NERD supports Voids and plays with them

[IanV]

This thread could be 4 pages long easily, and contain all the relevant information needed.
The pictures were stolen, then that was apologized for, lets move on.
The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.
Should this have been handled differently? Yes. I not only look up to and respect both Kevin and Kara, they are both great people whom I have enjoyed all my dealings with, but I was a little disturbed that kids were allowed to touch the snakes, void or not. But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERDS.
But I guess I am just an arse kisser, groupie and everything else applied to members of the NERD and BCF forums.

 

[Lucille]

I understand, but I am in no way a thief, I have plenty of my own photos to represent my animals. I felt this should be brought to attention here and I posted them here. I have very strong opinions about Voids and showing them at party is NOT a safe thing to do at all, it will only bring on worse things for hot keepers. I accept anyones opinions but this is just asking for trouble IMO.

A good reply.
Parents, and the public, may assume that 'voids' mean 'voids'. From what I have read, and please correct if I have read wrong, the surgery to make a hot into a void is not 100% guaranteed.

I am against voids for many reasons, the surgery is hell on the poor snake, and as I mentioned above, from what I understand, it is not a sure thing.

Whoever bears responsibility for visitors, children and others at a public function, there is no question in my mind that it is the hot community that would ultimately be made to pay, because of bad press, if a fatality should somehow occur under such circumstances.

 

[sirenofthestorm]

The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.


Should this have been handled differently? Yes... but I was a little disturbed that kids were allowed to touch the snakes, void or not. But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERD's.

Firstly, who was the original poster? Could be that I haven't slept all night but I can't find the forum on their website. Someone please point it out to me if I'm totally blind. And did anyone on the original forum raise any safety concerns?

Secondly, Why aren't you deeply disturbed by (very) young children touching a cobra? Even IF the parents had known that the snakes were venomoid, was the fact that glands can regenerate explained to them? Did they have a full working definition of venomoid on which to base their decision? Chances of that are slim, and because of that fact, if a child had in fact been bit, there would be lawyers and reporters all over the debacle. Its not as if the people there signed a liability waiver, and that is the important thing to keep in mind.

Again, I'd like someone who can speak for NERD or at least someone who can offer up a "they're busy sitting on their thumbs" to post. I don't think its too much to ask that someone answer as to why this took place and whether this was the last time freehandling hots with the general population will happen on their property.

 

[IanV]

Firstly, who was the original poster? Could be that I haven't slept all night but I can't find the forum on their website. Someone please point it out to me if I'm totally blind. And did anyone on the original forum raise any safety concerns?

I don't think he wants his name thrown around, since he has not posted to this. If he so chooses, he can come here and gie out his name but it is not my place to do so.
I did not see the whole thread, so I am not sure who posted what. If it was still around, I would look through it to see (all I remember is there was 5 or 6 threads full of pictures).

Secondly, Why aren't you deeply disturbed by (very) young children touching a cobra?

Because, not only was I not there, I don't know the entire situation and if parents were informed or not. I don't know if the kids were the original posters children (and he has a working knowledge of voids).

Again, I'd like someone who can speak for NERD or at least someone who can offer up a "they're busy sitting on their thumbs" to post.

If you want a quick answer, you may want to call them. They are busy people.

Ian van Natter

 

[Cat_72]

Wow

This thread has really taken some turns since I left. All the childish name calling aside, I would like to clarify some of the statements that I made, since apparently it was taken that I was condoning the things shown in the pictures.

I do not recognise Kevin or Kara by sight, nor have I ever spent any time on their website studying their building. When the pictures were first posted, when we asked for more information, all we got was a "go look it up yourself". For all I knew, the pictures were of some idiots who bought NERD tshirts at a show or online, and I knew nothing about where this was taking place or who was involved. THAT was the issue I was addressing.....I guess not knowing for certain who the people in the pictures were, and also thinking that Kevin and Kara would KNOW better.....my concern was that this was being labeled something it wasn't, and that crazycorn didn't even have the ambition to go check his facts before posting it. The whole beginning of the thread was handled poorly......as I said, I would check my facts before posting something that could be damaging to one's business and reputation.

So....my wanting clarification and/or proof that this was actually a NERD sponsored activity is CONDONING it???

I also stated that I have strong feelings against voids in general, this of course includes the irresponsible handling of them. Obviously now, it has been shown that YES, these are pictures from NERD, and YES, they were handling them very irresponsibly......but I personally didn't know that for sure at the time.

So......me wanting to make sure I KNEW for a FACT who and what these pictures were before "bashing" NERD for what is contained in them makes me CONDONING it??? Not hardly. I simply wanted to know that I wasn't jumping on someone for something as serious as this with no reason. And when someone just tells me they are just wasting time, and to go look at it for myself, well....it doesn't usually say much about them.

If crazycorn could look back at the points he received (and had a membership that allowed him to see who gave him what for points) he could see that I gave him POSITIVE points after he started posting in a more mature manner.

No one at the beginning of this thread said that they weren't disturbed by what they saw.....I was DEEPLY disturbed by it. If wanting to know for CERTAIN what is going on in the photos before believing what a third party says is true about them is condoning it......sheesh. I fail to see that connection.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

I would like to clarify some of the statements that I made, since apparently it was taken that I was condoning the things shown in the pictures.

How many times do I have to do this? It's all there in black & white. I went and reread (again!) the first 4 pages and not one single person even bothered to mention the fact that there were people freehandling hots, not one! Sure a few of you said you don't support voids. Whooptedo, what's that got to do with the fact that people were freehandling hots within inches of bystanders? Everyone was too caught up in this picture stealing bit. But reprinting a free picture isn't stealing.

No one at the beginning of this thread said that they weren't disturbed by what they saw.....I was DEEPLY disturbed by it. If wanting to know for CERTAIN what is going on in the photos before believing what a third party says is true about them is condoning it......sheesh. I fail to see that connection.

And no one said they were disturbed either. If you can't figure out, simply by looking at the pictures, what is going on in them then I feel sorry for you. Maybe next time captions would help.

 

[Cat_72]

Cripes

So......you're saying that if I posted pictures of some unknown people doing the same thing, and told everyone it was YOU.....that everyone should bash YOU without questioning?

I'm sorry...I want to know for a FACT who is in the picture before jumping on them.

Yeah, sure "captions" would help.....IF it wasn't some unknown third party that put them there.

 

[Cat_72]

And BTW......I don't believe I EVER mentioned "picture stealing"....I simply wanted proof of who was in the pictures.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

So......you're saying that if I posted pictures of some unknown people doing the same thing, and told everyone it was YOU.....that everyone should bash YOU without questioning?

That is EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. There is no doubt in my mind at all that if pictures were posted of me or saying it was me doing the exact same thing, people would be all over it like white on rice. I'd be ostracized and have my gluteus maximus handed to me on a platter. But because it's a "big name" in the business people fall all over themselves to CONDONE it.

Definition of Condone: Excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with;

BTW here is your first post on the subject. It really sounds like you were "deeply disturbed" by what you saw. You are against voids, we got it. But the words excuse, overlook, make allowances for, be lenient with slip into my mind. The truth is in the pictures but you still wish to condone what went on because NERD did it.

Perhaps if YOU do not even know the context in which they were originally posted, it wasn't such a good idea to post them here and add your own thoughts to them......which COULD be far from the truth.
I have strong feelings against voids myself, but I don't think I would have made a post like this without knowing for CERTAIN what those pictures were all about.

And BTW......I don't believe I EVER mentioned "picture stealing"....I simply wanted proof of who was in the pictures.

No did not mention picture stealing. You were too worried about reputation points and if David could see who gave him some and who has a paid membership and who doesn't. Then it gets better.

Now WHERE in that does it say they SUPPORT VOIDS???? Uh, they could very well be showing their RESCUED voids, using them as an educational tool?

Right here is where you CONDONE their actions. Page 10 Post #47. There is a way to show rescued voids and a way to use them and educate people. If you think that is the way to handle venomous animals, then I suggest you refrain from buying any. If you think NERD did it the right way, then you're wrong.

Thanks so much for the clarification, Kara.

Now if this youngster would have just come to you and asked, I think this whole nasty thread could have been avoided.....I'm sorry you even had to deal with it.

Here is another example where you CONDONE what they did.

I think we're ALL waiting......and I think you owe Kara an apology as well.

Still condoning. Why does David owe Kara an apology? He posted truth. "NERD supports voids and plays with them." It is all there in the pictures.

Anywho.................... I also believe you need to apologize to Kara.

Here is yet another example of a poster CONDONING the freehandling of hots a few feet from children.

How much more proof do you need? I can cut and paste all day. You people make this too easy.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

And no one said they were disturbed either. If you can't figure out, simply by looking at the pictures, what is going on in them then I feel sorry for you. Maybe next time captions would help.

Karen, I am deeply disturbed that your cat appears to be on LSD. Since it is your cat and he appears on every single post you make, I have no choice but to believe you have drugged all your animals so you can take silly little pictures of them.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Karen, I am deeply disturbed that your cat appears to be on LSD. Since it is your cat and he appears on every single post you make, I have no choice but to believe you have drugged all your animals so you can take silly little pictures of them.

That is funny, Dennis. You were joking, right? No that's not my cat. I got that picture from another website. Okay everyone jump all over me and get off the subject at hand. I used a picture posted on a free website.

Let's get back to the subject of NERD freehandling hots with bystanders a few feet away. Where is everyone's outrage? Why aren't there tons of people jumping in and using all sorts of crude language? Now why is that? I know why (because NERD is a "big name")but I would like others' opinions on this as well.

 

[Cat_72]

Quote:


That is EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. There is no doubt in my mind at all that if pictures were posted of me or saying it was me doing the exact same thing, people would be all over it like white on rice. I'd be ostracized and have my gluteus maximus handed to me on a platter. But because it's a "big name" in the business people fall all over themselves to CONDONE it.

Cripes Karen.....all I was doing was trying to AVOID "handing ANYONE their gluteus maximus" without having proof. I would have said the same things whther it was NERD, you, or Joe Blow whose name was being splattered all over witrh nothing to support it. If you think that my trying to determine if the pics were genuinely of NERD or not before "ostracizing" them is wrong, I think YOU are the one that people should be feeling sorry for.

Copy and paste all you like......if I had been given ALL of the information NOW contained in this thread at the beginning instead of being told to "go find it myself" (which I could not find the pics on NERDs site, so I was questioning the original post even more) SOME of my replies would have been different. But I will ALWAYS believe that before making such serious accusations against someone, you better have proof or I WILL question it. I'm not someone who is just going to jump on someone's ass....ANYONE'S ass, be it a "big time breeder" or a name I've never heard before.....without PROOF.

What it all boils down to is this.........I never meant ANY of my posts to condone ANYTHING going on in those pictures, as I'm sure many others didn't either. But isn't it better to know for a FACT to to blame than just condemning someone who could have had nothing to do with it? You say "The truth is in the pictures".....but if I can't recognise Kevin or Kara by looking at them, how am I to know it is them?

 

[Karen Hulvey]

be it a "big time breeder" or a name I've never heard before.....without PROOF.

What it all boils down to is this.........I never meant ANY of my posts to condone ANYTHING going on in those pictures, as I'm sure many others didn't either. But isn't it better to know for a FACT to to blame than just condemning someone who could have had nothing to do with it? You say "The truth is in the pictures".....but if I can't recognise Kevin or Kara by looking at them, how am I to know it is them?

Then why, after Kara said it was them and you know 100% who it is, do you still condone what they did? Here's what you wrote to refresh your memory.

Thanks so much for the clarification, Kara.

Now if this youngster would have just come to you and asked, I think this whole nasty thread could have been avoided.....I'm sorry you even had to deal with it.

and

I think we're ALL waiting......and I think you owe Kara an apology as well.

and then Rebel Dragons condoned it as well here

Anywho.................... I also believe you need to apologize to Kara.

I guess you forgot that NERD freehanded hots a few feet from bystanders. You only start harping on how you are deeply disturbed by it because others spoke out about you condoning it. Again condoning means to excuse which is what your post to Kara did: ("THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE CLARIFICATION, KARA)

 

[crazycorn]

Well I must say, this is not surprising that NERD will not post. What are you afraid of Kara? The truth? Oh and BTW I did get my hands on the list of who gave me feed back and I must say, some people confuse me.....

 

[Cat_72]

I'm not going to argue about my intentions here any more.....no matter what I say, it seems some people are going to see what they WANT to see, read into it what they want to read into it. Perhaps I too could have worded some things differently, not to mention that posts were being posted at the same time people were typing theirs, so things were missed and actually posted rather "out of order", if you will....but it is all a moot point.

Regardless.......I will re-state once again, now that I know for a fact what actually was going on in those photos, I would really like to hear what Kevin and Kara have to say about it. What they were doing WAS reckless and irresponsible, and I think they have some 'splaining to do.

 

[crazycorn]

Also on a side note... I have sent and Email and PM to NERD asking them to answer questions here, yet I still doubt they will. Right now it seems they are using ostrich tactics.

 

[JuliusSqueezer]

Last and only reminder to keep it on topic and civil, folks. I've already issued a couple warnings to participants in this thread, and don't really look forward to having to issue out more (to include possible suspensions) in the morning.

Out of curriosity Ken, what are your thoughts on this particular NERD event? I know you and Kara are extremely close friends. I'm not asking with a "told ya so" attitude. I am asking because I am truely concerned that this kinda thing is going on and maybe you as someone whe would actually listen to could say "Hey Kara and Kevin, wtf were you thinking?" I am reasonably sure that this thread will cause them to be more careful of what is photographed and posted on their own site but I don't think it alone will convince them that they are not acting as very good representatives for our hobby.

 

[CaptainSlackass]

Secondly, Why aren't you deeply disturbed by (very) young children touching a cobra?


Because, not only was I not there, I don't know the entire situation and if parents were informed or not. I don't know if the kids were the original posters children (and he has a working knowledge of voids).

Ian - stop apologizing for NERD...

For one thing, David didn't "steal" anything. It was a free public use forum. The worst thing that he's guilty of is not citing his source. There are pictures that people use as avatars and such ALL over the net. It may be slightly rude, but it's hardly illegal.

The fact that this was done by people you consider friends is obviously clouding the issue with you. Take a step back, forget it's Kevin, and LOOK at what's being presented. It doesn't matter whether or not the parents knew they were voids. Do the parents have a full understanding about voids? Do they understand how the procedure works? Or that it's only rarely done by an actual liscenced veterinarian?
But that would all be completely beside the point because voids simply shouldn't be handled like that at all. Furhtermore they certainly shouldn't be showboated as completely safe versions of the worlds most deadly reptiles, especially to children.


Sometimes people make poor choices. Everyone makes mistakes ... even the biggest names in the industry are still just normal people like everyone else. They screwed up, I hope this doesn't happen again, and I'd like to see more clarification about this, from them.

If you want a quick answer, you may want to call them. They are busy people.

You're making excuses for them. If they're really "too busy" to respond to this public relations nightmare, I'd have to wonder why not.

 

[Gary O]

I have one more question for NERD.

What was there to gain by allowing hands on with hots?

I have tried to look at this in every why I could but the reason I always end up with it this

We are NERD and we do what we want, and we can handle hots see how cool we are.

 

[bcfos]

This thread could be 4 pages long easily, and contain all the relevant information needed.

Then why add to it as you are if that is the case?

The pictures were stolen, then that was apologized for, lets move on.

Stolen no public forum and fair use laws for photographs cover the idea of criticism and review. Given the public posting on a free website prior to this, there's no legal basis for reprecussions for his use of them. And it was stated they were from NERDS forum so everyone was keen to this fact.

The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.

Are you a moderator or an administrator of that forum? If not please explain how you know they were not removed by a moderator or administrator seeing that if you are neither you can't view the logs for the site. Or do you have a crystal ball you can tell such things with?

Should this have been handled differently? Yes. I not only look up to and respect both Kevin and Kara, they are both great people whom I have enjoyed all my dealings with, but I was a little disturbed that kids were allowed to touch the snakes, void or not.

At least you were "A Little Disturbed". Quite frankly you should have been more than a LITTLE disturbed.

But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERDS.

And would you be willing to bet these parents don't know the fact that a venomoid can in some cases regenerate and become venomous again. I bet not. They were quite possible not as informed as you think they were.

But I guess I am just an arse kisser, groupie and everything else applied to members of the NERD and BCF forums.

You said it I didn't. And we will leave it at that.