Negative karma messages

[Lucille]

Recently, a seller sent a karma message that was funny because of the seller's obvious incompetence in saying what they looked like they were trying to say, a vague threat about 'slander': " Slander, harassment, and deformation of character is not looked upon lightly."

What made it relevant is that it looked to be a tool to try to hush the recipients BOI comments; what made it additionally relevant is that the same message was sent to several people who opposed the seller's actions on the BOI.

The karma comment was repeated in the BOI, and comments made, and opinions formed about the seller using such tactics. Until several people wrote about the comments they received, no one realized that the karma system seemed to have been used as a tool to attempt to silence posters in the BOI.

Fortunately, there are those here who are not easily silenced. But is the attempt by the seller to quash conversation about the seller a BOI relevant subject?

Such comments can always be forwarded to moderators for their consideration. But my own opinion is that private comments whether karma or pm, used as attempts to influence, are relevant as an additional pieces of information in assessing whether to do business with a seller.

 

[hhmoore]

For the record, it was not your initial post that spurred my comment. It was the string of people chiming in about how they got negative karma.
Since you're talking about karma being used as a tool to attempt to silence people, does it not bear consideration that the tool was broken before it was even wielded? A person with a negative karma score simply cannot impact anybody else's karma. They can go through the motions, and submit it; but, since they have no karma power, there is nothing to deduct from the recipient. (That's why everybody's karma message showed a grey box, as opposed to a red one.)

 

[Lucille]

For the record, it was not your initial post that spurred my comment. It was the string of people chiming in about how they got negative karma.
Since you're talking about karma being used as a tool to attempt to silence people, does it not bear consideration that the tool was broken before it was even wielded? A person with a negative karma score simply cannot impact anybody else's karma. They can go through the motions, and submit it; but, since they have no karma power, there is nothing to deduct from the recipient. (That's why everybody's karma message showed a grey box, as opposed to a red one.)

Harald,

It is not the karma itself, it is the content of the comments that I am referencing. And those chiming in provided information, that this seller was attempting to silence them with the seller's ludicrous threat of 'slander' the same as the seller tried to silence me. The threat was not the red or gray box, the threat was the reference, however ludicrous, to legal action.

Harald please understand that I respect what you think, and I ask that you consider whether sometimes the karma system can be misused, and am simply asking that you consider whether the attempt to misuse it to silence those who post their opinion about a particular seller is a BOI worthy subject.

I have deliberately included no names here out of respect for the board's rule that BOI subjects be kept in the BOI.

 

[WebSlave]

Generally speaking these frivolous lawsuit threats are a lot of "bark" but no "bite". Most people don't realize the expense such a lawsuit would cost them to pursue, even if they could get an attorney interested in taking a case of that nature. Quite honestly, people who have to defraud their customers (and I am not accusing anyone of doing so, just making a general statement) so they can keep their nickle and dime ill gotten gains are not going to have anywhere near the amount of money it would take to launch a real lawsuit.

Apparently many people use the phrase "I'm contacting my attorney", much like children will say "I'm telling my mommy!".

 

[Lucille]

My question is whether such threats are relevant in assessing a seller. I think they are, and I think that mentioning that a seller has done this is an acceptable piece of information on the BOI, whether it was done via karma or PM.

Whether or not something like that is a harmless bark, it says something about a seller, I think, that they would go privately bark at one poster after another. I would not want to deal with someone who threatened to call their mommy every time things were not going their way.

Saying 'so-and-so gave me bad karma' may be a waste of bandwidth and not an acceptable use of the BOI. But saying 'so-and-so threatened a lawsuit because they didn't like what I said' is worthy of mention, IMHO, as an indication of what kind of person the seller is, even if done as a karma comment.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I understand what you're saying Lucille. It's not the karma or the comment left with it, but what you might consider the reason behind it, an attempt (albeit a poor one) at getting people to quit posting to the thread, and whether this action is worthy of mention on the BOI.

My personal opinion, not necessarily that of the site or the other mods, is yes it is worth mentioning in an already existing bad guy thread. It's a childish tactic that smacks of desperation, and to me at least, further suggests the bad guy thread was warranted.
However, the problem is any mention of karma in a BOI thread almost always results in the thread being derailed for a time talking about that.
It's impossible to quantify under which conditions it's worthy of mention and when it is not. Kind of like the congressional definition of porn, you know it when you see it.

I can also see this activity as being worthy of a reprimand for abuse of the karma system, especially had he actually been able to affect people's karma score.
That is an even bigger gray area though that can only be taken on a case by case basis. There is no standard by which to judge karma abuse, and it is unlikely that there would ever be one as it is an area where we rarely get involved and when we do it's reluctantly.

 

[Lucille]

I can accept that reasoning and well put, Clay
After thinking about what you wrote, I agree this is almost always a case-by-case type of decision.

 

[hhmoore]

I ask that you consider whether sometimes the karma system can be misused, and am simply asking that you consider whether the attempt to misuse it to silence those who post their opinion about a particular seller is a BOI worthy subject.

Of course the karma system can be misused....as can the Report Post function. I did consider your rationale, which is why I offered my previous response. Perhaps I did fall too easily into an oft stated remark; but, even when the original comments are relevant, when it becomes a series of he gave me negative karma, too and a discussion of whether it impacted anybody's numbers, it quickly deteriorates to the same ol same ol.

 

[alvincent]

Of course the karma system can be misused....as can the Report Post function. I did consider your rationale, which is why I offered my previous response. Perhaps I did fall too easily into an oft stated remark; but, even when the original comments are relevant, when it becomes a series of he gave me negative karma, too and a discussion of whether it impacted anybody's numbers, it quickly deteriorates to the same ol same ol.

You sent me a private message stating that my signature at the time was a problem. I was making boi posts on other threads not relevant to that forum(Because of my signature.) I wanted to ask you how to change my signature so that i do not get warning or infractions but still effectively warn new members. Your inbox was full.

Anyway the only reason I wanted to use signatures that way, is because I saw you and others with Good Guy certification links in your signature. It does the exact same thing that my signature did. Except yours is to make new customers feel comfortable working with someone based on their history. My signature was doing the same thing, only to warn people about businesses.

So indirectly, you and several other members are making irrelevant Board of Index posts every time you post or private message. Which just happens to be the same thing that I did.

I do not understand the substance behind a rule like that. If Board of Index is not supposed to be pulled all throughout the forums, why is it in your and other members signature? You don't have answer this. I just wanted you to know, that YOU were the example I followed in changing my signature. This move is what ultimately got me a warning.

Thank you for reading. Happy Holidays Fauna!

 

[deborahbroadus]

You sent me a private message stating that my signature at the time was a problem. I was making boi posts on other threads not relevant to that forum(Because of my signature.) I wanted to ask you how to change my signature so that i do not get warning or infractions but still effectively warn new members. Your inbox was full.

Anyway the only reason I wanted to use signatures that way, is because I saw you and others with Good Guy certification links in your signature. It does the exact same thing that my signature did. Except yours is to make new customers feel comfortable working with someone based on their history. My signature was doing the same thing, only to warn people about businesses.

So indirectly, you and several other members are making irrelevant Board of Index posts every time you post or private message. Which just happens to be the same thing that I did.

I do not understand the substance behind a rule like that. If Board of Index is not supposed to be pulled all throughout the forums, why is it in your and other members signature? You don't have answer this. I just wanted you to know, that YOU were the example I followed in changing my signature. This move is what ultimately got me a warning.

Thank you for reading. Happy Holidays Fauna!

GG signatures is are self-explanatory...those with the GGC in their signatures are speaking of THEMSELVES and not "bad-mouthing" another member. BOI topics are to stay inside the BOI...(those signatures go everywhere on the forum, including outside the BOI, remember?)

Hope this helped?

 

[Clay Davenport]

First of all, it's the Board of Inquiry not the Board of Index.

I wanted to ask you how to change my signature so that i do not get warning or infractions but still effectively warn new members.

You can't. Information pertaining to bad guys belongs on the BOI and is not allowed to be used in the signature area period.
Should the person you want to warn people about post a classified ad, you are welcome to post a link in their ad to their Bad Guy post, but ONLY a link, not a bunch of commentary instigating a discussion in the classifieds.

Anyway the only reason I wanted to use signatures that way, is because I saw you and others with Good Guy certification links in your signature. It does the exact same thing that my signature did. Except yours is to make new customers feel comfortable working with someone based on their history. My signature was doing the same thing, only to warn people about businesses.

It's not the same thing at all. The GGC program is not part of the BOI. Those with links to their GGC thread are providing information about themselves only. Surely you see the difference between someone posting information about themselves compared to someone posting information about other people.

So indirectly, you and several other members are making irrelevant Board of Index posts every time you post or private message. Which just happens to be the same thing that I did.

Not even indirectly. Refer to the response above.

I just wanted you to know, that YOU were the example I followed in changing my signature.

I seriously doubt that you saw Harald's GGC link in his signature and that's what gave you the idea to post warnings about a bad guy in yours. One has nothing at all to do with the other.

 

[Lucille]

And my thread is about karma and not signature lines, which is off topic. See, its stuff like this which gives me the reputation sometime of not being a total angel

 

[deborahbroadus]

And my thread is about karma and not signature lines, which is off topic. See, its stuff like this which gives me the reputation sometime of not being a total angel

You can not be held responsible for other's inability to comprehend the topic of discussion!

 

[Southern Wolf]

Saying 'so-and-so gave me bad karma' may be a waste of bandwidth and not an acceptable use of the BOI. But saying 'so-and-so threatened a lawsuit because they didn't like what I said' is worthy of mention, IMHO, as an indication of what kind of person the seller is, even if done as a karma comment.

I haven't been on much the last couple of days... been too busy playing mechanic... but I am gonna have to side with Lucille on this one. If someone is sending multiple messages (either via Karma or PM) and is trying to dictate what someone thinks and posts... then that info needs to be put out on the BOI. That adds additional proof to someone's character.

Now if someone just sends neg karma stating... "your a moron" (yes I have gotten this one)... then that has no place on the BOI.

But I think what this topic is about definitely has a place on the BOI. Now off to read the rest of this thread.

 

[alvincent]

And my thread is about karma and not signature lines, which is off topic. See, its stuff like this which gives me the reputation sometime of not being a total angel

true indeed

 

[hhmoore]

I just wanted you to know, that YOU were the example I followed in changing my signature. This move is what ultimately got me a warning.

You are so full of it's actually funny. What you were following was the suggestion of your cohorts in that thread

as you can see from my sig i have added a little something. to me that is the first step and i would like to ask you all to take that step with me. the more people that have a sig like that the more people find out who we do not want to buy from ourselves.

anyone else that's serious about making the change and keeping xxxxxx and all other bad guys from ruining the way reptiles are viewed PLEASE take a stand. Put it in your signature if you care!

Now, I don't know if you were the second, or third person to jump on that bandwagon...but you darn sure weren't the first, so pointing at me as your inspiration is a crock.

 

[hhmoore]

Now, to return to the initial topic.
Just for the sake of discussion, I'd like to know where people would have the line drawn...

If people are giving a member negative karma telling them to get out of the hobby, that they're full of , that they should just give up already, that they will be tracked down, that they would be followed wherever they try to go, along with multiple other negative messages...should that person post the karma on the BOI? I mean, are the two cases all that different? Both involve bluster, and what could be perceived as threats. I doubt the case I just described would be received well, if that person were to post about the karma comments that had been received in a BOI thread. Does the difference have something to do with who is leaving the comments? Whether they hounding, or being hounded?

 

[WebSlave]

Well, maybe this needs to become more focused as an issue and what OUR response should be in instances related to abuse of the karma system.

I am trying to apply more and more pressure to members to get the incidents of personal antagonism and derogatory personal slurs weeded out of the format of the BOI (which implies this entire site as well). Members using the karma function thinking that this will slide under the radar are just mistaken in that belief. Members are certainly welcome to label a post by another as being a "Particularly Bad Post" using the karma system with a comment as an explanation, but the antagonism and BS that often tags along with such comments is going to have to stop.

The moderators are empowered to handle these kinds of situations in whatever method they feel will be most effective in meeting the goals I have set, which will include immediate bans if it appears to be the best method to get the point across. As admin, I can scan all karma comments made from anyone, to anyone, or by everyone in a chronological order. I intend to scan those comments periodically looking for abuses and will deal with them when found. Just a note, that in the past I have researched issues of this nature and found particular members using the karma system solely to give other members negative karma and associated comments, apparently as an effort to just cause static and turmoil within this site. Those people have been evicted from here PERMANENTLY. If there is an apparent feud between two parties, I am NOT going to take my time to try to figure out who started it. If it is not immediately obvious to me, BOTH will get at least a temporary boot. So if you are the target of personal antagonism, I strongly suggest that you report it instead of responding in like kind. Yeah, I know it's tough to do, but if you can't resist, then don't be surprised at the repercussion.

 

[Southern Wolf]

See Harald that is a loaded question. If we just report it like Rich wants us to do, then the readers wont know to what level the BG will stoop to try and shut folks up. But if we put that info on the BOI then we get spanked for it. Either way the BG wins.

This sounds a whole lot like our legal system. It is in place to protect the BG.... not the GG.

Now I have a question for you and the rest of the staff.

In this issue it was apparent that the BG was sending alot of folks neg karma trying to shut them up. Since we aren't supposed to post it... and ya'll want us to report it. THEN ARE YA'LL gonna make a post on the thread showing their intentions?

If the answer is no.... then you leave us no choice but to post it ourselves. In this particular case it just adds proof to the character of those two.

 

[WebSlave]

See Harald that is a loaded question. If we just report it like Rich wants us to do, then the readers wont know to what level the BG will stoop to try and shut folks up. But if we put that info on the BOI then we get spanked for it. Either way the BG wins.

This sounds a whole lot like our legal system. It is in place to protect the BG.... not the GG.

Now I have a question for you and the rest of the staff.

In this issue it was apparent that the BG was sending alot of folks neg karma trying to shut them up. Since we aren't supposed to post it... and ya'll want us to report it. THEN ARE YA'LL gonna make a post on the thread showing their intentions?

If the answer is no.... then you leave us no choice but to post it ourselves. In this particular case it just adds proof to the character of those two.

Well maybe we aren't talking about the same thing.

If someone threatens you with lawsuits, then that is NOT personally derogatory at all, now is it? But if someone calls you personally degrading names, uses profanity, or otherwise uses language that would not be appropriate in the open forums, then that is the sort of activity that I want to come down hard on.

Someone posting what someone else posted in a karma comment (as long as the profanity is reasonably edited out) will not get themselves in trouble. However, if that person responds in like kind, then yes, they are going to find themselves in hot water as well, because yes, they did just stoop to the level of the OP.

I'm not sure how you got that turned around in your mind to think what I said was in any way an attempt to protect the bad guys...

But to be quite pointed about this, if a bad guy belittles someone and then that someone turns around and responds with their own derogatory belittlement attempts, then in my eyes, there is really no difference between the two when what they have posted is viewed objectively. Two wrongs don't make a right.