New price order?

[The BoidSmith]

We are all aware the economy is going through rough times. People have trouble paying their mortgages or even filling their tank with gas. In spite of this we still see individuals offering animals for sale at outrageous prices. This is no criticism to the price itself, as you can ask whatever you want for your property. But really, how does asking in excess of $5,000 for a snake sit with everyone strictly from a business approach perspective? Even if you receive an offer for $2,500 for the animal, would you reject it? My point is that there seems to be a disconnection of some people with the current state of affairs and their approach to business. The days of the $10,000 snake are gone; at least that's my opinion. It seems to me that the current economic situation calls for a new price order.

 

[shrap]

We are all aware the economy is going through rough times. People have trouble paying their mortgages or even filling their tank with gas. In spite of this we still see individuals offering animals for sale at outrageous prices. This is no criticism to the price itself, as you can ask whatever you want for your property. But really, how does asking in excess of $5,000 for a snake sit with everyone strictly from a business approach perspective? Even if you receive an offer for $2,500 for the animal, would you reject it? My point is that there seems to be a disconnection of some people with the current state of affairs and their approach to business. The days of the $10,000 snake are gone; at least that's my opinion. It seems to me that the current economic situation calls for a new price order.

I dont see anything else in our country getting drastically cheaper just because the economy is in the crapper. Why should the reptile market be any different? In fact many markets are actually charging more (been to the grocery store lately?).

 

[The BoidSmith]

Yes, although groceries is one thing that we can't live without; on the other hand reptiles...

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I dont see anything else in our country getting drastically cheaper just because the economy is in the crapper. Why should the reptile market be any different? In fact many markets are actually charging more (been to the grocery store lately?).

Hobbies are usually the first to take a plumett.

Because people focus more on spending money on gas and food and other necessities, they spend less on their hobby of choice, so because less people are buying, its taking a costlier animal to sell, to make up for the costs of the animals you havent sold, which then makes people less apt to buy, because they dont have THAT kind of money to spend on an animal, that they could have gotten cheaper a couple months ago. I also think because the price to deliver feeders* for those that dont breed their own*, and the cost of food to feed them too is going up, people start to charge more for their animals to feed the ones they do have. Again, backfiring because less people are buying, so making things go all out of whack. This trend wont continue if the prices on everything keep rising, and pay does not increase with it as well.

Eventually, stuff WILL have to come down, and people will start eating it on their animals. Its just a matter of when, really at this point. and then thats when your best time to buy is. ( from a business standpoint anyway)

At least, this is how i look at it.
I like learning/talking about market stuff, and economics, and how everything is sort of like a chain reaction, where everything affects everything in a market. there are lots of different ways to look at things.

 

[shrap]

I understand where you are coming from Dan. I just dont see the need for people to go into panic mode and drastically change the market at this point. If the economy is going to completely tank somewhere down the road then that will take care of the prices on all non essential good and services in this country. If the market rebounds then things will be able to carry on as normal. Where supply and demand will dictate future market prices.

At this point I just dont see the need to panic and prematurely alter the market. It is just too soon for that in my book. The next 12-24 months will tell the tale.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I understand where you are coming from Dan. I just dont see the need for people to go into panic mode and drastically change the market at this point. If the economy is going to completely tank somewhere down the road then that will take care of the prices on all non essential good and services in this country. If the market rebounds then things will be able to carry on as normal. Where supply and demand will dictate future market prices.

At this point I just dont see the need to panic and prematurely alter the market. It is just too soon for that in my book. The next 12-24 months will tell the tale.

I agree. a panic will harm more than do good. I think people should just stick with it for a bit. Things will start looking better soon enough.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I understand where you are coming from Dan. I just dont see the need for people to go into panic mode and drastically change the market at this point. If the economy is going to completely tank somewhere down the road then that will take care of the prices on all non essential good and services in this country. If the market rebounds then things will be able to carry on as normal. Where supply and demand will dictate future market prices.

At this point I just dont see the need to panic and prematurely alter the market. It is just too soon for that in my book. The next 12-24 months will tell the tale.

No, need to panic, that's for sure. Again, more power to those that can weather the current situation and decide not modify their prices. My take though is that the $5,000 snakes are not going to sell that easy as a few years ago. Even if someone has the money to spend there are other priorities down the road. These times are good for those individuals who sell more affordable animals.

 

[shrap]

My take though is that the $5,000 snakes are not going to sell that easy as a few years ago.

I think we have seen that happening for the last two or three years already. It was only 4 or 5 years ago that a Spider Ball was 10k-15k. Now they are $300 all day long. The laws of the marketplace (supply and demand) have already been busy doing just what you suggest and will continue to do so.

Personally I have no problem with the laws of the marketplace lowering prices. It is just going to open up the market to tens of thousands of people who have been priced out of the market to this point.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I think we have seen that happening for the last two or three years already. It was only 4 or 5 years ago that a Spider Ball was 10k-15k. Now they are $300 all day long. The laws of the marketplace (supply and demand) have already been busy doing just what you suggest and will continue to do so.

Personally I have no problem with the laws of the marketplace lowering prices. It is just going to open up the market to tens of thousands of people who have been priced out of the market to this point.

Furthermore, I don't foresee new ball python designer morphs entering the market at what they used to. You may very well produce the first brand new killer morph but if there's no buyer for it, you are dead in the water. Now more than ever it's the buyer that sets the price, and not the seller. A seller may want "X" amount for a snake but ha has to be prepared to negociate to "where he has never been before" or he will not move your animals. There's one psychological aspect to it. If the buyer gets used to the "new morph" in the ads for a long period of time he tends to loose interest.

In my opinion this is a very good time for less expensive snakes species (or normals of certain morphs).

Best

 

[Seamus Haley]

In my opinion this is a very good time for less expensive snakes species (or normals of certain morphs).

I don't think it's ever really been a bad time for less expensive species.

The majority of the high dollar animal sales have gone to people looking to produce more of the same as a financial investment. While they may own that particular animal for the remainder of the animal's life, they aren't really an end consumer in the strictest sense. Conversations with other people who are functioning on some level as a business or are simply the more diehard herpetoculturalists can skew the perspective of the overall market.

It has always been much easier to sell (meaning find a customer for, not a question of total work involved) one hundred ten dollar animals than it has been to sell a single thousand dollar animal.

I believe you're right about the prices of some morphs. Supply constantly goes up from the point of initial production and demand goes down as consumers who wanted one have obtained one. Mix in the current overall economic slump and the tendency for slightly more tightfisted budgeting by those who are hobbiest breeders or smaller operation types looking to invest and the prices drop. "By how much?" is always the question that matters... to those looking to buy and sell morphs anyway, I've always liked what natural selection did a lot better.

 

[hhmoore]

I understand where you are coming from Dan. I just dont see the need for people to go into panic mode and drastically change the market at this point. If the economy is going to completely tank somewhere down the road then that will take care of the prices on all non essential good and services in this country. If the market rebounds then things will be able to carry on as normal. Where supply and demand will dictate future market prices.

At this point I just dont see the need to panic and prematurely alter the market. It is just too soon for that in my book. The next 12-24 months will tell the tale.

Ah - the voice of a reasonable man that didn't get in over his head by spending more money than he could afford or producing more animals than he could deal with. Smart cookie

 

[hhmoore]

My take:
The market is to a large extent being driven by the consumer AND the the person I did not describe in my previous post...For whatever reason ($$ being one of them) people seem to consider breeding a natural progression of this hobby now. It just isn't enough to love the animals and keep a bunch of them anymore. Not only is supply increasing at a greater rate than ever before, but there are more and more people that aren't willing to hold onto animals. They produce more than they are comfortable caring for - $$, time, and space, are a few of the factors that come into consideration - so they start cutting prices. The part I think is funny is that they continue to produce more than they can deal with...they just can't seem to let a season go by without breeding.
At the same time, the "backdoor prices" have become relatively common knowledge. Many people don't think twice about offering half the asking price...and some take an attitude when they are turned down, so the assumption could be that they are used to those offers being accepted. Then, there is wholesale.... People's interpretation of wholesale varies drastically. By definition, it is the selling in quantity, as to jobbers or retailers, for resale. How many of us have NOT had a prospective buyer say that they only pay wholesale? I've had countless people tell me that when they are inquiring about a single animal....or one they want for a breeding project. IMO, if I am buying an animal that I want for me & am planning on keeping it for a few years before considering selling it - it isn't wholesale. I don't have a problem selling things at a huge reduction from normal pricing, IF I am selling off a number of animals to a business that is going to resell them. Did you ever ask somebody to send you a copy of their tax certificate?? Gotta love those responses, lol.

* remembered this part before I finished, but didn't feel like fitting it in, so I'm going to just tack it on at the end.....
watching the classifieds & deal shopping has become a hobby in itself. It has become painfully obvious that a portion of sellers are going to cut prices until an animal sells, so people are willing to wait them out. It might take them 6 months longer to get what they want, but the odds of somebody agreeing to a lowball offer increase substantially as time goes on.

**Of course, this is all just the take of a person that likes snakes more than he likes most people....I am definitely not cut out for sales, because I get tend to get annoyed or frustrated with the antics of today's consumers; and my response is generally to say the heck with it, pull my ads, & take a break from trying to sell for a few months. Saves me the hassle of shipping anyway, lol.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Breeding is the natural progression as you say. It's the ultimate challenge as a keeper to be able to succesfully breed the species in captivity. Similarly, zoo's reputation oftentimes lie more on the success of their breeding programs than on the diversity of the species they keep.

As for people offering half the price that wouldn't happen if sellers didn't inflate prices by 100% Seriously though, if you look at the prices on the www and then check the same company's prices (for the same animals) at shows you can tell animals are way overpriced on the internet. Of course, not everyone can attend shows all the time...

 

[Lucille]

Furthermore, I don't foresee new ball python designer morphs entering the market at what they used to. You may very well produce the first brand new killer morph but if there's no buyer for it, you are dead in the water. Now more than ever it's the buyer that sets the price, and not the seller. A seller may want "X" amount for a snake but ha has to be prepared to negociate to "where he has never been before" or he will not move your animals. There's one psychological aspect to it. If the buyer gets used to the "new morph" in the ads for a long period of time he tends to loose interest.

In my opinion this is a very good time for less expensive snakes species (or normals of certain morphs).

Best

Interesting theory. But I disagree. It may be that buyers may be more careful about plopping down 5 or 10K on a new snake, but those may not be the 'new morph' buyers. I still feel that there may be a strong market for the brand new killer morphs.
I think there are people who have fallen in love with the morph idea and while there is no question that any snake is beautiful, there is a strong demand for the new.

I was restocking my garden last year and wanted some daylilies, and was looking around because it had been quite a while since I bought. I ended up with some nice plants but found that there is a very strong market for new cultivars and that there was actually competition to pay many thousands of dollars for spectacular new registered cultivars.

There is no question that there are problems with the economy. But there is also a very strong market for expensive items, everything from daylilies to Hummers to Yorkies and I think that there is a place in there for snakes too.

Man does not live by bread alone. Let's see how it goes, but I would be surprised if demand falls for beautiful new morphs.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Seriously though, if you look at the prices on the www and then check the same company's prices (for the same animals) at shows you can tell animals are way overpriced on the internet. Of course, not everyone can attend shows all the time...

This isn't unusual in any market. My Uncle is a bee farmer, and he charges $1-2 more online for his products then at shows. It's a convenience thing. If show animals/products weren't moderately lower priced then on the internet, do you think they (the shows) would be as popular? People can be lazy, why both driving 1-2 hours to a show (or even farther for the BIG shows) when you can pay the same price online without getting off the sofa?

 

[blueapplepaste]

Prices are already coming down on their own accord. I think that the economy is making it harder to move animals; but for many people their snakes are not just a "hobby"; its more than that. I know when money was/is tight for me, I drive less, eat out less, etc to save money. I enjoy my reptiles too much to sacrifice them; and I still try to put money away for those "big purchases" so I can continue to expand my collection.

Now if things get bad enough, of course I'll scale down or do whatever so I can survive. But for me, and many others, their reptiles are not the first thing to go in hard times. The market will adjust itself just fine w/o artificially lowering prices to accommodate the economy.

 

[hhmoore]

Breeding is the natural progression as you say. It's the ultimate challenge as a keeper to be able to succesfully breed the species in captivity. Similarly, zoo's reputation oftentimes lie more on the success of their breeding programs than on the diversity of the species they keep.

As for people offering half the price that wouldn't happen if sellers didn't inflate prices by 100% Seriously though, if you look at the prices on the www and then check the same company's prices (for the same animals) at shows you can tell animals are way overpriced on the internet. Of course, not everyone can attend shows all the time...

It used to be a natural progression...now it seems to be something different. I'm having a tough time coming up with a good explanation - I'll blame it on the hour. People are jumping into breeding without the experience that we used to see. Maybe it is related to the readily available information on the internet , but people are starting to breed that haven't got a clue what to do about some of the simplest problems. Heck, I see people advertising that can't identify the sex of the babies (speaking of snakes, and sexually dimorphic lizards).

As for the second part of your statement - while it may be accurate to a degree, it seems a bit narrow focused. Sure, some people/dealers do price like that...many do not. I don't price things much different whether I am advertising online or posting prices on my table. I usually know what I want for any given animal, and that doesn't change just because the person is standing in front of me with cash. Please keep in mind that I'm not talking about $5000 animals, here. When I decided to do more breeding, I decided to work with primarily with animals I could sell for $100-$400, because $500-$1000 animals is a totally different market. People are trying to beat me for half price on $100 snakes...heck, they're probably worse for the $100 and under animals than they are for the $400 stuff. Ever have a person on the opposite end of the country offer you $50 or 60 SHIPPED for a $100 snake? Or, when you are practically giving the animal away for the cost of shipping, people people still want it for less - I've gotten offers that would have left me $20 or more in the hole.
No thanks - I'll keep them.
Luckily, I have enough sense not to breed the same stuff the next season when I am still sitting on a bunch of babies

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

When I decided to do more breeding, I decided to work with primarily with animals I could sell for $100-$400, because $500-$1000 animals is a totally different market.


Luckily, I have enough sense not to breed the same stuff the next season when I am still sitting on a bunch of babies

I think this is a good way to do things. If you focus on a specific area that you want to work with, i think people would have more success at selling. I think the best advice anyone can give when people ask what they should breed is... "breed what you like the most, and stick with that" If ones goal is to sell, find out what has a pretty good market, and steady interest, and work with that, and just keep tabs on how things are going.

I personally want to have a good variety ( which is the main thing, i know i look for when i go to a show. I find myself looking for the hard to find, or the.. not so common. I dont look for ball pythons! )
So i dont really want to breed a whole lot of Ball Pythons... because there are going to be hundreds at the show, why waste the tablespace when most are probably going to be browsing right over them * i absolutely do for the most part!*? Unless theyre a morph of some kind. Im breeding the ball pythons, mostly for my own goals. I dont plan on making much money at them, or with them at all.

The caulker cays though, and the bullsnakes... maybe, and maybe some other different species sometime later down the road, i know id like to, maybe to cover supplies and food, not so much profit. or for, again, my own personal gratifaction ( sunbeams would rule, if i were to be successful with them) But again, im more keeping for my own interest, than anything else.

Besides that, im far more apt to share with my friends. Id certainly be happy with that too.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I think this is a good way to do things. If you focus on a specific area that you want to work with, i think people would have more success at selling. I think the best advice anyone can give when people ask what they should breed is... "breed what you like the most, and stick with that" If ones goal is to sell, find out what has a pretty good market, and steady interest, and work with that, and just keep tabs on how things are going.

I personally want to have a good variety ( which is the main thing, i know i look for when i go to a show. I find myself looking for the hard to find, or the.. not so common. I dont look for ball pythons! )
So i dont really want to breed a whole lot of Ball Pythons... because there are going to be hundreds at the show, why waste the tablespace when most are probably going to be browsing right over them * i absolutely do for the most part!*? Unless theyre a morph of some kind. Im breeding the ball pythons, mostly for my own goals. I dont plan on making much money at them, or with them at all.

The caulker cays though, and the bullsnakes... maybe, and maybe some other different species sometime later down the road, i know id like to, maybe to cover supplies and food, not so much profit. or for, again, my own personal gratifaction ( sunbeams would rule, if i were to be successful with them) But again, im more keeping for my own interest, than anything else.

Besides that, im far more apt to share with my friends. Id certainly be happy with that too.

I am just a small time operation. The only person I can get to show up to work is me, myself, and I and I already have another full time job.

With that being said... I try to focus on what I think will sell in 3 years... this is just a guessing game. What may be hot this year... may not 3 years down the when the babies finally grow up.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think the best advice anyone can give when people ask what they should breed is... "breed what you like the most, and stick with that"

This is what I did with my Leopard Geckos. I saw the Leo market starting to tank with the Macks a few years ago and made the decision to just keep what I liked the most and not worry about what the newest trend was. I adore my small, select group of Leos and am very happy with my decision.