New price order?

[The BoidSmith]

This is what I call a very good discussion!

 

[hhmoore]

Donna,
I agree with parts of your statement...and I think parts of it are naive, at best. The reality is that, yes, you can hold onto the babies...but (with BPs, in particular) you won't get more for them as yearlings. That means you are housing, feeding, and caring for them for free.
Let me give you an example: back in 06, I bought a few spiders at about $1000 each. One of the females turned out to be the oddball that was a sporadic feeder, and won't be ready to breed for another year (or two? ). The other two are plenty big enough to breed, and I plan on doing so this year...much as I would almost prefer to get out of balls entirely (I think everybody knows I'm not a big fan). IF I could sell my pastels and spiders without taking a loss, I would in a heartbeat...but, the reality is that I'm going to have to breed them a few times before I can consider it.
Sure, I could breed the male to a couple of the normal females I have sitting around - which are still here because I won't give them away - but then I would just have a bunch of babies that aren't worth crap that I would have to feed & try to get rid of (OK, in all fairness, if I LIKED BPs, that wouldn't be such a chore, lol...but I don't, so I'm not going to put myself through that. Even if I did, it would still take a couple seasons to make back what I invested in those 3 spiders).

I also don't really see it as a self limiting issue - unless there there is a mass exodus of BP breeders, along with a freeze on incoming enthusiasts getting involved. Every year, more and more people are getting involved in breeding...and producing animals they haven't really considered how they are going to get rid of (you'd be surprised how many new breeders never contemplate NOT being able to sell the babies). I can point toward any number of people that have kept snakes for a year or two, that have at least 10 BP females they plan to breed this year.
BPs are so heavily produced that we could cut off importation of WC and CH, and not really even feel the loss...heck, from a market perspective, it's probably a pretty good idea (except it would kill everybody's dream of snagging their own morph).

You're right...there is a market, and they will sell. IF you have something unusual, or are willing to drop prices til they do. (I focused on BPs for the majority of this post; but most of what was said can easily be generalized, with minimal changes)

 

[Seamus Haley]

I wish more people would do what you did. The leopard gecko market is WAY super-saturated right now and there are too many being produced. I don't keep up with the ball python market these days, but I do know that it is extremely difficult to sell leopard geckos right now. Part of it is that too many people are breeding them, and also a couple of the "bigger" breeders are WAY overproducing the morphs, therefore causing major price drops. The other part of it is most definitely the economy IMO. The Europeans still buy. I know one other US. breeder that has not had a domestic leo sale since May.

If the biggest breeders are able to sell every animal they hatched and you aren't... which one of you "overproduced"?

I know that you, for example, go after a slightly different customer than an industrial style breeder does Kelli. Aiming at a niche market of selective customers who are willing to pay a little more for a higher quality animal. There's some overlap between their customer base (or the customer base of their customer base since the biggest breeders *largely* sell to retailers and jobbers) and yours though, since there are also people who would sometimes select price over certain differences in quality.

That said though, if the biggest breeders are able to sell all the animals they want to at a price that makes them a profit during a time when a smaller more selective breeder is not... which of those individuals is using an unsuccessful business model?

I think my earlier posts made it pretty clear that I genuinely miss the idea that widespread care and attention would be put into producing the best possible offspring from every pairing. I can't fault the business model of the people who produce and sell massive quantities though, nor can I justify attaching any kind of negative stigma to them just because their production numbers dramatically changed the whole supply and demand equation by inflating the supply side. If they are running a profitable business during a time when a smaller niche breeder is not, then it's the unsuccessful individual who needs to look at their profit margins, pricing scheme, advertising approach and overall capability to profit by doing what they want to do... throwing blame for difficulties or failures at the feet of someone who has managed to look at the market and the industry and be successful isn't really logical.

I see a lot of parallels to the tropical fish industry in the reptile industry, always have... And the thing is that when you breed guppies... even high end brand spanking new super high quality guppies (ohyes, they do exist) with a large price tag attached... you need to understand the overall guppy market and model your business accordingly. It's not appropriate to blame Seagrest farms for producing forty million of your cutting edge morph a year after you introduced it, or the resulting price drop as they appear in every petco and petsmart in the world (at twenty percent off if you have your PALS card no less). Those breeders have to spend their time constantly improving their stock, refining the trait to it's pinnacle or working on the next new thing, they can't sit on their laurels while thousands of people who have never bred a fish before in their life begin reproducing that trait which distinguished the trait as formerly high end.

 

[KelliH]

If the biggest breeders are able to sell every animal they hatched and you aren't... which one of you "overproduced"?

No no... I didn't say I am not selling. I was referring to the leo market in general.

Those breeders have to spend their time constantly improving their stock, refining the trait to it's pinnacle or working on the next new thing, they can't sit on their laurels while thousands of people who have never bred a fish before in their life begin reproducing that trait which distinguished the trait as formerly high end.

Agree 100% and this is why I am able to keep going year after year, and will continue to breed leopard geckos, which are my passion. I really like what you have said about widespread attention and care, and I agree. The supply/demand/overproduction "thing" has happened before. What usually ends up happening is that you will see a large number of aspiring leopard gecko breeders having a "Collection Sale" and getting out of it because they are frustrated. It's not easy to sell leopard geckos unless you have something really unique or unusual, or a brand new morph, and/or are a very well known breeder. I actually tell/warn my customers about this. Sometimes I think I am not the best salesperson but they always buy anyway.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think if people are dropping $500-1000 on mutts (poma-poo, labra-doodle, etc), their are going to be people out there wanting to put that sort of money into a reptile.

I wish more people would do what you did. The leopard gecko market is WAY super-saturated right now and there are too many being produced. I don't keep up with the ball python market these days, but I do know that it is extremely difficult to sell leopard geckos right now. Part of it is that too many people are breeding them, and also a couple of the "bigger" breeders are WAY overproducing the morphs, therefore causing major price drops. The other part of it is most definitely the economy IMO. The Europeans still buy. I know one other US. breeder that has not had a domestic leo sale since May.

Want's funny, Kelli...Half of what I actually kept were my last Leo purchases I've made...And they were from you!

 

[Seamus Haley]

No no... I didn't say I am not selling. I was referring to the leo market in general.

Sorry about the confusion, most of those "you"s were "you who are reading this" not "You Kelli"s

Agree 100% and this is why I am able to keep going year after year, and will continue to breed leopard geckos, which are my passion. I really like what you have said about widespread attention and care, and I agree. The supply/demand/overproduction "thing" has happened before. What usually ends up happening is that you will see a large number of aspiring leopard gecko breeders having a "Collection Sale" and getting out of it because they are frustrated. It's not easy to sell leopard geckos unless you have something really unique or unusual, or a brand new morph, and/or are a very well known breeder. I actually tell/warn my customers about this. Sometimes I think I am not the best salesperson but they always buy anyway.

I have a bit more of an issue with those people who find themselves unable to move what they produced than the industry trend setters that can dictate prices on more common species/traits.

Both of these groups tend to produce offspring using the first male avaliable first female avaliable, GO! approach that I don't care for as a personal matter... But the giants know what they are doing when they do it. There are buyers lined up, they have run all the numbers and know what kind of efficiency and profit they are getting as a return on their time and investment and, ultimately, the majority of the animals they produce will be sold to people who will not be breeding them or contributing to the overall captive gene pool. It's the approach from the people who end up perpetually unable to move their stock because they didn't comprehend that they would be competing against those wholesale goliaths who often end up using the animals they couldn't sell as future breeding stock, only compounding their problem.

I've notoriously got very limited patience with people who are naive and not actively seeking to change that though. My intolerance for ignorance probably makes me judge (and condemn) those people who blunder into producing junk more harshly than those who simply choose to produce baseline, midgrade stock as a result of an educated and informed business plan.

 

[KelliH]

I gotcha. I am still selling geckos but it has slowed down a lot when compared to a year ago or two years ago. It's mostly the cause of a recurring cycle that happens every few years, but I do think that this time around the economy is playing a bigger role in it than in previous years.

I agree with most of your points, Seamus. Many of the people that decide to start breeding leopard geckos are young and this is probably the first reptile they have ever reproduced. They get caught up in the excitement of it and some spend a good amount of money on their breeding stock. Some quickly get discouraged when they realize that 1.) it is not as easy as they thought it would be to move their offspring and 2.) it is very expensive and very time consuming to properly care for a medium to large collection of geckos.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me as if the reptile market in general has been rather slow as of late. Not just with leos, but everything. I see it as a supply/demand issue as well as an economic one. Those of us that have been doing this seriously for awhile have seen these up and down trends many times, and I have no fear that things won't get better. I just wonder how long it will take!

 

[WingedWolf]

Donna,
I agree with parts of your statement...and I think parts of it are naive, at best. The reality is that, yes, you can hold onto the babies...but (with BPs, in particular) you won't get more for them as yearlings. That means you are housing, feeding, and caring for them for free.
Let me give you an example: back in 06, I bought a few spiders at about $1000 each. One of the females turned out to be the oddball that was a sporadic feeder, and won't be ready to breed for another year (or two? ). The other two are plenty big enough to breed, and I plan on doing so this year...much as I would almost prefer to get out of balls entirely (I think everybody knows I'm not a big fan). IF I could sell my pastels and spiders without taking a loss, I would in a heartbeat...but, the reality is that I'm going to have to breed them a few times before I can consider it.

Of course--there's a big difference between buying an animal and then having to turn around and sell it, though, and producing some yourself. I can't think of a single animal in my collection I wouldn't take a loss on if I tried to resell it as a yearling, just due to food costs. It's also true that some co-doms are dropping so fast that the difference in price each year means that a hatchling's cost one year will be a yearling's cost the next--but that isn't true so much with the recessives. Usually you can at least get the market hatchling rate plus the cost of the food it ate, for a yearling. For females, sometimes more.

A hatchling pastel female right now is worth 180 to 250. A breeding sized female is worth 1000. Now, even in 3 years, a breeding-sized pastel is going to be worth more than 250, because that's the basic price for a normal breeder female. The cost of normals hasn't changed that much over time, and that caps off what you would expect to lose on the low end of the market.

Ball pythons remain fantastic pet snakes--in spite of the massive quantities being shipped in out of Africa, there's still a demand for normal balls just as pets. Although I've seen some folks complaining about having problems moving normals, I didn't experience that problem this year myself--in fact, they've moved as fast or faster than my pastels.

When I bought a pair of normals over 10 years ago, they were $25 apiece from a reptile show. And you can still buy normal hatchlings for exactly the same price today. That's what I've been selling mine for.

The stability at the bottom of the market is the reason why I don't see huge problems. The way I see it, if you can eventually make back what you paid for the snake plus some, and it pays for its own food and supplies every year, then it's profitable to breed. "Just normals" will bring in just enough money to care for them over the course of a year. Once they get older and lay larger clutches, then even they start to make a profit.

If you threw your male spiders with a couple of normal females, you would wind up with about $1200 in spiders, and $150 in normals. It might take you a few years at that rate, with prices dropping, but you'll still make back your investment in the spiders--easily. I understand you don't like them, and I think that's what makes the big difference. Spiders still have a few years left before they get down into the price range of normals--pastels probably have 2 years, maybe--because I think it will slow as they actually approach the price of normals. Ironically, when they do, demand for inexpensive spiders is probably going to spike, because unlike pastels, I think they'll do well on the pet market, in pet stores. (A shop owner here informed me that the pet-buying public isn't really willing to pay more for a snake unless it's dramatically different, because they don't know a pastel from a normal anyhow--they just want a nice pet. He had a pastel up in his store for ages, and sold dozens of normals, and couldn't move the pastel. Put pastels down into the same price range, and they'll sell then as pets).

I picked ball pythons for reasons other than pure $$. I really like the snakes, always have--I could have picked boas, but I don't like boas much. lol
I set out to breed snakes, yes, to make money--after having kept reptiles for decades, and having done leos for a year or two, I had the opportunity to invest in it, and I've been completely happy with the decision. It's basically my 'dream job'. Coming in at the ground level, this season is going to be the first one we're really going to see a decent return, and it will be at least one more after that before we're in the black.

I may be naive, but so far my luck has been fantastic. (Example, my biggest female layed 13 eggs, and we hatched 11 pastels and 2 normals from them...lol).

It may take some bad luck to knock the rest of the naivete out of me, but I have been paying attention, and I just don't think things are as bad as some folks are saying they are.

Maybe my expectations are a bit more conservative, though? The numbers we've been crunching look pretty good to me.

Now, I wasn't saying you should stubbornly refuse to lower prices when the bulk of the market drops--that's not it at all. I'm just saying that you shouldn't be selling a snake that sells (not just is priced at, but sells) for $200---for only $100 because you're in a hurry. Nor should you take the lowest prices you see to be where the market's really at currently. People will buy animals in the middle of the price range even when the really cheap ones are available, in my (admittedly limited) experience. They'll do it because they like the look of the animals you have for sale. There are things more important than the price tag.

That doesn't mean you can sell a pastel female for $500 right now, unless you happen to be NERD or Graziani. But if you ask $250 because the animal is exceptional, you will get it--you might have to wait around for a few months, but you'll get it. And hey, even she ate $8 worth of food in that time, you still did pretty good.

I still maintain that with a lot of morphs, the price doesn't drop so fast that a 3 year old is worth less than it was as a hatchling. You may eat the price of feeding it, but on a HIGH end snake, that few hundred dollars is no big deal. Obviously males are a lot less predictable, but that's what I'm seeing, overall.

 

[Renshai]

Getting in kind of late on this one...BUT...here's my opinion.....In regards to pricing, of course the pricing can only be what the market will bear. That being said, in ANY "economic downturn" or whatever you would like to call it, the people who are buying truly high-end, expensive, rare, and unique items will still buy them, regardless of the economy. They remain relatively insulated as far as disposible income is concerned. This remains true for reptiles as well as nearly any other industry ( I was in mid-fi sales for a long time and have now gone to esoteric level stuff...the market is stronger) THe people shopping for 5-50K reptiles will be shopping for 5-50K reptiles regardless of the economy, for whatever motivational reason they possess. The truly injured in this economy are the Mid-grade hobbyist or breeder. The animals that are sitting in the $250-$2500 range are suffering the most decline. The really inexpensive remain strong and the Upper range remains strong. All the fluctuation is always in the middle. But aw %^& it, who wants pie?

 

[BryonsBoas]

This brings me to the topic of "price elasticity". In lower priced reptiles there is very little elasticity. This is particularly true with internet sales where shipping prices puts a fixed and heavy burden on individual snakes (multiple snakes can be shipped in one box thus diluting fixed costs). With higher priced snakes we have greater elasticity. Who can deny that $2,500 for a snake is still a good chunk of money? How many people would like to receive just that as a monthly salary? But there's another factor that comes into play, and it's your perceived value of your merchandise, and the need you may have for the money at a particular point in time. For a snake valued at 40 k there's even greater elasticity, and it wouldn't be unheard of for a person accepting an offer of 20 k.

Best

I haven't worked since June 12, 07 due to ripped up knees from an " on the job injury " that my boss was kind enough to fire me for. On top of that , he increased the company profit margin by NOT having mandatory Workman's Comp Insurance. I haven't received a dime from my boss since and I'm still wrapped up in a Workman's Comp suit against him and know that by the time it hits the court room the company may have already been put under. Even if its still viable I know I likely won't see a dime since the state fines will kill the company by themselves.

With that said , I normally don't talk about it because I don't want anyone thinking I can be lowballed on my prices because I'm desperate. Food is still on the table , roof over my head and I'm in no way so desperate that I gotta dump prices to put a few bucks in my pocket.

From what we produced this past season the Blood Boa ( $5k ) is the last up for sale and I'm just as happy to pull her and keep her. Even when I was working I had child support for 2 kids coming out , taxes , weekly gas money , weekly food money , bill money etc. but I found a way to buy what I wanted.

Elasticity on my prices is there but depending on the animal , the elastic may not stretch as far as it would on a 5 year old pair of undies. The elastic really doesn't stretch that far on the higher quality animals we produce. If its an outstanding animal , the price will reflect that and the amount of leeway as to what I would accept on it will not be as much as it would be on an animal in the B range. If they want it , they get the offer in the area that I will accept or I wait until someone who does comes along. I never kidded myself that I could sell every animal for exact asking price in 3 months or less. I built into my production the means to sit on a higher priced animal until I got either what I wanted for it or I was tired of seeing it and was willing to drop a few bucks on the price.

I'm opting to have a wait and see approach on how the economy pans out. As it stands , I pretty much got what exactly what I wanted out of what was produced this year and have no complaints. If my $5k snake sells , it sells and I make more this coming season and hold back from that. If she don't , I won't be a year behind on the project I want her for.

As for price dumpers selling all their animals ....
I'm seeing the same animals up for sale week after week that have been dramatically slashed in price. I'm net seeing them moving all that fast if at all. I think folks are holding out for a deal but not so good it devalues anything drastically.

 

[hhmoore]

I know there are a few posts I haven't gotten to, but I'm only here for a minute and I want to toss this back out.

A breeding sized female is worth 1000. Now, even in 3 years, a breeding-sized pastel is going to be worth more than 250, because that's the basic price for a normal breeder female. The cost of normals hasn't changed that much over time, and that caps off what you would expect to lose on the low end of the market.

Two things: 1) think about what the cost of a female pastel hatchling was in 05, and 2) $250 isn't the base price of a normal breeder female...if it was, I wouldn't be sitting on a handful that I couldn't move @ $150. Check the classifieds - people are dumping them. Since I stopped advertising mine, I have seen 04s and 05s listed anywhere from $50-125... I'll hand them out in the park before practically giving them to somebody else to breed.
Nah, skip the shipping, I'll just eat them here.

 

[hhmoore]

Also, I DO understand that if I was of a different mindset, I could breed a spider and mojave male to 3-4 females each...and that the resultant offspring would have some value. I just don't have any real desire to produce BPs. At one point, I was infatuated with bumblebees, which is why I have spiders and pastels...and I will still probably do a couple of pastel x spider pairings this year. I don't dislike spiders, but I will probably get a few in the planned breedings, so there is no reason for me to breed that spider male to normal females to get MORE spiders and MORE normals. (Please keep in mind that I never had any plans of breeding that group of normal females, nor did I plan on keeping them once I got stuck with them - I was just lazy and didn't advertise them).

 

[WingedWolf]

Of course, pastels were worth a ton several years back...they drop every year just like other co-doms. But at the price they are now, that drop is slowing to a crawl.

The fact that you can't move your normal females at $150 (assuming they're 1500 gram breeders) probably has to do more with the slowness of the market than with an actual lack of sales. Just as an example, I need two more females before the end of the season, and we're planning to pay up to 300 apiece for them, because we want giant females who lay giant clutches, rather than smaller ones that will lay 4 to 6 eggs. I'm not buying them right now, because I don't have the money yet. I WILL...I just don't have it at the moment. I don't think you're going to have them forever--people are shopping for normal females, it just may take them longer than usual this year.

Consider that the slowness of the market means it's taking others longer to sell THEIR animals, and that's the money that they need to pay for your females--you're going to be selling those to breeders, not to people looking for pets, after all. They're still going to want those females.

It's easier to justify hanging on to a 10 grand animal for as long as it takes to sell it, because the feed cost for it is a drop in the bucket. But then, you can't say you can't make back what you invested into the spiders and pastels just because you don't want to produce BPs. I fully understand why you're just waiting so that you can make some bumblebees and be done with it...but for that, you're just doing it because you want some bees, and not to make money, because by the time you're making bees, bees will have dropped a lot too.

 

[hhmoore]

Of course, pastels were worth a ton several years back...they drop every year just like other co-doms. But at the price they are now, that drop is slowing to a crawl.

Of course the drop is slowing to a crawl...there isn't much further they can go. They have been mass produced, without concern for the quality of the end product, which has led to the production of a whole lot of butt ugly pastels. I still hope that one day people will come to their senses and, as Seamus suggested, think not about whether they can breed something - but whether they SHOULD. I do recognize much of what made BPs popular, even if I didn't fall for the hype (thankfully, that whole phenomena occured during my dormant period...when I hit the first show of my return, I was amazed). I've anticipated, and still hope the day will come, when there is will be a different price scheme in effect for pastels...where selective breeding will once again pay off, and people will realize the difference between breeding stock and "pet quality"

The fact that you can't move your normal females at $150 (assuming they're 1500 gram breeders) probably has to do more with the slowness of the market than with an actual lack of sales. Just as an example, I need two more females before the end of the season, and we're planning to pay up to 300 apiece for them, because we want giant females who lay giant clutches, rather than smaller ones that will lay 4 to 6 eggs. I'm not buying them right now, because I don't have the money yet. I WILL...I just don't have it at the moment. I don't think you're going to have them forever--people are shopping for normal females, it just may take them longer than usual this year.

Consider that the slowness of the market means it's taking others longer to sell THEIR animals, and that's the money that they need to pay for your females--you're going to be selling those to breeders, not to people looking for pets, after all. They're still going to want those females.

Oh, I know people are looking for them...they just don't seem to want to pay for them, lol. I've had numerous inquiries, most of which ended up with some statement to the effect of I really want them, I just don't have the money. Now, with that statement in mind, think back to what I described earlier regarding my salesmanship. After 3-5 of those responses, I was grumbling about people wasting my time, and why the hell don't they know they don't have any money before they email back and forth for 3 days (and I understand that SOMETIMES, there are unexpected circumstances - those don't bother me...in fact, I can empathize). Once I was at 10-12, I was done. I pulled the ads...and when people contacted me asking if they were still available, I told them no. I calmed, and went through the drill with a few more people - only to experience more of the same. Screw it, those girls are staying for now. Maybe I'll trade them off for something at a show, maybe I'll advertise them as free to a good home locally, maybe I WILL eat them. At this point, I'm not even thinking about it...the rack is already here, they're already in it, and they don't take all that much extra time (besides, I've had them for 3 yrs...they're pets now, not ball pythons)

But then, you can't say you can't make back what you invested into the spiders and pastels just because you don't want to produce BPs

I acknowledged that, over several seasons, I COULD make back that investment. The point was that, even as adults, they aren't worth what I paid for them as babies 3 yrs ago; and that I'm not going to fall into breeding things just for the sake of the money. (I think...who knows, I was pretty busy/distracted when I posted those) I accepted that, in the course of making bees, I would produce normals, pastels, and spiders. I started with good pastels and spiders, because I am a proponent of selective breeding...that doesn't justify me producing extras just because I have those normal females available. Sure, a lot of people do. If I had a strong interest in BPs, I probably would, too. Under the circumstances, though, it doesn't make sense.

You're right, the bees were for me, because I wanted to. The price of bees has dropped significantly already (and, yes, I'm very disheartened by the ugly bees I have seen ).

 

[BryonsBoas]

Selective breeding and responsible breeding seem to be old hat now a days. When I got my pastel BP , males were $1k , females $2k and sold like hotcakes by the thousands. Because they LOOKED like pastels then. Without selective breeding the quality goes down quickly and the price will follow. I can't expect anyone to pay $1k for a pastel that hatched turd brown. I can't see paying $100 for a turd brown pastel now either.

I'll spend my money with someone who selectively breeds over mass production. From what I am seeing the $$$ signs overrode any possibility for some folks to take a few minutes to read up on the morph's attributes and spend some extra time & care to pick the best mates for it. Its really evident selective breeding took a back seat by most if you think about how many folks bought CH buy the hundreds to raise up as breed stock for co-dom projects.

Boas take the same hits as well. When pastels REALLY hit the scene , you couldn't find a normal boa in an ad to save your life. Everything just had to be a pastel since pastels were worth more. Add in a few really cool co-doms and away it went. Arabesques and Motleys were bred to anything with a pulse in mass numbers and now finding a good Arab that typifies the original look is near impossible.

All of this has taken its toll. When folks produce far more than they can handle just because the big boys do, then the market takes a hit. They never stop to think that the big boys have overseas markets. When the hobby breeder dumps his 10 Mot litters on the US ads ( multiply hobby breeders by 100 , 1000 etc ) , the big boys have other means to move stock and really don't feel the pinch in the same way we do.

Its easy to say you can sell $100 snakes faster than a $1000 snake but as a hobby breeder or small operation , we don't produce enough $100 snakes to keep us as viable financially as a larger operation can.

I've seen folks who are quite ready to spend a little extra $$$ for a very nice quality animal that will be selectively bred. I've seen others that don't care how the animal looks as long as its genetic and the price is as close to wholesale as they can get. Others still have no clue either way and pretty much stay in the middle. If they can get a deal on a nice animal , great , if not someone has something close if they even know enough about how the mutation works to have an idea of what to look for.

Add this up and there is plenty of room for varying prices across the board.

I've anticipated, and still hope the day will come, when there is will be a different price scheme in effect for pastels...where selective breeding will once again pay off, and people will realize the difference between breeding stock and "pet quality"

A few breeders do this to some extent. The animals are graded by quality and the price reflects where that animal sits on their scale. This is a model we've opted to adopt to price our animals. The better looking ones being priced higher with less wiggle room compared to lower grades. I find this style of pricing effective , especially if the breeder is working with good stock to start, which produces the better looking babies across the board while offering prices in a variety of ranges that customers can use to fit good stock within their budget.

My better half scans the ads more than I do but we both have taken to looking at the breeders who have been long term in the hobby / industry to build the business model we choose to use. I feel by following what those individuals , who have seen good times and bad more than once , have done to succeed then I can't go too wrong as long as I keep an open mind when I really feel the need to be flexible.

Too many folks are in a panic right now. I think if this lasts long enough , the diehards will remain while the faint of heart fall to the wayside. I think the staying power to keep the market viable isn't cutting 50% or more off of the price but holding steady to realistic drops in price. Once those cuts are made , there is no going back when the economy gets better.

 

[WingedWolf]

I agree completely, and hope that the majority of the breeders out there do as well. It would be a shame for everyone to drop prices insanely, and then have the market recover in 2 years...and there you are.

I like to buy the best animal I can afford...which will hopefully be a much nicer one next year than it was this year...and so on. What sort of look you go for in a morph has to also depend on what you mix it with, though. High yellow pastels are, _I_ think, prettier than the ones that brown out. But what if you're mixing it with a cinnie? Or a burgundy? Etc. There may be a purpose served in having a low yellow pastel. You have to experiment to find out what different looks you can produce.

It's also tough to selectively breed co-dom morphs for things when you are crossing them to normal females. You can pick a female that's a good match, but in reality you just have to wait and see to find out how the babies will turn out. It may take 12 years for you to even make a dent in developing a high gold or light tan, or high yellow line of normals to improve morph lines. You can't always just breed morphs to morphs, either, that makes it awfully hard to see what's going on. NERD's got high yellow line normals--it must have taken them ages to develop them.
Take the best, brightest lemon pastel NERD has and breed it to a drab female, and you're going to get 'ok' lemon pastels. I've found it hard to select breeder females with some of the attitude in the market. "Pictures aren't available, they're just normals". >.<

I've seen things marketed as 'lemon pastels' that just plain aren't, anymore.

The 'morph morph morph' attitude is understandable, but compared with, say, leopard geckos, ball python breeding is WAY behind when it comes to selective breeding for various traits. There's a huge area there waiting to be filled. It'll take a really long time to do it, but once you have a selective bred line, you've got something tremendously valuable.

Envision a line of ball pythons that consistantly throw super high yellow reduced pattern females that grow large and lay 10+ egg clutches in 5 years.
How much would that be worth to you? "Just a normal". Right. lol

Morphs will continue to come and go...I wonder if there will ever be a slow-down in finding new ones? There are enough crosses to keep people entertained for decades. Which is another reason why I'm not worried about price drop-outs.

 

[The BoidSmith]

In my opinion ball pythons are overpriced (bear with me I'm into ball pythons). But it's not me that dictates that, it's the market. If an animal posted in a heavy traffic web site is up for sale for weeks with no takers, then you are priced off the market. You can wait with the animal until a "new generation" of reptile keepers is born (joke) or you can accept a lower offer in your animal. This flexibility will be different for different individuals. Some can subsidize their hobby/business with external income and can thus wait longer for an animal to sell at a given price; some cannot. My perception is that the longer an animal is out there at the same price the chances for it to sell decrease constantly. Or in Einstein's words: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. ;

Best!

 

[Seamus Haley]

Take the best, brightest lemon pastel NERD has and breed it to a drab female, and you're going to get 'ok' lemon pastels. I've found it hard to select breeder females with some of the attitude in the market. "Pictures aren't available, they're just normals". >.<

I've seen things marketed as 'lemon pastels' that just plain aren't, anymore.

No such f#$%in' morph.

 

[shrap]

Dan,

I hate to say it but you sound like a disgruntled buyer that thought they were going to be able to take advantage of a poor economy to get high end animals for cheap. When your plan to take advantage of breeders in distress didnt pan out like you hoped, you decide to blame the market for not being able to get that animal you feel you are entitled to at the price you felt you were entitled to get it at. Not trying to be insulting to you in the least, just saying what it looks like to a degree.

Simple supply and demand and competition will dictate prices. Look at Pastels, Albinos, Spiders, etc, etc, etc, etc, that have taken really big nose dives over the last couple of years. Supply overtook demand and you had countless different breeders producing them, so the prices came down. And the same is happening to all the other base morphs and many of the more dated designer morphs.

If you are trying to get in on a morph/designer morph that supply is still limited on, you are going to pay a premium. That is just basic economics. Remember when CD players first came out? DVD players? The cost was outrageous. $800-$1000. 5 years later they were literally under $100 because supply caught up with demand and many different companies were producing them which created competition. So if you want that limited supply item you are going to pay a premium for it. Or you can wait until that item is no longer in limited supply and pay a lower price.

Just my two cents on it.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Agree 100% and this is why I am able to keep going year after year, and will continue to breed leopard geckos, which are my passion. I really like what you have said about widespread attention and care, and I agree. The supply/demand/overproduction "thing" has happened before. What usually ends up happening is that you will see a large number of aspiring leopard gecko breeders having a "Collection Sale" and getting out of it because they are frustrated. It's not easy to sell leopard geckos unless you have something really unique or unusual, or a brand new morph, and/or are a very well known breeder. I actually tell/warn my customers about this. Sometimes I think I am not the best salesperson but they always buy anyway.

And then there is the flip side of that coin. Trying to find a simple patternless male or blizzard male to finish off some of my projects is like pulling teeth. The biggest "new thing" on the market has over shadowed the pure joy of being able to keep these special creatures. Seems that so many jumped in head first with out realizing the cost of feeding and housing. Because we breed our worms and feeder rodents, my supply is readily available and is not an issue.

I am more into my lizards then the high end collection of boas that I brought across the country when I moved here. My lizards know me and respond to me. The pip of the baby after years of hard work is more exciting to me than the prospect of selling them. For that single moment, I don't feel like I have wasted my time.

The animals that Bryon and I produce also gives us trading power to get the crriters that we covet. We maybe be BnL Exotix, but we are very different from our keeping styles and what we really love.

The passion for the boa's that I brought across the counrty is still very intense. When I purchased them I did so out of the love of the breed not the money or greed. I love the motley boa, it is my favorite morph and I payed a good chunk of change for them 2 years ago. Same thing with my Sabogaes. I went straight to the breeder for them. And the same with my hpyo 100% het blood boas.

And in the spring all of our efforts will not be wasted but worth it when I see those beautiful babies. At then end of the season, it will be a labor of love and not greed that keeps me motivated to improve on selective breeding and what worked and what didn't.