Neil Gubitz - An unpleasant perspective

[WebSlave]

From CheriS:

I thought it might be because you had not seen them with being at the show or in a moment of anger from that email allowed it and it grew beyond what you thought it would.

Whatever led you to jump to the conclusion that the PM made by Neil angered me? To be honest, I felt it was humorous, although it did put me in an embarrassing spot. One of the original financial supporters and certainly one of the most visible members of this site was advising another member to behave in a manner that would arguably push it towards bringing it down. The fact that the person whom he sent this to was fighting a losing battle trying to prove he is not the bad guy that many people paint him as, is certainly instructive in itself.

No, it was not posted in anger, and I am curious to know how you could read that into what I wrote here. Because I told Neil to leave? Boy, if I was angry, I could certainly have handled that differently.

While writing this posting I am going through this entire thread again and re-reading every post in every page. So far, only the following things have caught my eye:

(1) I should assess warning points to several individuals. For straying off topic.

(2) From this posting by Casey Hulse:

I would be very curious to know whether Neil made any contribution to Gina Gavins fund. I think if he did, it would show his heart is in the right place, but if he did not....?....?...maybe he is just broke. Oh well, we will never know.

This is inappropriate. Neil should not be labeled ANYTHING based on whether or not he has donated towards a fund of any sort.

(3) From CheriS:

Was there not a rule here about posting others emails without consent?

The answer is "no". The only thing I have stated about emails is that ANY email sent to me can be posted here on the BOI at my discretion.

(4) From CheriS:

Is there also not rules about calling other names and negative unnecessary comments..... or do those only apply to a few?

So far (page 12), I have not seen any name calling or negative unnecessary comments that I feel warrant warning points. Certainly this is subjective, and it may appear to be selective depending on which team you are rooting for.

(5) From CheriS:

I hope we can put the pack mentality to rest now ....

Should I rate this as a "negative unnecessary comment"?

(6) From Stardust:

This is harsh.

I disagree. Neil is sleeping in the bed he has made.

Now up to page 14:

(7) From CheriS:

I think it is very sad as there is no way to undo what has been done here, and that's NOT removing anyone as a moderator or personally asking them to stay off a site. Its the avenue that was taken to do it and the cheer section that followed. I for one can guarantee I will never deal, buy or sell with those that joined it and it certainly lowered my personal impression and respect of them.

Who knows, maybe this was put here as a reaction without thinking the negative impact it could have in the long run and there is a way to remove it? I know I am not alone in that thinking, Rich has always left this site open to users to have input on it, rather than discussing in private the fact that some of us think this was wrong, others that voiced that should say it here or at minimum in a message to him. I've also seen that he's not afraid to admit that he's made mistakes and correct them, unlike some other sites.

So far, I stand by my posting that misdirected PM. What would the alternative have been? To ask Neil privately to NOT post on this site again? And then when people began to ask WHY? What should mine or Neil's reply have been? It would either have delayed the posting of the message or meant someone would have had to lie or obscure the truth about the reason. Quite frankly, since many other people have been hoisted by their own petard on this site by their own words, if I had done that, I most certainly would have been accused of applying favoritism to an advertiser here. And I am not about to allow that to happen. There are no sacred cows here, and I believe that point has been very appropriately displayed here.

(8) From msl:

I'm also a little confused as to why no warning points have been issued for extremely inflammatory posts or what this has to do with a business deal? I'm assuming that since there is no specific forum for this sort of thing it has remained on the BOI. And yes people should be able to express their opinions (and warning points issued if warranted)...and give input as to whom they feel should be a moderator, which can in turn be considered by Webslave who has the final decision. I don't feel that it's up to the membership however to decide who should be allowed to post here, if that were the case what would stop the membership from banning anyone with whom they took issue? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the BOI? And since Neil did not directly post the PM to the forum, and as a result no warning points were issued perhaps asking him to leave was a little harsh...at least in my opinion.

The warning system was set up to help me to do several things. I needed a way to easily nudge people into following the rules without the complication of trying to contact them specifically about it, post a link to the offending message, and provide an explanation of what exactly was wrong with their message. I also wanted it to be PUBLIC, so other members would notice the warning points being assessed, and possibly take the time to view what they mean and use them as a learning tool to help them avoid the same problems.

It is NOT intended to be the sole method of deciding what I can and cannot to in relation to someone and what they do on this site. It is an aid for me as well as everyone else in those instances where it is appropriate to use it. My actions were never intended to be limited, nor will they, by what the warning system is being used for.

As far as asking Neil to leave as being harsh, again, I disagree, based on a long history from Neil, private emails I have received from him and other people, and the general determination that his presence here may be doing more harm than good.

(9) From MSL:

But by publically posting that request I don't see much difference between being asked to leave and being banned. I don't see how anyone could comfortably post after being publically asked to leave.

If Neil had been banned, he would not be able to read this site either. But yes, it is hair splitting, I suppose. I really don't know what I would do if Neil does post here again. Ban him? Heck, I don't know. I just felt it more appropriate at the time to just request that he leave. Perhaps it is just a test of his character to see if he can comply.

(10) From Ritchie Luna:

I could be wrong....but I think there are some responses that are already gone from this thread.

I remember replies where people did nothing but call him names.....maybe I missed it...but I can no longer find some of those replies. There are still a couple here and their....but the really out of line ones seem to be gone.

Yes, there have been messages deleted from this thread. I do not advertise the fact when I delete messages. So, yes, I do take action when I feel it warrants it. This is certainly a subjective line to draw in the sand, and the line I use will probably be different from the one someone else may use.

(11) From Stardust:

This is only a question. Just trying to understand.
This is a prime example of what I am asking, Ritchie posted earlier that he thinks some of the name calling has been taken off, it was my impression of what I have read that nothing gets taken off the BOI?
I thought that points would be given?
Do you understand where I am coming from?
I truly am confused about this.

I always have, and always will, delete some messages that I consider to just be downright rude and overly offensive to leave in public view. What is stated in my rules is that I will not delete messages BY REQUEST from or about someone whom simply wants the message deleted. Messages that violate rules about profanity, relevance or just smack my sensibilities as being inappropriate certainly are subject to being deleted. There has NEVER been any statement made by me stating that nothing will be deleted from the BOI. I don't see how such a thing would be even logical to assume with a site like this.

Please read my above statement concerning the point system. It was never intended, and will not be used in any way, to control the way I administer this site.

So, in a nutshell, I stand by my actions in this thread. I never expect everyone to like everything I do, so I don't lose any sleep over it when someone claims they don't like it. Should this thread be closed? Sure! I believe so. But when? Discussion is staying relatively on topic and not to such an extreme that I feel that it warrants it at this time. Is it bashing, or are people having a lively discussion about a volatile topic?

Sorry if some of you disagree with my actions, but I believe this thread is serving the purpose of providing information about someone that should be made public. THAT is what the BOI is here for.


Sorry, but I am not going to proofread the text above. My apologies if the fingers didn't get the correct messages I sent them in a few places.

 

[The BoidSmith]

The thread "opinions on Neil's banning" can be read at:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7046&highlight=banning.

In that thread the Webslave was quite clear as of what kind of behavior he expected from the members when he expressed:

Personally, I am tired of seeing most threads wind up being a bickering contest between the people whom have posted their opinions within the thread. This is real tiresome.

At first it may be interesting to see people pass a few words explaining their position, but once if turns to insults and jabs at each other, that's the time to cut it and leave it alone.

Everyone is welcome to their opinions here. Attacking one another for having opinions differing from your own is NOT welcomed. I like to see a lively discussion, but lately it seems to be taken to extremes, and it's time to put an end to it.

No I am not threatening to ban anyone in this thread. I do not plan to make the ban threat a joke by using it too lightly. But I would like to see a bit more maturity shine through from the people pounding on their keyboards and set an example for the new people coming around here. There are a lot of people on this board whom have been around for a long time. How is someone new in here supposed to think when they see the old timers acting like children?

I will not allow the BOI to sink into having a reputation of nothing but a bashing board. And I will have no bones at all about removing those people whom seem intent on making it that way. Please heed the warning I am giving you all here and now.

He made quite clear what kind of behavior he expected from the people who frequented his site from then on.

Best regards.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Right choices made ...

Rich you were FULLY warranted in your actions made to protect your site from a inside failure.I think the MAIN reason what happened is being overlooked by many .The general public as a whole does not always see the harm caused by a simple action or statement made .Regardless of Neils standing in the herp community such actions can only lead to demise of things. I ask all of the people that have questioned Rich's posting of the email sent by Neil to ask there selves one point already made some pages back.

If you owned a retail store and your store manager was constantly telling vendors how the other vendors and customers of your buisness were "Stupid" , "Ignorant" among other not so nice statements.

If your store manager was telling customers to call your store and constantly complain and be a basic thorn in the side of your buisness for no other reason then there own amusement?

thats just two simple buisness ways to look at what Neil has done and in my opinion warrants actions taken.

Now as far as a " ethics or moral" view to look at this ... yes people will say something about everything and everyone at one time or another.. BUT when you make the choice to put your thoughts in writing and to know that those very same words may ( and will come back to haunt you) be fully prepared to take the brunt of what it brings. Its hard to make a general blanket statement pretain to ONE individual without using a specific name in the statement.

Now if that email had contained a name or names of the specific persons he was insinuating were the derogitive comments made in the email he would just be known as a person who doesnt hold back his thoughts.... of how he feels and could have been passed as just his thoughts of that or those people named.

But by promoting the person to just come and post for the amusement of making things hectic and being vague in his comment ( no persons names ) How else could a person take what was said ? many ways ... so yes there will be a difference of opinions on the choice made but regardless of them this was and is the right choice By Rich.

In closing and nothing to be made personel by this statement
If someone would knowingly allow a person whom would represent them or there company or place of buisness in a public way could allow them to still do so with out being repremanded for there actions ( which keep in mind this was not the first time for Neil)do it more then once would in my eyes not really have respect for anyone whom they have called a valued customer or client .


Buisnesses come and go everday in this world , What keeps you here tomorow is how you treated your customer yesterday...!

 

[JungleHabitats]

lol hmmm my first Point !!

Sorry Rich but cant no one say you didnt tell me so lol
well Im not going to retype it if some saw it that was my point besides i couldnt remember it all now anyways ...

" makes note to self > when changing things in your signature ...DONT FORGET TO RETYPE NAME"

 

[WebSlave]

Alan,

You were in luck. I still had your message in my text buffer when I CTRL-X'd it out of the message. I was surprised it was still there, so I just pasted it back in place. I use cut and paste ALL of the time, so I am amazed I didn't use it somewhere else to overwrite your text.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Thanks WEBSLAVE

i had been hitting the back button and found half of it but didnt post it cause it wasnt in full thanks again !

 

[Dragondad]

This saga

I found this thread to be rather interesting since its inception was within one week of a transaction with Neil. And although I had some grave doubts about Neil ever completing his side of the transaction (all due to his poor customer service) when the snake arrived safe and sound I put the issues away with only a note to myself not to do business with him if I needed him to contact me in any way.

The rest of the now 17 pages is what has motivated me to go from lurker to post. The bottom line of all of this is, this forum is for people to post their opinions. Neil posted his, people didn't like them but guess what not everyone may like what you post either. If Neil thinks he is smarter better and overall that much greater than everyone its his opinion. And based on what I have seen from others on Fauna he isn't the only one to share this vision of grandeur.

For those who want to use to say, "error is human and forgive and move on....." I wonder if those are just words to be spoken when it doesn't involve you directly or if you really apply them to your life.

Time to move forward, Neil is no longer an issue and neither is who says or didn't say what. Take some time feed the dragons, snakes, monitors and lizards. Clean a cage or two were you can really get in touch with the s**t, but let this die.

Words are cheap its your actions that speak volumes.

My opinion
Michael Heald

 

[Chris Mcquade]

Gubitz Removed

Rich
We have been following the B.O.I and have noticed for the past several months that Neil Gubitz has an unusually high profile and his comments of other dealers always seem to be "less than positive" This would seem to be, on a forum such as this, to be somewhat self serving as he tends to promote himself as
"the undisputed expert" of all.
In Dale Carnegie's book he quoted from the biography of Ben Franklin, telling of his over bearing ways of his youth, where he thought he had all the answers and it wasn't until a quaker friend had taken him aside and told him a few stinging truths about himself, that he became the great statesman that we all know today.
"Ben, your opinions have a slap in them, for everyone who differs with you. Your friends find they enjoy themselves more when you are not around. You know so much that no man can tell you anything, indeed no man is going to try, for the effort would lead only to discomfort, so you are not likely to know any more than you know now, which is very little"
Ben Franklin was wise enough to realize that this was true and made an about right face " I made it a rule" said Franklin" To forbear all direct contradiction to the sentiments of others and all positive assertations of my own."

There are some elements on ths board who's motives need to be dealt with skepticism.

I respect this board for the purpose that it was intended, but do not like to see it be used as a sounding board for a mal content who does a disservice to the entire reptile industry.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

I don't believe this statement has any truth at all to it. While Neil does have a bad temper I have seen him post the praises of dozens of breeders and dealers.

 

[Dave Lawson]

Neil Gubitz is the worst of the worst. He steals from his family.

 

[DThomas]

I was not joking when I told you to stop dragging up old threads. Good bye.

 

[John Apple]

Neil Gubitz is the worst of the worst. He steals from his family.

I find that funny coming from you Dave...seeing as how you two are birds of a feather.
Your post is like the pot calling the kettle black