New BP breeder would like to ask Experienced BP breeder some questions

[sbender99]

I wonder if an experienced breeder would let me talk to them and pick their brain every now and again for tips. I'm just getting started and, of course, very excited to get going. I have approx twenty something BP of various morphs. I have 13 eggs in the incubator and another about to pop soon. Like I said just getting started.
If you are an experienced, quality, reputable breeder and willing to share some of your hard-earned knowledge, I would very much appreciate a PM. I'll call or text (whatever you prefer) you on your schedule, not mine. I'll not be a pest but hopefully a future ally to you in the future. I just realize that there is a cycle to things like buying and selling, etc. and these kinds of tips I'd really rather not find out the hard way.

Thx for your help in advance!

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

If you have any questions or need advice, this is a great place to post it. There's a lot of very knowledgeable people in this community who are more than happy to help out. I know we've gotten a lot of answers to questions not answered by doing our own research.

 

[sbender99]

Well, for example, it seems like now-or short while ago, is the time to sell males as their purpose has been done. Breeders are now selling them to, I'm guessing, keep from having to feed those big mouths for another year waiting. This all seems cyclical - the buying and selling of males and females. I was wondering if you could let me in on the cycle of when to buy and when to sell. There is a method to this madness I'm sure and although someone might be friendly enough to let me in on it personally, they may not want to broadcast it. Anyway, any help you can provide would be great. TY!

 

[Iloverhacs]

Breeders sell males this time of the year because they all ready did their purpose, or one of their hold backs made it this year and replaced the male they are selling. There is no season of when and what to sell. Breeding size females are always wanted late fall to early spring, but most breeders aren't going to raise a female to breeding size just to let someone else buy her and breed her. And then there's tax time, and christmas, and birthday money, work bonus. Every buyer is different, depending on their situation. As long as you have quality animals they will sell for you, just no guarantee how fast. You might hold onto something for a few years before it sells, just prepare your self as a breeder that not every baby is guaranteed to sell. And make sure you have the room and resources to care for the unsold.

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

I'm pretty new to all of this, but that seems to be how it works. Breeders will replace their males with upgraded males mostly. Replacing a pastel male w/a super pastel for example. Same goes for females, but females take much longer to mature, so it's a lot more rare to see breeder females for sale. Hatchlings of both sexes that don't fit into any breeding plans are usually sold. That's just my observation, but I'm sure there's a lot of different variables that come into play. Everyone has their own reasons for selling

 

[sbender99]

Breeders sell males this time of the year because they all ready did their purpose, or one of their hold backs made it this year and replaced the male they are selling. There is no season of when and what to sell. Breeding size females are always wanted late fall to early spring, but most breeders aren't going to raise a female to breeding size just to let someone else buy her and breed her. And then there's tax time, and christmas, and birthday money, work bonus. Every buyer is different, depending on their situation. As long as you have quality animals they will sell for you, just no guarantee how fast. You might hold onto something for a few years before it sells, just prepare your self as a breeder that not every baby is guaranteed to sell. And make sure you have the room and resources to care for the unsold.

Thanks for responding!

As a new breeder, what percentage of babies should I expect wont sell? or should I go a different path as a new breeder and sell them to a big breeder at wholesale until I get more experience? Like I said this is my first year and I felt I would be lucky to have anything to incubate so I'm ecstatic to have 13 good eggs (nice spider x normal) right now. All the rest of my morph BPs are still growing for this year coming. I know if the male spider is het, I'll have some normals.

Is there anytime during the year where females would likely be at their cheapest?

Why would someone sell their females at this time of year that are gravid?

If you have time I would love to go through my inventory with you and get your thoughts on a good direction to go with them that will yield the best financial results.

Thx again both of you for responding!

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

I don't think there's any way to pre-determine how many won't sell. It's simply supply & demand. Females are more than likely the cheapest during the spring/summer when alot of breeders are hatching out gobs of clutches. The winter seems to slow down and you see alot less available (again, supply & demand.) As far as selling gravid females, it could be a handful of reasons: no incubator and/or room in incubator, no room for the hatchlings, etc.

 

[Iloverhacs]

its all supply and demand, trusted breeders vs. new names, prices, marketing. There's never a guarantee what you will sell and what you can't. Just don't market crash, you'll ruin everyone and your self. You can wholesale to someone else if you like. It saves you the time and resources of caring for them. But everyone has different opinions. Just have fun with what your doing.

 

[Matt2979]

I'll give one suggestion that seems to hold true, no matter how many seasons you have (or have not) done this...breed to produce what YOU like. That way if you don't sell any, you won't be stuck with something you don't like!

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

And that's where the experience comes in on this topic. GREAT tip Matt Keep in mind all of my input is strictly based on my studying and observations.

 

[sbender99]

I'll give one suggestion that seems to hold true, no matter how many season you have (or have not) done this...breed to produce what YOU like. That way if you don't sell any, you won't be stuck with something you don't like!

In that direction, I made a spreadsheet of every proven recessive, dominant, and co-dom morph I could find. If a co-dom wasn't proven with a super, I didn't add it. Then I went through every morph guide I could find and listed the morph combinations I would like to own (because I don't have the pulse of things so I don't know whats hot or not - so I looked at the combos that caught my eye and would make me want to buy it). Then I marked the ingredients necessary to make it the combo and looked at the results of the spreadsheet. I still had like 70 projects Id like to do but it helped me figure out where to center my efforts and when I have money to spend what direction to go in. This would also guide my breeding efforts over the next couple years to build the mating combos I need to make the end results.

That's all I know to do as a beginner. And yes its good in that, its headed in the direction of what I like. However, the downside being is its directed also toward whats been done before. So good-bad.

Any suggestions to this approach?

 

[Matt2979]

Do you have any BP's now? It sounds like you're approaching this as a business. I can tell you that (at least in my experience) it's a lot more fun to do this as a hobby, than it is profitable as a business. That's not saying that no one makes money doing it, but keep in mind the cost of food, racks, tubs, supplies in general, the occasional vet bill (more vet visits if you don't have great husbandry), paying higher dollar amounts for THE best genetics, etc, etc, etc. My electric bill, even on the budget plan (where I pay the same every month throughout the year) is well over $300 a month, and I live in a modest 2-level house (almost double what I was paying before heating lots of racks!!).

I'm not trying to talk you out of raising, or even breeding, BP's. There's just a lot to learn before starting a business. Make sure that you like it first because if you don't, you're not going to give LOTS of animals the attention that they need. I'm not talking about playing with them, but even on a hobby level, I have to clean severeal tubs/cages EVERYday, as well as 1 day of cleaning most all the tubs and enclosures (I have BP's and boas). Feeding is done about 3 days per week to keep from going crazy with some finicky eaters...and that's all before you start trying to sell them. Don't even get me started on low-ballers!!! lol

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

Aww cmon Matt, you won't take $50 for a desert pin? More great tips to consider Scott. I agree. We entered this strictly as a hobby. If we make a lil extra $ a few years down the road, great! If not, we lovvvve our animals regardless. Living art!

 

[Matt2979]

LOL, Bo...I have no desert pins, but that's pretty close to the example of LOW-balling I've gotten from some people!!

And please excuse me if I sound a little grumpy. I've just started the 4th week of my diet, and I'm not feeling too giddy!

But seriously, I'm not trying to be the male version of "Debbie Downer" here. I'm just pointing out some things that I would have never thought of in the beginning. Granted, I started out with a single BP, raised it for awhile, and then decided to see what kind of offspring I could make. From there the hobby turned into a habit and now, after several seasons, I have TOO many (I keep telling myself that, but the numbers don't seem to be getting any lower either!! ).

If you like bumblebees, get yourself a high-quality pastel, and a high-quality spider with no (or at least VERY little wobble) and make some. Please pay attention to "HIGH-QUALITY", as browned out pastels and bees, as well as wobbly, spinning spiders are not sought after.

If that breeding's successful, and you really enjoy it, get another female that will go good with your male and make some more. You'll figure out along the way what you really want. If you're like me, you'll like LOTS of stuff and trade what you produce for some new blood, thus keeping yourself from doing lots of inbreeding.

 

[sbender99]

I've have about 30 BP of various ages and morphs. I have a herp room dedicated to them. 13 eggs in the incubator and a hatch rack ready for the babies. They really are treated like our pets. I currently have 2 males I don't need for breeding and should probably sell. I don't dally into other snake areas as these BP are expensive enough to get what I need for my projects.

I've made several mistakes throughout purchasing them. I've been taken more times than I've got a good deal. But I'll admit I've been the low-baller at times. I don't mean to insult any breeder (actually I hope its a compliment to them I'm considering a snake they are selling as a breeder), but I'm just trying to get a beautiful breeder without being taken to the cleaners. KS and fauna has the rep of asking price being twice as much as they will actually take for the snake. I learned this from people in the know that run reptile shows and reputable people at local reptile societies. Been in the business for many years. I believe their exact tips were "stay away from fauna and KS". One possible tip - I do know as I look through ads one thing Ive seen that stops at least a good portion of low ball offers are the words 'FIRM'.

I'd love it if someone would establish a baseline price for this and that and publish it and then breeders adjust based on quality of the animal. But less than a year ago Enchis were for sale for $75 and now $350. You just got to wonder when you are being taken and and just how badly. Just from a buyers perspective, I feel like I'm buying a used car. but at least buying a used car I have Kellys blue book. Here, I don't wonder if I'm being taken, its just how bad! So just a perspective from a buyer. I know you must see a whole nuther side of it. I understand this and I'm sure I'll learn.

R, Scott

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

That would be out of date as soon as it was printed. Prices fluctuate greatly season to season. Supply & demand, new, previously unknown combos, etc. There is not set price for anything and will never be. As far as "stay away from fauna & KS" comment. That falls on the buyer. If someone does their homework, they should know what the average price for that particular animal should be around.

 

[Matt2979]

And it's not just that the "book" would be outdated, almost as soon as it was printed (though that IS true) but also the fact that 2 pastels (just as one of a million examples) side by side can be more than $100 different in price. I look for certain traits when picking out any morph. I'll gladly pay "full-market value" for the better one, while I won't touch the cheap one...no matter HOW cheap.

And then there's customer service. I tend to stay away from those that don't have a great reputation. When someone buys from me, I'm around well after the sale. I expect my seller to be there for me...but many won't be.

As far as a fair price, if you feel you got the amount of genetics and service for the amount of cash that you forked over, you got a good deal. If you're not sure, just walk away.

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

I would suggest that you study study study. I research husbandry, diet, illnesses, breeding, incubating, hatching, markets, etc etc etc daily. I will never be satisfied with my current level of knowledge. Anything I can't find out on my own, I ask and am not satisfied unless the same answer comes from several reputable keepers and/or breeders.

 

[sbender99]

That would be out of date as soon as it was printed. Prices fluctuate greatly season to season. Supply & demand, new, previously unknown combos, etc. There is not set price for anything and will never be.

I understand and point taken.

As far as "stay away from fauna & KS" comment. That falls on the buyer. If someone does their homework, they should know what the average price for that particular animal should be around.

Where exactly do you do your homework at? Is there really anything besides KS and fauna? That and my local herp society and show organizers. What I'm saying is (#1) how do you compare and overblown price to other overblown prices? and (#2) if you really want no one to sink the market, then why not advertise some real prices you'll stick by. I can send a PM or email to anyone and ask whats the best price I can get to yadda yadda zip and bamn the price just dropped 50-100$. Why not advertise that price and stay firm? LOL I wasn't meaning this post to turn into a debate but I enjoy a good debate too. Please don't anyone take anything I type here in the wrong way. I'd like a friendly response as I'll be friendly back. I feel like 20k$+ for a ball is obnoxious. And just as fervently someone will defend their right to price their snake at any price they please, which I wont argue with. So why isn't it, in the same manner, ok to ask what price is the lowest you would take for your snake? You have the right to ask whatever price you want and you have the right to try to get the best deal possible on your purchases. I mean you also have the right to 'delete' the email too right? Some sellers even state they will not respond to low ball offers. That's their right. Kind of like a house offer, you get an offer, you can take it, counter offer back, or ignore it all together. Geesh I wish someone would make an offer on my home.. lol off topic.. =)

 

[bakew13]

I learned this from people in the know that run reptile shows and reputable people at local reptile societies. Been in the business for many years. I believe their exact tips were "stay away from fauna and KS".

These people's views may be a little biased since they would like your business at their shows or within their societies. Internet sales would be their competition. Just an observation.