New member scams

[TailsWithScales]

Harald or any mod,

Is there a way to block new members from creating classified ads within 30 or 60 days of becoming a member so as to help maybe alleviate some of the new member classified scams??? I've noticed that these scammers create their account and within a few days or a week have taken someones money.

Or maybe have them blocked for 30-60 unless they want to pay to post their add????

There's got to be something to help alleviate the problem and keep folks from losing their money.

 

[sschind]

Has this been a problem? I don't use the classifieds to sell but if I knew I couldn't post my animals right away after registering I probably wouldn't bother registering (That is not taking into consideration the other benefits of the site) and If I was a scammer I'd just wait the 30-60 days and then start posting. I don't see what making people wait would help. I don't think making them wait 30-60 days will suddenly turn them into honest people. If they want to scam they will still scam just 2 months later and it hurts the honest people.

Just my opinion.

 

[polasian]

Harald or any mod,

Is there a way to block new members from creating classified ads within 30 or 60 days of becoming a member so as to help maybe alleviate some of the new member classified scams??? I've noticed that these scammers create their account and within a few days or a week have taken someones money.

Or maybe have them blocked for 30-60 unless they want to pay to post their add????

There's got to be something to help alleviate the problem and keep folks from losing their money.

This site does more then most to help alleviate the problems, but nothing will ever be enough ...welcome to the Internet. What this site, nor any other site, can NOT do is protect someone from themselves. Ultimately its up to the buyer to use common sense. Run an inquiry thread in the BOI, or RUN LIKE HELL when you see one, two, three, etc... red flags in an ad. Even if everything seems kosher...BUT your gut tells you otherwise, then move on to the next ad. Of course none of that will ever guarantee you 100% from being scammed, but it is what it is.

As far as what you're suggesting...(as an example I'll use that BOI thread that spawned your post)...had that scammer waited the 30 or 60 days to post that ad...do you honestly believe the results would be any different? I don't.

The only thing this "probationary" period will accomplish, is to hurt this site. Considering that this site does a lot to protect its members, if it does suffer then that will just open up more avenues for scammers to take advantage of. I'm positive that everyone (except scammers) would love for there to be other fail-safes, however they have to be realistic to be effective. Don't get me wrong, I like that you posted this and hope this will lead to some new ideas on how to make it harder for scammers to play their games.

 

[WebSlave]

Nothing I can do can FORCE people to not make unwise decisions.....

 

[hhmoore]

I had started to address this in the other thread, but it really didn't belong on the BOI.

Variations of this idea have been presented in the past, and the basic fault is that it detracts significantly from the desirability of this site to new members; so the negative impact far outweighs the potential benefit. I don't like that it is easy for somebody to access the classifieds and try to scam our members (including me), but imposing restrictions such as extended time or post requirements would simply lead to people going elsewhere.

Paid classifieds actually cut back significantly on the scammer activity, not just because of the required payment, but the process made it more difficult to set up an account under a false name. That system wasn't perfect, but we didn't have to constantly be on the watch to try to catch the next incarnation of known scammers. Obviously, with the more devious methods utilized by one of the recent problem children, the required payment wouldn't be a hindrance, since the account could be set up to match the cracked PayPal info.

I'd love to have an arsenal of ways to thwart scammer activity, and keep them off this site; but we can't drive away all the other new members in the process. Besides, a dedicated scammer will find a way. Six months ago, how many of us would have thought about people purchasing access to established (positively rated) Ebay accounts , or cracked PayPal accounts. The methods used are getting better, so we have to be more careful...but how many times to we hear about people sending payment without getting, and verifiying, basic information (full name, address, and phone). References are often a joke, but you should check them - nobody is going to give you the name of somebody that will say they are a low life POS...but they might give you a name you recognize that has never dealt with them. If all the references are local, they could just as easily be buddies/partners/aliases.

It's a tough time on both sides: as a buyer, I'm less likely to give a new name a chance - preferring to stick with people I know I can trust...but we're all new sometime, someplace. Not having a recognized name, reputation, or list of solid references doesn't mean somebody doesn't have what they are advertising, or take great care of their animals.

(I've been rambling....you get the idea)

 

[TailsWithScales]

I guess a lot of it just is my directing some serious frustration into an attempt to help because it just seems to have happened a lot more frequently. I'm not oblivious to the HUGE benefits of this site and have personally used the classifieds myself many times in the past.

I know it would be potential turn offs for new members. I had thought of that but there are times that drive to help (especially after being a victim of scamming) is far greater then the possibility of sounding like a dork for mentioning the other thoughts in my brain. And yes I know a lot is just buyer common sense.

Thanks for listening though.

 

[hhmoore]

Christine, I directed the discussion here because a lot of people share your frustration. While that particular suggestion isn't really feasible, sometimes the ensuing dialogue can bring good ideas to light. If not, hopefully people will at least get the message that they have to be more careful, and actually take measures to avoid getting ripped off.

 

[Talkenlate04]

Very good points made for both sides on the topic. I myself am new to this site, but not new to selling online. People dead set on stealing will find a way and that is just the sad true. In the beginning I found selling online very hard. I had to grind it out and build up a reputation even bend over backwards to fix a small thing here and there because I did not want to ruin my rep. That took a few years but it was worth it. Now I can lean on those 100's of good reviews and that has helped my transition into reptiles. And the people that mentioned this are right, if this site had restricted me from posting in the FS section right away I am pretty sure I would have left the site never to return. But since that did not happen I have really started to like this site and appreciate the things that are being done for us.

Bottom line I guess is there is a lot a buyer can do to protect themselves. Even if a seller comes across as nice and honest I still use my credit card through paypal the first time I buy from them. This gives me a double layer of protection. Paypal as most of you know I am sure, has a crap buyer protection policy. There are so many holes in that policy I am not even sure why they have it. SOMETIMES I have been backed up by paypal but you really have to have all your ducks in a row for that to happen. I have won claims in my favor before but then paypal told me they were unable to recover the funds from the seller. Well DUH they stole it from me.

This is where my credit card comes in. In the cases where paypal falls though on me my credit card company has not faltered. *Yet. I am not saying it can’t happen, but I am more protected then I was if I did not use it.

If that first purchase goes smoothly and I get what I expected I begin to relax a little on future transactions with that person. I know I rambled a little here but I felt like sharing.

 

[polasian]

This is where my credit card comes in. In the cases where paypal falls though on me my credit card company has not faltered.

I think (I'm not 100% sure though) that if you get scammed and Paypal fails to do anything about it, it wont help you any even if your CC was the source of your Paypal funds. If you accept PayPal's TOS, you are in effect waiving your rights to credit card consumer protection laws.

I believe this to be the case, but again, I'm not positive.

 

[shlages]

What i'll do is if I see something in my area tha looks suspicious,i'll ask to come see the advertised merchandise. It makes it harder for some1 to scam if they think that someone "in the area" is wanting to see they're stuff.Not saying that's the end-all answer to scammers. I called a guy out a couple weeks back that had ads for ball pythons & beardeds.He listed himself as in NYC. I asked where he was in NYC & if I could see what he has.Needless to say he never responded,then changed his add once everyone started to call him out(he even emailed people pics of a Canadian co.'s beardie!) . Just a few days ago this winner then pm'd someone asking if they wanted to buy a pied,I believe.
I am overly paranoid when it comes to purchases on a computer of any kind.So as a general rule of thumb,I only do business with verifiable,reputable & reliable breeders. Granted the pricing might be a little more,but, in the long run its worth it.I realized this after I had made my first online animal purchase.

Uh oh... I caught the rambling bug too!
Sorry all.

 

[tinmantribe5]

Thats the best part about Fauna over Kingsnake in wich I actually buy off both,so I can give my Honest opinion about this subject.Well like I have told my Daughter who is a new registered user Dont ever buy off somone you have not researched as well as you possible can with the info Fauna has given to us all,thanks (Rich,Harold,Clay,etc....) sorry if I left anyone out! I use these name only because they have personally scolleded me about small things maybe I have said or done over the years but I have learned tooken advise "Wisley and became a better snake keeper for it! I guess what I trying to say is we are in charge of what we buy how we research the person we are buying from,from such things as trader ratings,Karma,and personal conversation with real People.I use both Fauna and Kingsnake but I take a much greater chance in failure when I blindly buy off Kingsnake,Yes it says how long they have been regitered but nothing on such things like how many dealings have went sour or awsome.I just dont buy off any body under a 2 rating on fauna and some might say thats not fair but you can boost you ratings by buying off a reputible breeder on this forum because lets face it if you have never visually bought stock to sell how can we trust in you enough to actually have that said stock. am sorry for going on so long but research everybody Research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Talkenlate04]

I think (I'm not 100% sure though) that if you get scammed and Paypal fails to do anything about it, it wont help you any even if your CC was the source of your Paypal funds. If you accept PayPal's TOS, you are in effect waiving your rights to credit card consumer protection laws.

I believe this to be the case, but again, I'm not positive.

I had a seller send me an empty box once. Yep that is right totally empty.

Paypal ruled in the sellers favor saying when they made an inquiry the seller was able to provide a tracking number and shipping date. Their point of view was I could not prove there was nothing in the box but he could prove something was sent. I know what you are thinking what the

BUT my credit card company backed me up and I got all of my $1500 back.
Maybe I did get lucky but my point was you are far better off using a credit card through paypal than not using one.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Due diligence. If youre unsure about a seller, request more information that is unique to the transaction.
Dont be afraid of the small breeder or new name. People that are honest will do what they can to prove their honesty. I, for one, will bend over backwards to make sure you are comfortable with anything you buy. I made a joke in chat the other day about how buyers will want pics with today's paper, soda can, dim lighting, with Halle Berry, etc. But in reality, if seeing the animal you want to purchase with some sort of unique ID will make you comfortable, a good seller/breeder will do that for you.

 

[TailsWithScales]

Konstantin,

People are still being scammed even though they are seeing the animal they're supposedly purchasing. The scammers are stealing photos and saying they own an animal which they really don't then they take your money. And information is just as easily forged.



I've even encountered people trying to selling me an animal that they say is a specific locality or morph and charge me the pricing for said animal only to find out that I know they're fibbing. Then they get upset with ME for calling their bluff.

 

[Mister Internet]

I think (I'm not 100% sure though) that if you get scammed and Paypal fails to do anything about it, it wont help you any even if your CC was the source of your Paypal funds. If you accept PayPal's TOS, you are in effect waiving your rights to credit card consumer protection laws.

I believe this to be the case, but again, I'm not positive.

PayPal has absolutely no say over whether your CC company can reimburse you funds that were obtained from someone via your credit account, illegally or fraudulently. They are totally separate agreements... all CC companies I've ever worked with or had an account with state (to the effect that) "By using this card, you automatically have our buyer protection", they don't care if you're using it at McDonald's, and adult bookstore, or PayPal.

That's why he said be sure to use a personal credit card when paying through PayPal... the fund are originating from your line of credit with <XYZ> Credit Company, not PayPal, so if PayPal doesn't do the right thing, <XYZ> Credit Company is still obligated to replace funds (well, forgive debt, in this case) that you're able to prove were solicited and received in a fraudulent manner. Your transaction as far as the CC company is concerned is between the CC company and PayPal. If you don't get what you paid for (a satisfactory PayPal transaction, in this case), they are absolutely obligated to honor whatever terms they have regarding buyers using their credit cards and not receiving what they paid for.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Konstantin,

People are still being scammed even though they are seeing the animal they're supposedly purchasing. The scammers are stealing photos and saying they own an animal which they really don't then they take your money. And information is just as easily forged.



I've even encountered people trying to selling me an animal that they say is a specific locality or morph and charge me the pricing for said animal only to find out that I know they're fibbing. Then they get upset with ME for calling their bluff.

You cant fake an index card inside a picture that says " "Breeder name", Todays Date, Hello "Buyers Name"

 

[polasian]

You cant fake an index card inside a picture that says " "Breeder name", Todays Date, Hello "Buyers Name"

If someone can make one or two thousand $$$ on selling a snake that they don't have...they'll spend the 2 or 3 hours on Photoshop, if need be.

One can fake anything...

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Yeah but you can tell each and every single one of those pictures is photoshopped. Id like someone with a lot of photoshop experience to go ahead and make a fake picture of a snake and a handwritten index card, just as an experiment, and post it up.

 

[TailsWithScales]

Yeah but you can tell each and every single one of those pictures is photoshopped. Id like someone with a lot of photoshop experience to go ahead and make a fake picture of a snake and a handwritten index card, just as an experiment, and post it up.

I would ablige you but don't really feel like getting banned or having the impression placed on anyone that I'm a scammer or anything the like.

But yeah it's extremely easy to do that.

It would not be hard to me to take a photo of two snakes placed into a breeding line card and print that and take a photo of it. Wouldn't be hard to steal a photo on KS and create a feeding card print that and take a photo. Hell I could even steal a photo, watermark it, then place into a feeding car, breeding line card, invoice and print it and take photo of it or even scan it directly and post it. Frankly that's a piece of cake.

And as Polasian said someone with an hour or two of photo shop experience could whip that out likes it's nothing.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

So youre saying you can PLACE a handwritten index card that says "Im tails with scales, and this is my snake" into a photo and make it look real? Because what youre describing is printing actual physical paper and adding pics to other pics. How are you going to put a handwritten card into the picture? You can email it to me, I want to see it. Feel free to use my gallery photos.