt informed untill friday when I went to the shop again (last friday, almost a week after delivery) At this time I pulled them ALL from the store, and brought them home. I also called chamco.
I was UPFRONT about them haveing been in the shop, and said I couldnt GURUANTEE they were pampered as well as I would have liked, but I did know they were set up properly, and this store is good with chameleons. They have had baby vieleds to mellers in the last few months, with no problems.
I figured at THAT TIME MAYBE the dead one was from the shop not keeping up on the, but I am now 100% POSITIVE THAT WAS NOT THE CASE.
When I got them home I noticed a couple of them were blowing bubbles and had saliva coming out of their mouths. One was very bad, a couple just a bit. At that time I contacted chamco, and told them about the dead one, and the one with the saliva.
They told me the ones THEY had this problem with, the ones THEY DID NOT SHIP TO ME BECAUSE OF THIS, were being treated by useing a q tip to remove the exess saliva. They said this seemed to work, and was what their vet had said to do.
At this time I told them my local vet SUCKED and would like to know what their vet was telling them (as he is there weekly they say). Thets when the q tip solution was mentioned. I asked if I should have fecals run, and they said 100% no need, as there was NO WAY THEY HAD PARISITES.
This put my mind to ease, and I took their advice with the q tips.
Well for the last week I hav been q tipping 6 of the 9 that are left. Of thoose HEALTHY ANIMALS that I was sent 2 have eye problems.
All seem to be eating and have good weight, but the problem seems to be getting worse. One has a swollen throat area, and the original one that I noticed the saliva on is VERY STRESSED and Im not positive its eating.
I emailed them again today (as I do not have a phone number anymore) and told them of the problem. Their responce is to take them to a vet. Well I have two problems with this.
FIRST I PURCHSED 10 HEALTHY CAPTIVE BRED PANTHERS. In less then 2 weeks I have 1 dead, 6 in bad shape. Now Im supposed to pay more for vet bills on top.
SECOND I CANT GET THEM IN THE VET UNTILL MONDAY 12:30. This means they will only get worse till then.
Now I know peopla are going to say you cant expect a 2 week guruantee, and this and that. But I will say this.
I am experienced in keeping panthers, both captive and wild caught. I also did not press the issue in the start as I wanted to work with theese guys more in the future, and I wasnt 100% sure that it wasnt something on my end at the store.
However with what Im seeing in theese animals, in the time frame Im seeing it, I know its something they had allready. The eye infections, mucus, all of that wouldnt just jump up overnight on healthy panthers, especially ones that had similar problems with prior to shipping.
If it were me, I would not do business with them if this is the way they are going to treat me. I emailed them hours ago about the issues, and got this email.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Mickey,
This is Jim, Mike's business partner. This is the first that I have
gotten involved with your concerns.
Everything that you are describing would seem to point towards some sort
of pathogen, especially since similar symtoms are showing up in more than
one animal. If it were just one animal, you could discount it more easily
as a mal-adjusted animal. Unfortunately, the first response in such cases
is to have a culture done, and in this case, more than one. Even a
non-chameleon vet should be able to culture for pathogens, and it sounds
like there are plenty of mouths to pick from, and the mucous or any apparent
sore would be where to start. I would pick the two animals that are most
typical of whatever problems you see. If you wanted to send any animal to
the Tampa show, we would have it cultured that Monday after. But time is
working against you here, and any of the local things that you are doing by
alternating misting, swagging, etc, is not likely to have much success ...
kind of a bandaid where stronger medicine is needed. Our vet is Ivan
Alfonso, who is very familiar with chameleons. He is due out for one of his
regular "herd checks" this Saturday afternoon, but I can assure you that he
would prescribe culturing some of the animals immediately. He will not
prescribe, or even suggest, any prescription drug treatment for an animal
that he has not personally evaluated. If you are able to get a couple of
cultures done, and can email us the results (should your vet be that
clueless), Ivan will call your vet to assist in prescribing dose rates, etc,
as your vet may not have that knowledge, but we need those results to know
if pathogens are present, and what drugs they are sensitive to. In the
meantime, just follow good basic husbandry rules awaiting the results. If
and when the animals are put on an antibiotic, it is sometimes necessary to
increase hydration, but that will depend on the antibiotic or other drug. I
fear that doing nothing may be fatal to the affected animals, and waiting
until the Tampa show, which also means waiting the few weekdays afterwards
for test results, and a prescription that would have to be filled locally,
may be equally fatal.
You mention the speculation of the eye problems possibly being related
to the other concerns. It is highly likely, although not necessarily that
the same pathogen is in the eyes, rather that the animal is debilitating,
and the eye closings are symptomatic of a sick animal. Sometimes an odd
animal here and there will have an eye problem relating to shipping, but it
usually clears once the animal is rehydrated. Continuous eye closing is
indicative of either a problem specific to that eye, or some other illness
that is causing the animal to be lethargic at times, and eventually waste
away.
On the upside, if you are able to get a couple of cultures done locally,
you can apply that knowledge (and medication) to other animals in the
future, should you see this again. I am going to forward your email to
Ivan, who will not see it until later tonight, and will forward you any
reply. It could be late before he responds. Hope this has helped. Jim
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I emailed them back saying I was unhappy with the responce, and animals, and would like to know what they would do about it. I would have called but I STILL DONT HAVE A NUMBER as they do not put it on return emails. This is the email I sent that got the responce above
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hey guys
Im starting to get a bit discouraged here, and could use some help.
Now I still have one that is "runny mouthed" that I started with when I called you, but on top of that it seems I have another 4 or 5 that are. One of them is a larger tamatave that I thought was fine, but noticed today that it seemed to be swollen around its neck. After fighting with it to get it to open its mouth, I realized it is runny mouthed. However its not comoing out the sides like the others, its further back in the throat (behind the tounge, and very far back). It took about 15 qtips to finnally pull most of it out.
It seems the q tips help, but dont solve the problem. I am considering NOT MISTING today and maybe tommorow, and dry them out a bit to see if it helps. They all seem well hydrated, and most are eating, but the problems are makeing me unable to sell them. I am no longer advertising them, and not sure if I should ship the one I allready sold. Luckily that person just bought a "ambanja" and not a exact animal so I have 4 to choose from. However 2 are smaller (but seem pretty good) and the largest ambanja you sent me has eye problems. (both eyes keep crusting shut, I noticed one was like that when I pulled him from the bag, figured it was from the cloth). I also have 2 others that are showing eye problems.
Ive never had problems like this with panthers before, and Ive had a few (no where near as many as you guys Im sure). Im not trying to be a pain or bull <font color=red>[bleep]</font> you guys, as I really do like the looks of them. Its just SOMETHING is deffinatley wrong with theese guys, and I dont want to loose anymore. As I said before my local vet is clueless, so any help would be great.
Also you said you no longer had any doing this, but if you did in the future you would culture the saliva. I would be willing to send one of them with Justin to the Tampa show, and as long as it survived the trip you could have the saliva cultured, cause Ive got 5-6 total that Im sure we can get some from.
I also noticed the saliva is very STICKY almost like glue when it dries. Im sure this causes them to choke, and accounts for them going to the bottom of the cage as the day goes on and the saliva builds up. Im also wondering if the eye problems are related to the saliva.
I would hae called, but my wife erased the caller id, and I dont have your number on file. I can take pics of all of this, no problem if you need me to.
Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
402-934-9906
****************************************************
I have not had ANY COMPENSATION OFFERED for this deal. I had not asked for any prior to the responce I recieved. After the responce I sent a email asking what they would do to rectify the situation, and that I couldnt see a vet for another 4 days, and have yet to hear from them.
If they stand behind their animals, I would suggest they offer to refund the price for the 9 I have on hand minus shipipng. And I will send them back. I did not ask for anything but GOOD ANIMALS, and have not recieved them. I did not ask for anything when one died, as I gave them the benifit of the doubt. However now Im PISSED and I want a refund....
Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
About a month ago I inquired on and then purchased at 10 lot of HEALTHY CAPTIVE BRED male panther chameleons. We waited for weather on my end and then had the chameleons shipped.
Two thursdays ago recieved the animals and was very pleased with them in the beginning. However some background info is needed here.
The day the HEALTHY 10 lot was sent, I was told that "2 animals had slimy mouths, so we replaced them with others". I was told this once they were allready shipped, so nothing could have been done. Didnt think much of it, actually thought it was good they checked the quality.
As I said when I got them in, for the most part I was very happy, in fact I posted a "good guy thread" on them here. However I did let a couple things "slide" that in hindsight I should have been more vocal about.
When they arrived one older ambanja had a eye closed shut with mucus, that was cleaned and the eye looked good. A couple of the smaller ambanjas were rather thin in the tails for captives, but the eyes looked great, so I assumed all was well.
Here is where it gets tough.
I took the animals to a shop I sell out of the minute they arrived and set them up there, all but one. Each animal was set up in a avt glass/screen cage to themselves. Theese cages are glass on 3 sides with screen on one side and screen on the top (very nice) and seem to work well with chameleons. 2 of them were set up in all screen cages. As I said all were cages SEPERATE from each other and given plenty of branches.
Over the course of a week I checked on them 2 times, and they seemed fine, but I didnt do in depth inspections (again maybe a mistake on my part).
Last wed I went in and all seemed fine, so I left after misting and feeding them. The next day one of the ambanjas died, but I wasnt informed untill friday when I went to the shop again (last friday, almost a week after delivery) At this time I pulled them ALL from the store, and brought them home. I also called chamco.
I was UPFRONT about them haveing been in the shop, and said I couldnt GURUANTEE they were pampered as well as I would have liked, but I did know they were set up properly, and this store is good with chameleons. They have had baby vieleds to mellers in the last few months, with no problems.
I figured at THAT TIME MAYBE the dead one was from the shop not keeping up on the, but I am now 100% POSITIVE THAT WAS NOT THE CASE.
When I got them home I noticed a couple of them were blowing bubbles and had saliva coming out of their mouths. One was very bad, a couple just a bit. At that time I contacted chamco, and told them about the dead one, and the one with the saliva.
They told me the ones THEY had this problem with, the ones THEY DID NOT SHIP TO ME BECAUSE OF THIS, were being treated by useing a q tip to remove the exess saliva. They said this seemed to work, and was what their vet had said to do.
At this time I told them my local vet SUCKED and would like to know what their vet was telling them (as he is there weekly they say). Thets when the q tip solution was mentioned. I asked if I should have fecals run, and they said 100% no need, as there was NO WAY THEY HAD PARISITES.
This put my mind to ease, and I took their advice with the q tips.
Well for the last week I hav been q tipping 6 of the 9 that are left. Of thoose HEALTHY ANIMALS that I was sent 2 have eye problems.
All seem to be eating and have good weight, but the problem seems to be getting worse. One has a swollen throat area, and the original one that I noticed the saliva on is VERY STRESSED and Im not positive its eating.
I emailed them again today (as I do not have a phone number anymore) and told them of the problem. Their responce is to take them to a vet. Well I have two problems with this.
FIRST I PURCHSED 10 HEALTHY CAPTIVE BRED PANTHERS. In less then 2 weeks I have 1 dead, 6 in bad shape. Now Im supposed to pay more for vet bills on top.
SECOND I CANT GET THEM IN THE VET UNTILL MONDAY 12:30. This means they will only get worse till then.
Now I know peopla are going to say you cant expect a 2 week guruantee, and this and that. But I will say this.
I am experienced in keeping panthers, both captive and wild caught. I also did not press the issue in the start as I wanted to work with theese guys more in the future, and I wasnt 100% sure that it wasnt something on my end at the store.
However with what Im seeing in theese animals, in the time frame Im seeing it, I know its something they had allready. The eye infections, mucus, all of that wouldnt just jump up overnight on healthy panthers, especially ones that had similar problems with prior to shipping.
If it were me, I would not do business with them if this is the way they are going to treat me. I emailed them hours ago about the issues, and got this email.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Mickey,
This is Jim, Mike's business partner. This is the first that I have
gotten involved with your concerns.
Everything that you are describing would seem to point towards some sort
of pathogen, especially since similar symtoms are showing up in more than
one animal. If it were just one animal, you could discount it more easily
as a mal-adjusted animal. Unfortunately, the first response in such cases
is to have a culture done, and in this case, more than one. Even a
non-chameleon vet should be able to culture for pathogens, and it sounds
like there are plenty of mouths to pick from, and the mucous or any apparent
sore would be where to start. I would pick the two animals that are most
typical of whatever problems you see. If you wanted to send any animal to
the Tampa show, we would have it cultured that Monday after. But time is
working against you here, and any of the local things that you are doing by
alternating misting, swagging, etc, is not likely to have much success ...
kind of a bandaid where stronger medicine is needed. Our vet is Ivan
Alfonso, who is very familiar with chameleons. He is due out for one of his
regular "herd checks" this Saturday afternoon, but I can assure you that he
would prescribe culturing some of the animals immediately. He will not
prescribe, or even suggest, any prescription drug treatment for an animal
that he has not personally evaluated. If you are able to get a couple of
cultures done, and can email us the results (should your vet be that
clueless), Ivan will call your vet to assist in prescribing dose rates, etc,
as your vet may not have that knowledge, but we need those results to know
if pathogens are present, and what drugs they are sensitive to. In the
meantime, just follow good basic husbandry rules awaiting the results. If
and when the animals are put on an antibiotic, it is sometimes necessary to
increase hydration, but that will depend on the antibiotic or other drug. I
fear that doing nothing may be fatal to the affected animals, and waiting
until the Tampa show, which also means waiting the few weekdays afterwards
for test results, and a prescription that would have to be filled locally,
may be equally fatal.
You mention the speculation of the eye problems possibly being related
to the other concerns. It is highly likely, although not necessarily that
the same pathogen is in the eyes, rather that the animal is debilitating,
and the eye closings are symptomatic of a sick animal. Sometimes an odd
animal here and there will have an eye problem relating to shipping, but it
usually clears once the animal is rehydrated. Continuous eye closing is
indicative of either a problem specific to that eye, or some other illness
that is causing the animal to be lethargic at times, and eventually waste
away.
On the upside, if you are able to get a couple of cultures done locally,
you can apply that knowledge (and medication) to other animals in the
future, should you see this again. I am going to forward your email to
Ivan, who will not see it until later tonight, and will forward you any
reply. It could be late before he responds. Hope this has helped. Jim
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I emailed them back saying I was unhappy with the responce, and animals, and would like to know what they would do about it. I would have called but I STILL DONT HAVE A NUMBER as they do not put it on return emails. This is the email I sent that got the responce above
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hey guys
Im starting to get a bit discouraged here, and could use some help.
Now I still have one that is "runny mouthed" that I started with when I called you, but on top of that it seems I have another 4 or 5 that are. One of them is a larger tamatave that I thought was fine, but noticed today that it seemed to be swollen around its neck. After fighting with it to get it to open its mouth, I realized it is runny mouthed. However its not comoing out the sides like the others, its further back in the throat (behind the tounge, and very far back). It took about 15 qtips to finnally pull most of it out.
It seems the q tips help, but dont solve the problem. I am considering NOT MISTING today and maybe tommorow, and dry them out a bit to see if it helps. They all seem well hydrated, and most are eating, but the problems are makeing me unable to sell them. I am no longer advertising them, and not sure if I should ship the one I allready sold. Luckily that person just bought a "ambanja" and not a exact animal so I have 4 to choose from. However 2 are smaller (but seem pretty good) and the largest ambanja you sent me has eye problems. (both eyes keep crusting shut, I noticed one was like that when I pulled him from the bag, figured it was from the cloth). I also have 2 others that are showing eye problems.
Ive never had problems like this with panthers before, and Ive had a few (no where near as many as you guys Im sure). Im not trying to be a pain or bull <font color=red>[bleep]</font> you guys, as I really do like the looks of them. Its just SOMETHING is deffinatley wrong with theese guys, and I dont want to loose anymore. As I said before my local vet is clueless, so any help would be great.
Also you said you no longer had any doing this, but if you did in the future you would culture the saliva. I would be willing to send one of them with Justin to the Tampa show, and as long as it survived the trip you could have the saliva cultured, cause Ive got 5-6 total that Im sure we can get some from.
I also noticed the saliva is very STICKY almost like glue when it dries. Im sure this causes them to choke, and accounts for them going to the bottom of the cage as the day goes on and the saliva builds up. Im also wondering if the eye problems are related to the saliva.
I would hae called, but my wife erased the caller id, and I dont have your number on file. I can take pics of all of this, no problem if you need me to.
Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
402-934-9906
****************************************************
I have not had ANY COMPENSATION OFFERED for this deal. I had not asked for any prior to the responce I recieved. After the responce I sent a email asking what they would do to rectify the situation, and that I couldnt see a vet for another 4 days, and have yet to hear from them.
If they stand behind their animals, I would suggest they offer to refund the price for the 9 I have on hand minus shipipng. And I will send them back. I did not ask for anything but GOOD ANIMALS, and have not recieved them. I did not ask for anything when one died, as I gave them the benifit of the doubt. However now Im PISSED and I want a refund....
Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
