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New house and a home "snake" business

J

jpman78

JD Constriction
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I've been looking to move for awhile being as I'm in a fairly small house and my "herp" room is almost at compacity.

About a week ago I found a house, fit all my bills, had room for a very good sized herp room, walk-in incubator, as well as living space adequate for what I wanted in the rest of the house.

Saturday I went in to make a formal offer and was handed the covenants for the division. I immediately flipped to the "animals" section where it specifically said "pets shall not be maintained or bred for commercial purposes"

Needless to say I wasn't happy...especially considering EVERYONE (builder, selling realtor, buying realtor, etc) involved knew what I was going to do in the basement. The realtor got back to me on the exact meaning per the attorney and he said that not only couldn't I breed my snakes but they also weren't even considered pets. I laughed at this and said if it can be bought in a local pet store I'd say it was a pet.

They selling realtor said no one would ever know and being as they were in the house she doubted anyone would care....but needless to say I passed.

Since that time I have had the realtor look at atleast 8 other subdivisions and their covenants and restrictions and ALL of them disallow breeding for commercial sales......

I'm looking for some suggestions or ideas? A real estate attorney might be my next recourse.
 
Stop looking in sub divisions that have home owners associations.

By a home in an older or unincorporated neighborhood that hasn't got any restrictions.
 
They selling realtor said no one would ever know and being as they were in the house she doubted anyone would care....but needless to say I passed.
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Yes, right. That's until you have to register with USDA as a breeder and they start to inspect you. That jeep parked in your front door is like a neon light telling your neighbors what you are doing. Wherever there are covenants you will find a similar restrictive clause.
 
Also any realtor who is telling you something like that is not one you want to use to represent you in a purchase that could cost you THOUSANDS of dollars if you have to go to court.

I'd dump that one and get one who has some ethics and is not just looking for a commission. Seriously.
 
The selling realtor was the one saying "no one would ever know". My realtor said it wasn't a good idea but apologized for not finding out the specifics of the covenants.

As this is a "hobby breeding" business for me my understanding was the USDA licensing wasn't needed?

Looks like the next listings I'm going to see are going to be either much older or much more secluded. Fun Fun.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
As this is a "hobby breeding" business for me my understanding was the USDA licensing wasn't needed?
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"Hobby breeding business"? Those three don't go very well together. You may want to start by defining if it's going to be a hobby or a business...
 
I believe "hobby business" is common nomenclature for a business run based on a person's hobby and not as a sole source of one's income.

If you are asking am I attempting to make a profitable business I'd have to say yes.

Does the breeding aspect change that in some form I am unaware of?

How does this tie into the USDA? All I can find for info states that sales to individuals and not to dealers or petstores does not dictate getting a license. Is there more info somewhere I'm missing?

Any direction would be appreciate. Thanks in advance.
 
Dan, my understanding was that the USDA/APHIS doesn't get involved with reptiles, the only time they may get involved is if you are also breeding and reselling rodents?

Currently, coldblooded animals, such as snakes and alligators are exempt from coverage under the act.
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http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/fs_awawact.pdf

This of course doesn't say that there are no regulations at the state or local level...that you would have to check into. I believe the term most commonly used is "hobby breeder", as opposed to "hobby business", as that really is kind of an oxymoron.

And Wes is right.....I've never understood the whole "homeowners association" junk. Find someplace where the neighbors aren't encouraged to tell you what you can and can't do....and older houses are usually more well built IMO anyway. ;)
 
Dan, my understanding was that the USDA/APHIS doesn't get involved with reptiles, the only time they may get involved is if you are also breeding and reselling rodents?
Click to expand...

Although I was thinking of raising your own rodents I also thought that if you wanted to have a reptile breeding facility for business purposes, you had to be registered as any other animal breeding facility. Is that true?

Thanks
 
Thanks for the feedback Cathy. The realtor is still on the search but I'm assuming that it's for lots outside of subdivisions or older homes. I might have to go the "fixer upper" route.

Thanks!
 
Check with a title company and get maps that show city and county lines. That will show you where to look.
 
I think it is all a matter of scale. They don't want someone setting up a chicken or pig farm in their back yard. Nor do they want commercial traffic clogging the parking area.

When I lived in Maryland in a townhouse, from 1978 till 1991 I had snakes there and bred them, selling off some of the babies. There was a community restriction against having ANY animals other than cats or dogs, but everyone there, including officers in the association, knew I had the snakes. No one ever said a word to me. Even when the big Harlan truck would deliver rat pups every other week.

Yes, there was the risk that some jerk could just make things tough on me, but that is true everywhere. When we first moved down here to north Florida, on 50 acres zoned as agricultural, some idiot tried passing around a petition to get us thrown out of here because of the snakes. Apparently he couldn't get many people interested because we are still here. Some people called the health department, but fortunately the director of the health department at that time also had snakes himself, and his wife bred rodents. Needless to say, that didn't go very far, but it COULD have. So they are everywhere.

No matter where you move, it will be best to keep a low profile. Breeding snakes just will not make you very popular with most of your neighbors, no matter where you go. And there are people out there with nothing better to do then to try to stick their nose into your business.
 
We bought a fixer-upper ourselves a few months ago. It's an old farm house (100 years!) but in very good condition, two acres, a silo and two barns that guess what they will be turned into? The covenants are restrictive to breeding animals in that area (we are across the street from a lake) but they made an amendment and left this subdivision out of it (by mistake)....Of course I'm not planning on putting a neon sign advertising what's in there, but it's a relief.
 
Thanks for the info.

A little more hunting and my realtor has found areas that don't restrict "breeding" explicitly but also state that you can only have "household pets". Certain legal definitions I have found state that excludes snakes, which seems very odd considering you can buy them at your local petstore.

I did find a pennsylvania court case where they did consider snakes to be household pets:
http://www.columbiapa.org/courts/opinions/criminal/Com. v. Fisher 774 of 2001.rtf

It's sad that you almost have to be "underground" to be able to have reptiles. Something I was hoping to avoid in moving to a more urban area.
 
Agreed. Heck, that's half the reason I wanted to own a house (so I didn't have to deal with landlords telling me what I can and can't have on my property).

Grrrr... whatever happened to our civil liberties?
 
The BoidSmith said:
Although I was thinking of raising your own rodents I also thought that if you wanted to have a reptile breeding facility for business purposes, you had to be registered as any other animal breeding facility. Is that true?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Dan,

From my research and folks I've spoken to with the USDA, they really could care less what you do with reptiles, no matter how many you have. Their regualtion is fairly strict and well laid out for most warm-blooded animals, but even there, feeder rodents are marginal. It depends on who you sell them to, to some extent, but the general rule with rodents I believe is if you sell more than $500 worth per year you should be licensed and inspected.

Again, state regulations vary and can be quite different, but I know Iowa could pretty much not care less about snakes either for the most part.

And we live out in the middle of nowhere too, which helps....we too have an over 100 year old farmhouse (the basic structure anyway, it has been added on to since the original house was built), on 6 acres, several miles out of anything resembling a town....and our only neighbor close enough that they could complain doesn't care. I think we have kind of an unspoken agreement.....we don't complain about him and his buddies having a couple too many drinks and raising hell on their 4 wheelers at 3 am once in awhile, and they don't complain about anything we do. It's perfect. :)
 
Thanks for looking into this Cathy :)

I received a real estate listing from the realtor of homes that didn't prohibit "breeding pets for commercial sales" and the list was only 4 houses long. Very disheartening. I called another realtor for another area nearby and hope that she can find me something but I have low hopes at this point in the immediate market.

While ambitious I think I might persue getting the 2/3 lot vote of the subdivision I want to live in to change the covenant. I realize this might not be possible but I'd like to think atleast eloquently speaking about this hobby and the limitations I'm seeing might make atleast a few more people informed.

Thanks for all the feedback. Any helpful statistics or other info about this hobby that might help my plight would be great :)

Thanks!
 
While ambitious I think I might persue getting the 2/3 lot vote of the subdivision I want to live in to change the covenant. I realize this might not be possible but I'd like to think atleast eloquently speaking about this hobby and the limitations I'm seeing might make atleast a few more people informed.
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I wish you the best of lucks although I've reptiles all my life and haven't been able to convince friends or even relatives! Some people's feelings go beyond rational, it's more powerful than them and they can't control their fear towards those "cold creepy creatures" (sarcasm)!
 
John, I didn't even think to ask...what kind of snakes do you keep? I know it has become popular in some parts of Iowa to impose size limits and such on snakes you can keep.... :rolleyes:

You may want to double-check into your area before announcing to anyone that you keep any.
 
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