New Leo, lots of questions

[Xelas]

I recently acquired a female leo that my friend won in a bet (he lost interest and didn't want her anymore and didn't know how to take care of her), and i have a few questions. She looks to be a normal leo, not a designer gecko or anything like that (she's one you might find in a petco), she's about 2 years old, and her name is Rosie. Here are my questions:

1. How many clutches does the average female lay every year?
2. How long is the average lifespan, or typical lifespan of a leo?
3. When can you tell with complete confidence what sex a leopard gecko is (if you don't know what it was incubated to be)?
4. How long does it take a leo to reach sexual maturity and when is a safe age to breed?
5. Is breeding as simple as putting a male and female together, or do you have to burmate, change light cycles, feed more often (or anything else)?
6. If you breed 2 morphs of different *morphage* (???) do the babies come out as a combination between the two or does 1 come out with the color pattern of 1 of its parents or does the dominant morph gene come through in the offspring (in other words, what can you tell me about gecko genetics)?
7. How many leopard gecko (adults) can a 90 gallon reptile tank safety hold without the risk of overcrowding?
8. How often do you feed adults/juvys per day or week?
9. I've heard that baby leopard geckos should not be mixed with adults for fear of the adults eating the babies, but I've seen pictures with adults and their young in the same tank or area, and @ petco they have leos that range from new hatchlings to a few weeks old. What's the rule on this?
10. I've read that they mainly eat live prey. Does anyone have any experience with feeding them frozen pinkies?
11. I got "in trouble" from the good folks over on the bearded dragon forum cuz I asked if anyone had heard anything about feeding beardies fish (like goldfish). Back when I had my Savannah Monitor he used to love it when I fed him fish, and my Dragons never really had a problem with them either (except getting a good hold on them cuz they were kinda slippery). Has anyone heard anything bad about (or can you think of any reason against) feeding fish to leopard geckos?

These questions either have varying answers when I've searched online, or I have not been able to find these answers. I'm trying to decide whether I should sell Rosie, or start a breeding colony. I have all the equipment needed for a leopard gecko tank (at least I think I do), and so this choice is a little hard for me to make. I'm hoping the answers to my questions will help me make my decision. Thank you for reading and thank you in advance for answering any questions you know of.

 

[kennysreptiles.com]

1. 10-20
2. they can live up to 30 years
3. after 10 months
4. 10 months there mature . rule of thumb is don't breed till there 45 grams
5. It is as simple as putting a male and female together .
6. depends
7. whew tough most people use a racking system but if you relly want to use that i would say 13 max 9 min as if you put less then 9 they will get lost and confused .
8. 3 mealies or roaches a day is what i do for my 4 month olds
9. doesn't matter the age just divide them by size petco isn't a good place to look as they mess up almost all the time . you put leo's to small and they WILL get stressed out stop eating and die
10. no experence but they will eat pinkies no prob
11.never tried but I see nothing aginst it besides the bones in the fish (which is why i only feed left over fish to the dos the bones can hurt them )

 

[Xelas]

1. 10-20
2. they can live up to 30 years
3. after 10 months
4. 10 months there mature . rule of thumb is don't breed till there 45 grams
5. It is as simple as putting a male and female together .
6. depends
7. whew tough most people use a racking system but if you relly want to use that i would say 13 max 9 min as if you put less then 9 they will get lost and confused .
8. 3 mealies or roaches a day is what i do for my 4 month olds
9. doesn't matter the age just divide them by size petco isn't a good place to look as they mess up almost all the time . you put leo's to small and they WILL get stressed out stop eating and die
10. no experence but they will eat pinkies no prob
11.never tried but I see nothing aginst it besides the bones in the fish (which is why i only feed left over fish to the dos the bones can hurt them )

What do the genetics depend on? Dominant genes? Strong strains? Common morphs?
Racks seem like a good idea, but I don't have the room for one right now, only the tank. 13 max and 9 min? Thats more than I expected. How do you mean they will get lost and confused?
And if the bones in the pinkies are ok for the leos to eat and digest, wouldn't a fish's bones be fine as well?

Thanks for all your answers, and if anyone else has any answers, please let me know.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Leopard Gecko Mutations right now are not cut and dry. Their are few proven recessive, and many that people just say they're recessive when in fact it hasn't been proven.
_______________

Recessive:
Albino (Tremper, Las Vegas & Bell)
Patternless
Blizzard

Co Dominant:
Mack Snow
Giant
_______________

Pretty much anything else you see is either selectively bred or uknown at this point.



Pinks should not be fed as a staple. They are used mearly as a treat to give breeding females a boost. I have never even attempted feeding them to my colony, mine do perfectly well on a diet of Mealworms.



Their was a very good reason why you got "in trouble" for wanting to feed your BD fish. That is not a natural diet for them, especially considering BDs should be fed a largely green diet when they're adults. I'm sure you already heard the correct advice, so I won't continue on that. Though I will tell you, don't even consider feeding any Leo fish, for the same reasons behind not feeding them to BDs. It's unnatural, you can introduce parasites, you would be providing insufficient amounts of the proper nutrients, and who knows what it will do to their digestive systems (if you could even successfully get them to take a fish).

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If you do not understand genetics in the least, I would also suggest you check out this site:

http://serpwidgets.com/Genetics/genetics.html

 

[Xelas]

Leopard Gecko Mutations right now are not cut and dry. Their are few proven recessive, and many that people just say they're recessive when in fact it hasn't been proven.
_______________

Recessive:
Albino (Tremper, Las Vegas & Bell)
Patternless
Blizzard

Co Dominant:
Mack Snow
Giant
_______________

Pretty much anything else you see is either selectively bred or uknown at this point.



Pinks should not be fed as a staple. They are used mearly as a treat to give breeding females a boost. I have never even attempted feeding them to my colony, mine do perfectly well on a diet of Mealworms.



Their was a very good reason why you got "in trouble" for wanting to feed your BD fish. That is not a natural diet for them, especially considering BDs should be fed a largely green diet when they're adults. I'm sure you already heard the correct advice, so I won't continue on that. Though I will tell you, don't even consider feeding any Leo fish, for the same reasons behind not feeding them to BDs. It's unnatural, you can introduce parasites, you would be providing insufficient amounts of the proper nutrients, and who knows what it will do to their digestive systems (if you could even successfully get them to take a fish).

How do the pinkies give females a boost? Mealworms are notoriously known for not having all the proper nutrients needed to use as a staple diet, what with their smooth shells that makes dust hard to stick to, high chitin levels, and not the right calcium to phosphorus ratio. I couldn't find the exact location as to where mealworms live, but it did say that in the wild they feed off of dead plants. Not too many dead plants in semi-arid areas of India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. They are not a natural diet, but it is still an insect. I don't mean to pick a fight with you, I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

Fish however, if kept right in good conditions, gutloaded with fish flake and dog food, and dusted with calcium or vitamin powder seems much more nutritional than a mealworm. Extra protein and meat composition (to fill the stomach) should be appealing as well. Unnatural it may be, but as humans, we were meant to be herbivores (curved teeth, not sharp like a carnivore) yet we eat meat. Also, our stomachs weren't designed to ingest milk after infancy, but because of it being a great source of calcium, most of us drink at least a glass a day. So why again is this a bad idea?

 

[Cat_72]

They give females a "boost" because they are high in fat, as well as protein and calcium. Fine when a bit of extra energy is needed (right after laying) or just as an occasional treat, but NOT good as a steady diet.

Instead of us reminding you why this is a bad idea, why don't you go back to your thread on the Bearded Dragon forum and re-read everything posted there? It was clearly explained to you there just why this is a bad idea. Once again you are asking for opinions, and then arguing when you get them......

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Listen to the people about the fish. A leo in the wild is likely to never even see a fish, let alone get the chance to try to eat it.

Also, human teeth are classic omnivore teeth. The front teeth are sharp (with canines) for eating meat, and the back ones are flat for eating plant matter. Just thought you should know.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Mealworms are notoriously known for not having all the proper nutrients needed to use as a staple diet,

Correct, if you don't GUTLOAD them first (as should be done with crickets as well).

what with their smooth shells that makes dust hard to stick to, high chitin levels, and not the right calcium to phosphorus ratio.

I have no problems dusting my mealworms, and the calcium/phosphorus issue is corrected by dusting as is commonly done.

They are not a natural diet, but it is still an insect. I don't mean to pick a fight with you, I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

Mealworms are more natural then a fish ever would be.

Also, our stomachs weren't designed to ingest milk after infancy, but because of it being a great source of calcium, most of us drink at least a glass a day. So why again is this a bad idea?

I don't, I think milk is gross.
________________________

I think Cat gave you very solid advice. Return to the thread on the BDs and reread it.

 

[Xelas]

They give females a "boost" because they are high in fat, as well as protein and calcium. Fine when a bit of extra energy is needed (right after laying) or just as an occasional treat, but NOT good as a steady diet.

Instead of us reminding you why this is a bad idea, why don't you go back to your thread on the Bearded Dragon forum and re-read everything posted there? It was clearly explained to you there just why this is a bad idea. Once again you are asking for opinions, and then arguing when you get them......

Once again, by asking this question, I was never asking for any opinions (especially unqualified opinions). What I was asking for was documented facts or first hand experience. I guess no one has tried feeding fish because everyone has read that they are not "natural." As we all know, Savannah Monitors and many other monitors can eat fish, yet we all know that they are far too slow to naturally catch fish. They eat them. So I guess no one has tried this except for me. My Bearded Dragon has been eating fish for months, he is healthy, happy, and he likes to eat fish. If I wanted inexperienced people giving me unproven facts, I would go ask anyone off the streets, I wouldn't ask experienced people what they don't know or what they "think" in a forum dedicated specifically to a single species. My questions were asking people with documented facts or people with first hand experience. So if anyone knows what they are talking about, any responses would be greatly appreciated. All others are irrelevant.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Alexander, you're fishing (hah hah) for someone to tell you it's ok to feed your BDs & Leos fish. You aren't going to find a creditable individual to say yes.

I've kept & bred Leos for over 5 years. I think that I'm far from "unqualified" in answering your question. But I guess I MUST be "unqualified" since I won't tell you it's ok to do, right?

You can do whatever you want in the end, but it's your pets that will suffer.

 

[Cat_72]

*sigh*

Here's a couple of quotes from the last time you posted this nonsense.

The first thing I would consider if I were thinking of feeding a bearded fish is that they come from the deserts of Australia and in all probability would never see a fish or anything resembling one in their lives. That alone would be reason enough for me.
This leaves the possibility that their digestive systems would not be conditioned to properly process fish, particularly the scales which are for all intents and purposes indigestable much like beaks and fur.
Now you might say that they would never see a domestic cricket, a super worm, or a lobster roach in the wild either, but those are a whole lot closer to the insects they do feed on than a fish.
Having said that we can consider the cons of actually feeding them such a diet.

One problem to consider is an issue with thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency. Many fish contain the enzyme thiaminase which destroys B1.
Another problem is fish, especially "junk fish" like feeders commonly host parasites that if fed live or fresh killed can be transmitted to the lizard. Garter snakes are known to suffer problems with round worms, tape worms, and other internal parasites when maintained on a diet of live feeder fish.

Wow, Alex.......you come here asking for advice, and when a couple of well-meaning folks give their opinions, you insult them? Argue with them? That's not a very good way to get any kind of CONSTRUCTIVE comments.

Nonetheless, in a short search on using goldfish as feeders, I found a few very interesting bits of information...

Feeders and digestion. Some types of feeders (certain minnows, for example) have high fat content that leads to unattractively obese and poorly colored specimens. Others, such as goldfish, have large, hard-to-digest scales, which can obstruct proper digestion, leading to illness and death.

Feeders and nutrition. Feeder fish alone rarely constitute a complete and balanced diet, so other foods should be offered as well, and feeders may need to be withheld on occasion until spoiled fish begin to accept more standard fare.

Most feeder fish are kept in very crowded,dirty conditions(like an overstocked tank). The stress from the overcrowding and poor water quality makes them very susceptible to disease. Also sometimes goldfish carry pathogens which can make tropical fish very sick.

Goldfish (Carassius auratus) are the traditional feeder fish to buy. However, goldfish, while inexpensive, are a bony fish with tough scales. Only very large fish can handle them.

That information took me all of perhaps 5 minutes to find. The general consensus on every site I went to was that fish were a very poor choice for feeders, and several of the sites, though there still were no specific nutritional analysis, stated that they have very little nutritional value (except in ther eyeballs, ew) and were extremely high in fat content.

 

[Xelas]

Alexander, you're fishing (hah hah) for someone to tell you it's ok to feed your BDs & Leos fish. You aren't going to find a creditable individual to say yes.

I've kept & bred Leos for over 5 years. I think that I'm far from "unqualified" in answering your question. But I guess I MUST be "unqualified" since I won't tell you it's ok to do, right?

You can do whatever you want in the end, but it's your pets that will suffer.

I'm not looking for someone to say its ok, but if someone is going to say its not ok, I'd like to know why. You say you've kept leos for 5 years and you must have bred many generations, but have you ever fed any of them fish? You never know what you can do until you try.

 

[Xelas]

Here's a couple of quotes from the last time you posted this nonsense.

As was said before, the “possibility” that their digestive systems would not be conditioned to properly process fish is of course a possibility as all things are more or less “possible,” but seeing as it is flesh and blood, meat, it is highly “probable” that it can be digested. I feed my frogs goldfish, and they eat it fine. Both my Dragons and PacMan Frogs digest the fish completely. I know this because I crush their waste into dust or small chunks and feed it to my worms so the worms can make casting out of it. No scales or anything resembling scales has ever been seen. Most scales are clear, or opaque, but to go through a living creature and come out undetected would constitute DIGESTION.

And Cat, you keep using that word “opinion.” When did I ever ask for opinions? I don’t want your opinions, as experts, I would expect experts base their beliefs and practices on fact. I’m not insulting anyone, and if you can’t handle a question, and then follow up questions, don’t bother with answering anything or complaining about something which you have no experience answering.

 

[BalloonzForU]

OK, instead of arguing with you, I'm going to tell you this..... Go ahead and try to feed your Leo fish. I think I can speak for most of us, that we are not willing to risk our animals lives to see if you're right. You want to feed them fish, fine do so, we cannot stop you. You will not find any responsible breeder or hobbyist here or any other reptile forum to say oh yeah I tried it. There is too much risk involved to make me risk my animals health and lives to see if your theory is right, so go ahead you do it and let us know how it goes.

 

[Cat_72]

Again, from the last thread you started about this, and you were referring at that time to the same posts I quoted in my last reply on this thread. Then, Clay and I knew what we were talking about and you looked forward to talking to us again, yet now I have no experience answering thise question and am just complaining?

See, now you two know what you're talking about! Those other answers (i know they meant well) told me just about next to nothing, and I did not mean to be offensive in any way, I was just kinda playing the devil's advocate. Its kinda funny though...I've been working on another experiment using lizard poop to feed to dung beetles (hoping to make a good fertilizer), and I've never seen any scales in the poop.
Crickets are a pain to keep, let alone breed and I wouldn't dare fathom the thought of breeding the nasty little things. Fish though, make sense to me and that is why I defend them as I do. As for the Dragons' diets, we, as humans are not carnivores, yet we eat meat. Our teeth were not meant for meat, but have adapted through the ages. I'm not trying to speed up the evolution of a lizard, but if one were to think outside "the box," wouldn't one create something that has never been done, never seen, or at least never tried? Where would we be if we all stuck to how everyone else does things?
Oh yeah, and moisture content...not that I know or anything, but fish live in water, they eat, sleep, and breathe in water. Crickets however, do not. I'm sure fish have a higher moisture content (common sense, come on now, really), and as for the fat, why do we feed pinkies and mice if not for the fat content? Thank you for all your answers, they help me think outside the proverbial box, and i look forward to talking to you two again.

Perhaps they do "digest" the scales, but are they utilizing what they are eating? Just because the acids have broken them down into passable matter does not mean that it is being utilized. That would be the question there, and you are choosing to completely ignore the other reasons that have been given why it is NOT a good idea. The FACT that fish are very high in fat, and have very little nutritional value except in their eyeballs. The FACT that feeder fish very commonly harbor parasites and disease. The FACT that just because you see no remains in the feces, it does not prove that parts of the undigested scales are not lodging inside of their intestines (unless, of course, you have done autopsies on the animals that you have been feeding them to).

There was a big stink about 15 years ago over dog food companies putting feathers and such into their dog food. When the food was analyzed by the lab, the feathers are technically protein, however a completely unuseable form of protein. The animal's system could not UTILIZE it, but it was, "technically", protein. No, you didn't see it in their feces. Why fill your animals with unusable matter, when there are proven healthy and less risky methods of feeding them?


Perhaps those of us here with more experience and common sense (not to mention the ability to do some very basic research on our own) have not tried feeding our animals fish, but perhaps it's because we care enough about our animals to not risk their health and well being to experiment on them. Again, if you are so worried about things like crickets being a "pain" for you to keep, the obvious answer would be to not keep pets that eat them. But then, that's just that darned common sense talking again.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm not looking for someone to say its ok, but if someone is going to say its not ok, I'd like to know why. You say you've kept leos for 5 years and you must have bred many generations, but have you ever fed any of them fish? You never know what you can do until you try.

You have been told no many times & given reasons why, yet you continue to push for an answer that you want to hear.

No, I haven't ever fed any of my Leos fish. The reason being is that I want my colonies to stay healthy and have the best care possible. Feeding fish is not on the list of providing them the best care.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think it speaks volumes about your character & ethics that you are willing to risk the health of your animals for convenience.

 

[snared99]

Wow I have seen alot of stupid argument in my years but this takes the cake. I cant beleive you are arguing with the fact of feeding a fish to a insectivore. Last I checked a fish is not a insect. Now a pinkie is not a insect either but that is a proven food source. And in addition to the mealworm controversym if thousands of reptile owners use mealies how are they a bad staple??
Now you came to a site to get answers, which many here gave, and you insult them with saying they are unqualified. This makes no sense to me, you are the newbie telling others that proven facts are wrong( guess 1 + 2 isnt 3 any more) Basically if your not satisfied with the answers dont post and insult the members here who work hard to keep this hobby what it is.

 

[SirKevin]

When pinkies are fed to leos, they do not have bones (mice bones develop several days after birth) and thus do not pose the same risks that feeding fish would...

Jesus, feeding fish to a leopard gecko? That notion is too stupid to even think about.