Need opinions on a deal with Cham CO

[The BoidSmith]

Mickey,

I'm glad everything worked out the way it had. Just by reading the e-mail they sent you one could tell right away they were genuinely concerned and wanted to be helpful.

Good luck!

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Scott

Im not dodging your questions, sorry it took so long to respond.

The animals were only at the store for 1 week, and have been in my care at home for the other week and a day.

The animals were put directly ON DISPLAY in individual cages. The cages were set up by me, and care was gone over witht he store owner, the fish manager (actually store manager), and the reptile manager. Also all of the employees keep her;s as pets at home themselves (you know how 16 year old kids that work at shops are).

I purchased the panthers for instant resale. The store actually had standing orders for them. I did not intend to have the animals much more then a couple of weeks.

While I agree in a perfect world they would have been isolated for a few weeks before being put on display, but I didnt have that luxury at the time.

On a side not part of the "stress" Ive been under is setting up my own shop that is to open on the first of the month. At that time I will have plenty of room to do as I feel fit with my animals prior to sale. As such I plan to quarintine all animals prior to sale to avoid situations caused by stress. On the same note this situation has caused alot of stress between me and the local shop I sell out of. I was rather harsh with the employees and basically blamed them for killing "perfectly healthy panthers". Now I feel like a JERK for haveing done soo, after seeing the ongoing problems Im haveing with them, even while giving them my best care.

Now I am done posting as I dont want to keep this issue to the front, and I honestly dont feel I have anything new to add. I will however post an update when all details of the deal are finalized, just to clear the air.

Sorry to anyone I have offended with this post.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[herpcondo]

I can feel the pain of the buyer ( Mickey) as i have been on the recieving end of a bad deal,,, but i can also see the dealers side which to me speak pretty loud and clear,,, They fulfilled there end of the deal,, they sent the 10 Chams in a timely manner, and they sent Chams that were good enough to warrant a "good guy " post... Now if they warranted a good guy post from the start why after 2 weeks of Chams being in a customers hands should they be subjected to a post that infers the animals were subpar and not the standard that was paid for ,,,,, no dealer in the world can control what a customer does with the animals,,,,i mean if the customers power is unhooked by the electric company for non payment should the seller be responsible for all the Chams getting URIs,, or dying..? ( not saying that is what happened)well the answer is no,,,, if they fulfilled there end of the bargain, and The matter was not brought up in the time frame of there TOS, then are they at fault..? no,,,, But They did what they thought was the right thing,,, and are trying to make Mickey happy,,,
I guess my point to all of this is really simple,,, is it fair for someone to tarnish a companies name after 2 weeks, 3 weeks 2 months,,? where does it stop..?
Also Mickey don't send me any more emails if you have something to say, say it in this thread,,,
sending me an email saying they were at fault and also saying ( and i quote) " Do I believe had I not posted there I would have gotten anything offered NO."
Also saying "Of course I am now working with Cham Co and they have made offers that WERE NEVER MADE BEFORE THE BOI POST. They say, and I want to believe them, that they were going to offer restitution any ways. Who knows."
This to me is abuse of what the BOI is here for,, it is not here in my opinion for someone to "blackmail" someone to get there way,,, it is here to provide honest information about a company or deal with someone to let others know how there deal turned out,,, GOOD , Bad or OTHER,,, and to help us all as a community to police the bad guys and honor the true good guys in the reptile world,,, I mean even after the apology,,, and all the stuff Mickey said good about Chamco now,,, Would someone still have doubts about dealing with Chamco..? No matter how small those doubts may be..? Also does Chamco deserve that..? When i say again, they fulfilled there end of the deal, and met there TOS, a good guy post was posted and only after 2 weeks, this thread comes up......
I THINK NOT!!

 

[Mickey_TLK]

OK Joe, I will address you here.

Yes I emailed my honest opinion on the usefullness of this board in the situation.

Yes I agree normally a company cannot be help responsible for two weeks.

However I made the issues of problems clear to them after a week, atleast as clear as they were to me.

Im sure by the post you made, and my responce, any chance of clearing the air here is going away fast, and soo be it.

Did I try and Black Mail them as you said

NO

Did I try and get what I FEEL was due to me, some restitution for the animals

YES

Does everyone agree

NO

I understand peopler guruantees, ect. I also understand doing the right thing. I pride myself on care prior and after sales. However I am sad to say VERY FEW of my suppliers offer me this same protection. As such I am getting more and more militant with my posts here towards bad guys, and deals that go wrong.

As a business I am well aware it is dangerous for me to post my TURE OPINIONS on this board, as people could use them against me, or choose not to sell to me. That is fine.

I would rather have people pass on a sale to me then to sell me crap animals.

Now I will again say theese arent CRAP ANIMALS, but they are also NOT WHAT I ORDERED. Im trying to be diplomatic here. I understand there is an large group of people reading this, and the statements stick.

Tell me this. If you contact a seller after a week about a dead animal, and others with problems. Ask if you should see a vet or trust them, and they say trust them, and then after another week things get worse. You email, no reply for a few hours after you finally show how angry you are, would you not feel your not going to be taken care of.

Yes I jumped the gun a bit on my post. But as I said in the email, in my heart of hearts I cant help but feel like had I not posted here I wouldnt have been offered any compensation. They had a weeks time they were aware of my issues. I also asked them to talk to their vet and give me ideas. Never got a call. Had they TREULY BEEN WORRIED ABOUT THE ANIMALS THAT FIRST WEEK they would have emailed or called asked how the group was. Thats ALSO MY OPINION.

Now 2 hours after posting here, I am suddenly given options for dealing with the situation. I am also TOLD that no offer would be good without a full retraction PRIOR to any refunds being issued.

That is why I said my feelings that you quoted, and I cant help but THINK that.

Now again I will say that Cham Co has made what is MORE THEN A FAIR OFFER to me. However I am trying to negotiate a FAIR OFFER. Thats the whole point, Im not trying to come up on this deal. Im just trying to ge what I paid for.

I paid for 10 cb flawless panthers ready for resale. I paid 1200 CASH UP FRONT for this group. I also have spent MANY MANY MANY thousands of dollars in the last week setting up my shop. As such I would love to be selling theese animals to people who wanted to buy them, but I cant as I dont feel comfortable.

Does that make me a bad guy?

yes there are two sides to every story, even a 10 year old like myself can see that. I have tried to be as honest and upfront in this whole process as I can be. If I wanted I could have lied and claimed the animals were in my care the entire time.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[herpcondo]

Tell me this. If you contact a seller after a week about a dead animal, and others with problems. Ask if you should see a vet or trust them, and they say trust them, and then after another week things get worse. You email, no reply for a few hours after you finally show how angry you are, would you not feel your not going to be taken care of.

I guess my point is after a "good guy" post showing you were obviously happy with the animals, and the time frame being out of the TOS why should you expect them to do anything for you..?( most dealers would offer advice or some help) but why should you expect it..?

As a business I am well aware it is dangerous for me to post my TURE OPINIONS on this board, as people could use them against me, or choose not to sell to me. That is fine.

Why not just post the facts,, and not your opinions,,, ?
What has really got my goat about this is really simple,,, if the Chams were bad from the start why post a "good guy post"?
second: why after 2 weeks and after a "good guy" post and out of their clearly posted TOS would you think they owed you anything..?
third: If the animals were as bad as you claim why would you accept a partial refund on the basis of a retraction..?
That is changing your story just to get the refund,,,
It just seems to me like you will do or say what ever it takes to get the refund,, in total disreguard for Chamcos reputation, or the true facts,,, Who know what the fact are,, but it is very clear you are willing to change the story very quickly to get the refund that is for sure!!!

 

[Mickey_TLK]

"If the animals were as bad as you claim why would you accept a partial refund on the basis of a retraction..? "

As I said the animals are sub par, not on deaths door. I am confident with a vet visit, and some extra care I call pull them through. Also I am willing to accept that we will likely NEVER know who is to blame here, myself or cham co. So I am open to negotiate something that works for both parties.

I am not trying to demand anything, I havent all along. I am trying to NEGOTIATE a solution that makes both of us as comfortable with the situation as possible. I understand there are risk involved in live animals. However when I started this thread NO OFFERS were being made at all, and I was looking at 1 dead, 2 pretty bad off animals, and 4 more that I was unsure of. I was also looking at vet bills. At that time, had no offers been made, yes I would have felt Cham Co to be "bad guys". I would have stated my opinions, and that would have been that.

Instead Cham Co offered to work with me, after I had posted. We can argue that I posted to soon, or that there would never have been a offer, again we will never know. As such I am willing to accept them at their word that I was too quick to come here, and restitution would be offered.

That is why I would consider working with them rather then DEMANDING anything. Thats not my intention.

"but it is very clear you are willing to change the story very quickly to get the refund that is for sure"

To this I will say I have not changed my story, if you feel I have Im sorry. I will also say I have turned down a full refund, and am looking for a solution that is acceptable.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Joe

One last thing. You mention the time, and why I would think they "owe me" anything. Thats hard to answer, but let me explain a little more deaply.

I have been talking with them for months about getting large lots of panthers from them. We are talking up to 100 lots. I had every intention of dealing with this company for a long time to come.

This was not just a one time order, this was the FIRST deal in what was hoped to be an ongoing business relationship. As such I hoped by working with them nicely I would be able to solve this quietly. Maybe I came here to early and that is what I have appologized for.

I have many suppliers I have ongoing relationships with, that at times things happen. None of theese have ever hit the boi, and thats because the situation was dealt with properly from the beggining. Now I admit I could be partially to blame here for coming to the boi to early, but I felt it was my only recourse.

I have a guy I purchsed 1oo's of torts from this year, and many hundreds over the last few years. Prior to this year I had a 100% survival rate with his animals. However the last 50 I got this year came in a bit "off". I emailed him when they arrived and said all looked great, as they did. However within a week one died. And after another week 4 more died. It turned out he had others at his facility that were doing the same thing, and had lost 30 or soo himself. This took over 3 months to sort out, and I have still yet to get any compensation. However from the start it was made clear to me by my supplier that I would be taken care of. We worked together to figure out the problem, and I will not go any further.

I could tell many stories like this, so I hope you can see why I myelf felt I was due somthing, anything, more then just "take them to the vet" like I was just some customer. I felt more like I was going to be a business relationship, and that was not the foot I wanted it started on.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[herpcondo]

not changed your story..?

. I did not ask for anything but GOOD ANIMALS, and have not recieved them. I did not ask for anything when one died, as I gave them the benifit of the doubt. However now Im PISSED and I want a refund....

and here a few replies later...

I also want to state the animals they sent me are TOP NOTCCH LOOKING ANIMAL.

'


please tell me how you meant these 2 statements then please...
as i only took them at face value,,, word for word!!!

I hope you get a partial refund,,

To the GUYS of Chamco,,,
I FOR ONE COMMEND YOU FOR DOING WHAT IT TAKES WAY BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY TO MAKE YOUR CUSTOMERS HAPPY!
I WILL BE LOOKING YOU UP IN THE FUTURE,,,

 

[HRoss]

to joe reagan

i have a problem beyond their one week terms of service. that is in the first post, i am to understand that they were pulling chameleons from the original shipment due to resp. infection (at a minimum). to me shipping a panther while your others are known to be infected is negligent.

this is not to inflame joe. i just see such animosity; when i myself see the seller as potentially liable for the spread of a disease to other collections.
Howard Ross

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I just had a very long, civil, and inteligent conversation with Jim from Cham Co.

He will be posting here at some point tonight.

I ask as a favor to them if nothing else, that EVERYONE stops posting untill after their post has been made.

I hope the post once made will clear the air for all, and resolve this siturtation.

I will close with I am more then happy with the situation the way it stands now. We were able to work a solution that only a PROFESIONAL TOP NOTCH COMPANY would even be able to consider offering. I will say I actually had to argue to keep them from offering too much in return.

Thank you for your patience Jim and Mike (and sorry for the typos on your name Mike).

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[Chameleon Company]

Our Thanks

To all concerned parties, especially those that posted here, we thank you for the dialogue. Sometimes this is a tough place to red things, but we're customers too, and it comes with the turf. This entire episode came upon us quickly, due in part to communication lapses that we here at Chamco will improve upon. We have had some very sincere and in-depth communications with Mickey outside of this forum in the last 24 hours. He has been professional and completely forthright throughout, and in spite of what some of the initial posting seems to be on the surface, based on these discussions, we understand completely the reasons for his well-placed frustration. It has been a genuine pleasure to work with him on resolving this issue. Mickey, we publicly applaud you not only for your demeanor in our negotiations, but also for your commitment to the well-being of the animals and your customers as you pulled them from the stores when the problem was first noticed.

 

[Chameleon Company]

To Tod Howard

Tod, referring to your post on page three. We ship many animals here, and unfortunately have no specific recollection of either your order or follow-up concerns. Our computer went down in early December, and we lost relevent email files on many accounts. Our manual records are coming up blank too. Could you email us at [email protected], and forward any relevent communications, dates, specifics, etc? If things happened as you say, then we have an unresolved problem.
Again, thanks Mickey, and thanks for all that took the time to contribute.

Jim Flaherty & Michael Cole

 

[Chameleon Company]

As for the chameleons

The affected chameleons will be back here with us late tonight, and will be evaluated by a top-notch veterinarian, Dr. Ivan Alfonso, tomorrow. Cultures, blood work, etc, is all on the agenda. We know of no better hands in which to entrust them at this point. We hope to save and rehab them all ..... but whatever the outcome, we will have expanded our knowledge, and it will be put to good use.

Jim & Mike

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I verify everything Chamco has just posted to be the truth as best as we can put it at this point.

I too hope the animals will pull through, and with the vet care lined up for them I am comfortable in sending them back via delta. As such this was done about a half hour ago, and as Chamco stated they will have them tonight.

I am very sorry for the frustration involved in this thread for everyone, and have learned a few lessons myself.

I hope I have been as fair and as clear as possible in this very diluted issue. I acknowladge my part in the wrongs commited here.

I will now bow at as promised before, as I have many things that need my attention.

Lastly to Joe. I did not mean to get into any sort of war with you on this issue, and as such hold no ill will. I understand your point of view completely. I also hope that you understand my email that I sent to you was to try and help fill you in more fully on the situation without haveing to continue to pull the thread to the top while working to solve the problem. Just so you are aware of it, you are the only person I contacted off the boi about this thread. I dont normally email outside posts, as I too agree its generally best kept on the boi. I hope you can accept my reasoning.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles