NERD supports Voids and plays with them

[Gary O]

A large constritor being a 5 foot ball or carpet killing someone, come on!

A hot that is kown as a void is dangerous if it bites you. You think you are safe and do nothing. But if it did inject venom you are in danger and will not know it right away with some of the hots.

I say a buddy system works well when dealing with large snakes. A bite and constrict from a constrictor does hurt and can kill but having others around will save your life. A void or hot all it takes is that bite and you trully do not know what will happen next. If it is a void that is hot again(yes this has happened) Can you imagine what could be done to the owner.

Hots need to be viewed by people and not touched and only trained personal need to handle such snakes.

This is where voids give that sense of security that you never know if it is trully there.

Am I going to sit here and bash NERD. NO, but they made a very bad choice IMO and need to just look it over and maybe do something else to "educate" people. Also all it takes is for one of them people to see that and say I know where to buy those snakes. Get it shipped to them only to find out they got a hot when it is to late.

Remember the king cobra that a person ordered. They ordered a HOT snake and got a void. Did the person that ordered the void get a hot?

Talk about dangerous.

 

[Gary O]

Am I really the only one who recognizes Kevin from other pics as among the freehandlers?

I was not going to bring that up but a friend and I was talking about that on the phone awhile ago lol

 

[JuliusSqueezer]

NERD promotes Voids. I'll say it and NO ONE will ever convince me otherwise. Kara changes her stories about anything controversial as needed to protect their business. I am a wittness to her past posts on RTB about the vet they have had perform the operations. As soon as the flack started flying, she deleted all those posts and denied them...Call it hearsay all you want. I was there. Now am I saying that Kevin and Kara are putting up billboards around the country that says "VOIDS ARE COOL"? No but showboating them around the public at shows PROMOTES THEM and they might as well put up billboards as this is every bit as bad! I'd love to take a poll from the kids at that show and ask how many would love to have a venomoid for a pet now. Back a few years ago when Kara was fumbling around with her ever changing stories about why they have voids and what they do with them. She assured us that in presentations, these animals were always displayed as venomous snakes and no showboating ever occured. People leave those shows none the wiser that the animals were butcher-victims and they were only used to teach respect...OK, that was obviously a lie. It's always nice to have people in any hobby/industry to look up to and anyone who has made a name is going to have a flock of sheep that can see no wrong in anything they do. So for a second, forget who this is about and focus on what took place. Some freaking morons took a bunch of voids out amongst a bunch of kids and sideshow circus gawkers and showboated with them and let small children get up close and personal and even handle them. Had this been anyone else...The Hyena pack would have gnashed their teeth in the other direction. NO ONE owes NERD, Kara or Kevin any appology. If anyone owes an appology it's whoever wants to be the scapegoat du jour for NERD since Kara and Kevin can do no wrong ever...and they owe it to the entire hobby/industry.

 

[sirenofthestorm]

Kara/Kevin, please answer my question of clarity. Is everyone pictured holding, touching, and within striking distance of the venomoids on their way to being thoroughly apprenticed in hot handling?

 

[Jim O]

A large constritor being a 5 foot ball or carpet killing someone, come on!

You aren't helping your case here Gary by belittling others' posts. I said that a five foot constrictor can kill someone if it wraps quickly around the neck. In fact, a smaller one can. It only takes two coils. Do the arithmetic. Two coils on an 18 inch neck is...ummm 36 inches (that's all of three feet). I didn't say it was likely, what I said was that it could happen. I also said that if you do get neck wrapped by a constrictor you will be down and dead before you can get to the phone to call 911. With a venomous bite if you get medical attention you are likely to survive.

Now you want to doubt my story that's fine. I could care less whether you believe it or not. My point was that many people are quite cavalier about how they handle reptiles, hot or not, and that the problem is not limited to one group.

As for recognizing the people in the picture, please forgive the ignorant among us who did not. I don't make it a practice of knowing what NERD's staff and ownership look like, and to ASSume that anyone does is well...you can fill in the blank.

 

[Gary O]

Did I belittle you? No if you feel that way I am sorry. but if you would have read my post you would have also seen I posted that the buddy system for large constrictors is something you should do.................

No a hot snake biute yes but a hot you think is a void will kill you and you never know it. Or you know when it is too late...............see the point.

Letting kids play with hots is not smart. There is no dodging this. There is no other thing we can twist this too.

Can a large constrictor kill you. Yep I posted that, but with 2 or three people there a 5 foot snake is not going to kill you. maybe fluffy or baby could with the buddy system as they are that large we are talking 300 llb snakes. But you could have a group of 50 and have a void bite you. You think it is a void. Blow it off. Awhile later you are feeling lite headed and then you seak medical attention. You just wasted a lot of time thinking it was only a void bite.

 

[Gary O]

You aren't helping your case here Gary by belittling others' posts.

It is funny you say this also when so many did just that belittled the post that the author of this thread posted. Then they ask questions later. It happens all the time.

But I stiull say in no way did I belittle you.

 

[IL_Duca]

Jim and a few others of you, I have read many BOI's and other posts on this site that you have participated in. In so much I had thought higher of you. 2 of you even go as far as to keep bashing him even after he remitted and gave an apology. He was belittled because of his age, but were any apologies offered for this? I havent seen any. He was quick enough and man enough at age 16 to remit an offer an apology but you continue on with your ways if it works for you.

 

[Gary O]

Jim and a few others of you, I have read many BOI's and other posts on this site that you have participated in. In so much I had thought higher of you. 2 of you even go as far as to keep bashing him even after he remitted and gave an apology. He was belittled because of his age, but were any apologies offered for this? I havent seen any. He was quick enough and man enough at age 16 to remit an offer an apology but you continue on with your ways if it works for you.

As you seen man Jim O got upset at me for questioning his 5 foot will kill you thing. But he did not read the whole post. But in this very thread he belittled the origanal poster.

It is the way some are man. I wish it were different.

But I agree Dave said he was sorry and more then once. But still getting slammed about his age. he is a memebr of my site TRR and I will say that he is a great member and very polite.

 

[bcfos]

NERD promotes Voids. I'll say it and NO ONE will ever convince me otherwise. Kara changes her stories about anything controversial as needed to protect their business. I am a wittness to her past posts on RTB about the vet they have had perform the operations. As soon as the flack started flying, she deleted all those posts and denied them...Call it hearsay all you want. I was there. Now am I saying that Kevin and Kara are putting up billboards around the country that says "VOIDS ARE COOL"? No but showboating them around the public at shows PROMOTES THEM and they might as well put up billboards as this is every bit as bad! I'd love to take a poll from the kids at that show and ask how many would love to have a venomoid for a pet now. Back a few years ago when Kara was fumbling around with her ever changing stories about why they have voids and what they do with them. She assured us that in presentations, these animals were always displayed as venomous snakes and no showboating ever occured. People leave those shows none the wiser that the animals were butcher-victims and they were only used to teach respect...OK, that was obviously a lie. It's always nice to have people in any hobby/industry to look up to and anyone who has made a name is going to have a flock of sheep that can see no wrong in anything they do. So for a second, forget who this is about and focus on what took place. Some freaking morons took a bunch of voids out amongst a bunch of kids and sideshow circus gawkers and showboated with them and let small children get up close and personal and even handle them. Had this been anyone else...The Hyena pack would have gnashed their teeth in the other direction. NO ONE owes NERD, Kara or Kevin any appology. If anyone owes an appology it's whoever wants to be the scapegoat du jour for NERD since Kara and Kevin can do no wrong ever...and they owe it to the entire hobby/industry.

I am with Brett on this one. Seems they change their tune to go with popular current beliefs and opinions. Which these picture do in fact prove wrong. As for context it is kind of hard to prove what they said seeing that someone deleted ther threads in question on their site. Wonder why? Could it be because it was nothing more than stuff like Kevin holding an Egyptian cobra or kids petting a cobra? Could be, looks like they did a little damage control to try and save face.

Now go and give me them negative points as I don't give a damn about this forum or the groupies on it. I said what needed to be said and I am done with it. Go ahead and gang up on me on this post (typical moronic response from fauna) also just don't expect a reply back because like I said I am done with it. I am not saying I am better than anyone here, but I am not blinded to the facts because someone is a so called big time ethical dealer. Inbreeding isn't ethical in case you didn't know.

 

[crazycorn]

I still feel I was jumped on a bit too harshly, yes I could have presented my post better but some of you like to protect 'big names' and many people can see this its not just me. Yes I may be young but I can hold my own and it does not automaticly deem me a lesser on the forums than any of you. I am glad to see people are finally coming out of the wood works on this. Many of you act less mature than me at times. But I am done now...

 

[Jim O]

As you seen man Jim O got upset at me for questioning his 5 foot will kill you thing. But he did not read the whole post. But in this very thread he belittled the origanal poster.

It is the way some are man. I wish it were different.

But I agree Dave said he was sorry and more then once. But still getting slammed about his age. he is a memebr of my site TRR and I will say that he is a great member and very polite.

Actually, this was the sequence Gary

Okay, I WAS WRONG on NERD supporting voids and saying they do so, I truely sorry to KAra and Kevin. Yes I should have contacted them first, as we all know being up late at night does help us make good choices. I am also sorry for aounding cocky as someone has mentioned

Now that my young friend, is showing some maturity

Yes it is. I am almost tempted to give him postive rep points for it.

I will admit to making mistakes, trust me we all make them and I have made plenty.

Yes we all have. Actually there is a quote from someone here and I cannot remember who said it but it has stuck with me since I read it the first time. It goes something like "an error is not a mistake unless you don't learn from it". Quite apt IMO

I think I pretty well let him off the hook. And actually, I made the fourth post in this thread (David made the first two so it was only the second response), asking him for context for the photos.

David,

Do you want to give us some context on these photos?

And I drew no conclusions until he admitted he had no context. And that, my dear friend, was the issue with the post. So to say that he was criticized for the content before questions were asked is perhaps an overstatement, unless you consider stealing copyrighted material, something to which he admitted, OK. I do not. My guess is that you would not like your material used without permission.

As for the "buddy system" yes it works if it is used. Proper handing of hots works well if it is used also. I know many people who live alone and who keep large constrictors and do not use it. My original point was that the way these animals were handled is NOT the only problem. Someone carrying a large burm around their neck at ANY time, whether at a show or at home is plain stupid IMNSHO. That was my point.

 

[JuliusSqueezer]

Jim Jim Jim. If you cannot simply reach up and unwrap a 5 foot carpet python from your own neck when it is squeezing too hard...YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING REPTILES The whole carpet python saga seemed a bit dramatized. I agree though about large burms although burms tend to hang rather loosely compared to other boids unless a feeding response is a factor...I actually had to walk next door to get a neighbor to help me get an 8 foot tiger ratsnake off my neck once. He had tied his tail in multiple knots and I was just stuck! lol. ...blasted extra long prehensile tail... I never considered myself in a life threatening situation though and I'll pit an 8 foot tiger rat squeeze against a 5 foot carpet any day.

 

[JuliusSqueezer]

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable? A picture says a 1000 words. That may be cliche' but it fits here. Just the mere fact that they held such an event and then posted photos on their website...no "context" can downplay the horror of such a scene.

 

[crazycorn]

Jim does it have to be spelled out for you?

Lol...

You still do not get it. There is a very important lesson to be learned here. When you make accusations about people it is YOUR responsibility to prove your own accusations to be true. Not ours.

Anyway, after seeing Kara's post I hope this lesson sank in a little bit. This thread should never have been started.


Paul Sage,

Sorry dude but at 16 he is more than old enough to know better. My 10 year old knows better. It seems to me that he thought he had a sure fire hot topic and could not wait to see the fireworks start. Only it blew up in his face.

Lesson learned I hope.

Lets not forget this one......

You're right Sammy. I see that now. At first when I saw "crazycorn" I was thinking of "corncrazy" who is someone I had a very pleasant transaction with. I thought that he was maybe their kid or something, so I was a little biased when I posted about granting him some leniency.

He has certainly dug himself a hole here, and when you light fireworks off inside a pit, they're bound to "blow up in his face". Some people just want to make waves, and then sit back and hope the tsunami that results doesn't flood their way. Lol... so now he's lighting fireworks off inside a flooded hole that he dug himself! Don't you just love expressions?

Lets not forget this one......

 

[crazycorn]

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable? A picture says a 1000 words. That may be cliche' but it fits here. Just the mere fact that they held such an event and then posted photos on their website...no "context" can downplay the horror of such a scene.

They are just mobbing me to protect NERD, you do not need the context for those photos I was surprised when they asked for it.

 

[crazycorn]

BTW... Thanks for all the good comments and back up from everyone through posts, PM's, and Emails. It is a bit rough on young person that is passionate about reptiles to go through stuff such as bashing and belittling from people you are supposed to be able to look up to.

 

[Jim O]

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable?

None at all. I have said from the get go that the pictures were disturbing. My problem was that the thread was titled "NERD supports Voids and plays with them" when all that I, and I repeat I, saw was people in a photo do just that. As I said, and if you look at this thread closely you will see that I said it, those t-shirts are available for sale to the general public. Since I, and I repeat I, do not know the staff at NERD, the people wearing those shirts could have been anyone. If that context had been provided this thread would likely have gone a very different way. Had David said "these photos were taken at a NERD event at NERD and the two people wearing the NERD t-shirts are frick and frack who work there and/or own the place that would have been context enough. But as they were presented, all we had were some disturbing photos and no context.

When David was asked for context, his answer was for people to look it up themselves.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Telling me what 'I should have done' isn't going to change anything..... Oh well... I am still waiting to hear from them.. Prove it to me I am wrong and I will ADMIT I am wrong.

Here he states he will admit he was wrong if he needed too.

Thanks for clearing it up, I was wrong, you may not presently support voids, but that IMO was down right wrong and could have been very serious as many others think also.

Yes, you were wrong. You owned up to it and stated you opinion that you feel that what they were doing was wrong. Nothing wrong with that.

Okay, I WAS WRONG on NERD supporting voids and saying they do so, I truely sorry to KAra and Kevin. Yes I should have contacted them first, as we all know being up late at night does help us make good choices. I am also sorry for aounding cocky as someone has mentioned.

He is David again saying he was worng and apologizing for it.

There is a very important lesson to be learned here. When you make accusations about people it is YOUR responsibility to prove your own accusations to be true. Not ours.

Another example as to why he was confronted at the beginning of the thread.

So wait, there's no concern at all over kids free handling voids in the hot forum? At all? Wow.

(And by the way, just in advance, thanks to anyone who gives me negative reputation points for raising a SAFETY concern about a well known breeder.) *rolls eyes*

Here is where the posts start coming in about safety issues concerning the snakes.

I think there is a great deal of concern. The issue thus far had to deal with the way the thread was presented without any facts.

NERD has posted that it could have been done in a better manner and I agree with that whole-heartily. I am personally opposed to Voids and I agree with much of Gary’s post that they should be handled in the same way as hots.

And LOL, Your not accusing someone of something and telling people to go find the proof on their own. So, I would not worry about the rep. point thing.

A post saying that the safety issue was not the first topic discussed. And yet another person voiceing concern about the safety issue at the same time.

Still have yet to see anyone saying they support what was going on in the pictures. Let's keep rolling on in the thread shall we?

Honestly, I think the pics speak for themselves. The question that pops into my head just by looking at the pics is "Wow, those are either hots or voids. And is either one really appropriate in that situation?"

Now yes, this thread should have a different TITLE, but a poor choice of words should not have overshadowed the content of the thread. How a bunch of self respecting adults let that little nugget slip by them for 8 pages is beyond me. I'm sorry guys, this is not debate school, this is a board for a hobby that gets more bad press than good press, and arguing about the semantics of how an argument was made is kinda bypassing the core issue IMO.

This in my opinion was a great post. However some people don't follow the same procedures as others when they read a thread for the first time. Everyone is going to see a diffrent core topic in some posts. Thats just the way it is.

I still feel I was jumped on a bit too harshly, yes I could have presented my post better but some of you like to protect 'big names' and many people can see this its not just me. Yes I may be young but I can hold my own and it does not automaticly deem me a lesser on the forums than any of you. I am glad to see people are finally coming out of the wood works on this. Many of you act less mature than me at times. But I am done now...

Perhaps you were, perhaps you weren't. I don't remeber seeing anyone post you were lesser than anyone else. You opinions hold just as much weight as anyone elses. Sometimes people will agree with your actions and sometimes they won't. Although now that you seem to have a little back up your attitude certainly has changed from the one that was addmitting his mistakes at the start of the thread.

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable? A picture says a 1000 words. That may be cliche' but it fits here. Just the mere fact that they held such an event and then posted photos on their website...no "context" can downplay the horror of such a scene.

WHERE DID ANYONE SAY IT WAS ACCEPTABLE????

They are just mobbing me to protect NERD, you do not need the context for those photos I was surprised when they asked for it.

Theres the change we were seeing. Want to retract your apolgies now?

BTW... Thanks for all the good comments and back up from everyone through posts, PM's, and Emails. It is a bit rough on young person that is passionate about reptiles to go through stuff such as bashing and belittling from people you are supposed to be able to look up to.

Trust me David, you were not bashed. You got nothing more than a flesh wound on this topic. Your passion is enough to drive you onto bigger and better things. However your passion is just might have been what you were trying to do when YOU let's say started "bashing" NERD over the pictures taken at one of their events. Also I never once read anywhere about having to look up to people on this site. Sounds like a personal issue to me.

And for the record I am not defending NERD. If I ran over a member of NERD with my car I wouldn't have a clue who they were. I am opposed to voids being around children just as I am pythons and constrictors. All are deadly in their own way. Some more than others but still deadly.

What I am opposed to is people starting threads by using an opinion as fact. That is where all the "open ended" opinions start trouble because there is no fact behind anything said.

 

[Jim O]

Jim Jim Jim. If you cannot simply reach up and unwrap a 5 foot carpet python from your own neck when it is squeezing too hard...YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING REPTILES The whole carpet python saga seemed a bit dramatized.

Do you know how much unilateral carotid sinus pressure is required to cause bradycardia and syncope? Evidently not as you don't likely know enough anatomy, physiology, or vocabulary. I, on the other hand, have a medical degree and practiced clinical medicine for 17 years so let me help you. The carotid sinus is a collection of nerve endings in the carotid artery. Pressure on the carotid sinus typically results in a slowed heart rate (bradycardia). In some cases, it is sufficient to cause syncope (fainting or loss of consciousness) rather quickly. In fact, in some people with carotid sinus hypersensitivity, a quick turn of the head can result in loss of consciousness. Now imagine a 5 foot constrictor getting a good press on someone like that. It can happen. You want to argue the medical likelihood? Go ahead and do it. But you'd be wrong to say it cannot happen. Because it can, even in a relatively healthy person. That is why I cringe when I see or hear of people allowing constrictors on or near their necks. In the case of the individual in question, I suspect this may have been what happened as he was going down pretty quickly, long before his airway could possibly have been compromised