New price order?

[shrap]

The pip of the baby after years of hard work is more exciting to me than the prospect of selling them.

The prospect of selling them is hands down the part of this I dislike the most. I literally dont like thinking about it until I have to. To this day every baby my critters produce pulls at a heart string when I am boxing them up. I hate them leaving home.

About ten years ago I let my pure bred Russian Blue cat be bred by someone else's pure Russian Blue and we split the litter. My cat was the female of course. So by the time the kittens were weaned I was too attached to let any of my half be sold. So we went from 1 cat to 4.... and immediately to the vet to get them all fixed!!

 

[The BoidSmith]

Dan,

I hate to say it but you sound like a disgruntled buyer that thought they were going to be able to take advantage of a poor economy to get high end animals for cheap. When your plan to take advantage of breeders in distress didnt pan out like you hoped, you decide to blame the market for not being able to get that animal you feel you are entitled to at the price you felt you were entitled to get it at. Not trying to be insulting to you in the least, just saying what it looks like to a degree.

Simple supply and demand and competition will dictate prices. Look at Pastels, Albinos, Spiders, etc, etc, etc, etc, that have taken really big nose dives over the last couple of years. Supply overtook demand and you had countless different breeders producing them, so the prices came down. And the same is happening to all the other base morphs and many of the more dated designer morphs.

If you are trying to get in on a morph/designer morph that supply is still limited on, you are going to pay a premium. That is just basic economics. Remember when CD players first came out? DVD players? The cost was outrageous. $800-$1000. 5 years later they were literally under $100 because supply caught up with demand and many different companies were producing them which created competition. So if you want that limited supply item you are going to pay a premium for it. Or you can wait until that item is no longer in limited supply and pay a lower price.

Just my two cents on it.

It's just an opinion and my perception on the industry right now. What I'm trying to understand is the thought process of buyer and sellers as I'm currently in the process of co-writing an assay in the topic.

Best

 

[KelliH]

And then there is the flip side of that coin. Trying to find a simple patternless male or blizzard male to finish off some of my projects is like pulling teeth. The biggest "new thing" on the market has over shadowed the pure joy of being able to keep these special creatures. Seems that so many jumped in head first with out realizing the cost of feeding and housing. Because we breed our worms and feeder rodents, my supply is readily available and is not an issue.

Dang girl, pm me I've got several Patty and Blizz males! The Blizzard has been for sale on my website for months, no interest. I still love the old school morphs and work with all of them. My favorites are Stripes and Blizzards.

 

[shrap]

It's just an opinion and my perception on the industry right now. What I'm trying to understand is the thought process of buyer and sellers as I'm currently in the process of co-writing an assay in the topic.

Best

Is it really any different than any other industry though? When the economy takes a long downturn like it is now, essentials always seem to go up in price while non essentials take a small dip in price. Not a large dip. If the economy rebounds quickly and you panic dropped during the downturn you are now stuck at those panic prices. It is always better as a seller to drop your prices slowly instead of taking a panic plunge. As a seller that is how I look at it.

This country really has not seen a truly prolonged recession since the 70's. The market place has changed so much since then that we are really are entering unknown territory as far as being able to predict how businesses will be able to adjust and withstand a prolonged recession. Hopefully we wont have to find out the hard way.

 

[WingedWolf]

In my opinion ball pythons are overpriced (bear with me I'm into ball pythons). But it's not me that dictates that, it's the market. If an animal posted in a heavy traffic web site is up for sale for weeks with no takers, then you are priced off the market. You can wait with the animal until a "new generation" of reptile keepers is born (joke) or you can accept a lower offer in your animal. This flexibility will be different for different individuals. Some can subsidize their hobby/business with external income and can thus wait longer for an animal to sell at a given price; some cannot. My perception is that the longer an animal is out there at the same price the chances for it to sell decrease constantly. Or in Einstein's words: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. ;

Best!

There's no such thing as 'overpriced' when it comes to...well, anything. Prices are what the market will bear. Something will sell for the highest amount that people will pay for it regularly.

How can one really tell if the reason an animal isn't selling at its current price is because it's too expensive...or just because no one who's looked at the ad so far actually wants it? You have to look at what others are pricing things at, and make your own judgement on that. Your problem might not be high prices--it might be that you're not advertising correctly.

And seriously--snake morphs, especially ball pythons and boas, are a big herpetocultural pyramid scheme with a mattress at the bottom called 'the pet trade'. I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that. Who buys morphs? MOSTLY other breeders--for ANY of them. What is an albino ball python worth to someone who's looking for a pet? Probably not much more than a normal. Same answer for ALL of the other morphs, whether they are currently worth 90 bucks or 20 grand. These snakes are worth so much money because they are worth money to breeders, who want to turn around and sell the offspring to make more money.

People who honestly have no expectation of making even a bit of extra cash from breeding are EXTREMELY rare. There's little other incentive to breed snakes--I mean, if you want a bumblebee, and you buy a pastel and a spider right now...why bother? You can just buy a bumblebee in three years for what you paid for the parent snakes.

It's not quite the same as breeding dogs...having a few snakes and breeding them to 'improve the breed' doesn't work very well, because there aren't enough questions about snake genetics worked out yet...nor any stable 'lineages' to purchase stock from. A really small collection isn't going to allow a person to do very much to create a new look through selection, particularly when there's 3 years between generations. The folks having the most success with creating a new look through selective breeding are those who have huge collections to pick animals from, who can afford to hold back a ton of 'maybes' and who are planning on doing this for a LONG time.

"Because it's fun to see what will hatch" is a valid reason--just not a very common one.

 

[Cat_72]

What is an albino ball python worth to someone who's looking for a pet? Probably not much more than a normal.

I see what you are saying here, but I do have to disagree somewhat. There will also always be that person who wants something "different" or "special" and has no interest in breeding it. There are still plenty of people who will pay $1500 for an English Bulldog...why should they when there are so many $50 Labs in the paper? Then there's the idiots who spend $2000 on a "goldendoodle" (or whatever the mutt of the day is), because it's new, or unusual, or not like what the Joneses down the street have. Does that make sense?

There's little other incentive to breed snakes--I mean, if you want a bumblebee, and you buy a pastel and a spider right now...why bother?

It IS possible that for some people, the snakes themselves ARE the incentive, that some people actually DO just enjoy having snakes, and hatching babies is the absolute, bestest most fun part of it.

 

[hhmoore]

I see what you are saying here, but I do have to disagree somewhat. There will also always be that person who wants something "different" or "special" and has no interest in breeding it.

I used to be "that guy"...to an extent, I still am. When I was doing a lot of exhibitions, I wanted a variety of interesting animals. I paid from $400-1500 for single specimens that I had no intention of breeding, simply because I liked them. Some of those animals never went on display, so I can't really argue that I wanted them for that purpose. (*I know that doesn't sound like a whole lot of money, but that was practically a different era)

It IS possible that for some people, the snakes themselves ARE the incentive, that some people actually DO just enjoy having snakes, and hatching babies is the absolute, bestest most fun part of it.

Yup. I mentioned earlier that I would probably be carrying 30+ babies into next season...the part I didn't say was that at least half of those are being held back for my own little projects. No, I don't plan on raising them all to adulthood, but I'm not letting them go until they are old enough and large enough to tell which are the best of the group (I've already got my choices picked, I just want to make sure I am right). This is a project for me - it's not going to be worth much of anything, financially. If the snakes weren't IT for me, I couldn't really get away with my sporadic advertising or deciding not to sell things because I don't feel like dealing with people.

 

[Seamus Haley]

It's not quite the same as breeding dogs...having a few snakes and breeding them to 'improve the breed' doesn't work very well, because there aren't enough questions about snake genetics worked out yet...nor any stable 'lineages' to purchase stock from. A really small collection isn't going to allow a person to do very much to create a new look through selection, particularly when there's 3 years between generations. The folks having the most success with creating a new look through selective breeding are those who have huge collections to pick animals from, who can afford to hold back a ton of 'maybes' and who are planning on doing this for a LONG time.

"Because it's fun to see what will hatch" is a valid reason--just not a very common one.

Having a few snakes and breeding them isn't the same as breeding dogs because... and this is the important part... snakes aren't dogs.

The rest of what you said is basically the exact ignorant crap that royally torks me off about many first time or small time breeders. Having a small number of animals doesn't prohibit an individual from selectively breeding- they chose the damn things to begin with and if they had half a brain they would use some method of selection beyond "first avaliable" They have the ability to PICK which animal gets paired with which other animal, removing all excuses for the propagation of overtly negative traits. Far more important than even that though, they have the ability to make a decision to simply not breed when they do not posess stock which should be mixed or when the pairing is likely to result in low grade animals, the very existance of which is detrimental to the overall captive gene pool. Everyone who produces an animal has the ability to decide not to breed crap to crap to produce crap squared.

If YOU have a problem selectively breeding, I have the following advice for you... Know the species and understand their traits before you select your breeding stock. Learn to cull. Take some goddamn responsibility for the resulting offspring.

 

[The BoidSmith]

There's no such thing as 'overpriced' when it comes to...well, anything. Prices are what the market will bear. Something will sell for the highest amount that people will pay for it regularly.

Your second statement implies the market or demand regulates prices. Thus overpriced exists and is when your price is not in line with what the market bears. Maybe an individual can use the leverage of his/her reputation to ask somehow more than the market price, but there’s a limit to that also. If I place an ad for a male baby pied ball python for $4,000 believe me, it will be there forever. A more real example there’s an individual that was part of the longest threads in the BOI that has had a snake for sale for over 6 months. Same ad, same picture, same snake; he not only did not sell her when it was priced at $500 but he raised it to $600 around a month ago. Needless to say he is overpriced and he doesn’t have the reputation leverage.

 

[Cat_72]

If the snakes weren't IT for me, I couldn't really get away with my sporadic advertising or deciding not to sell things because I don't feel like dealing with people.

I know exactly what you mean....scenario at my house:

Other half walks in while I'm watering or cleaning baby racks.

OH: Sell any more of those hatchlings?
Me: Uh, no.
OH: None?
Me: Um, not lately.
OH: Why?
Me: I suppose I should get around to putting ads up....
OH: You sell more when you actually put ads out. You can't keep them all.
Me: Yeah, I suppose I should put some up this weekend. (Not really listening, busy laughing at the baby trying to bite at me)

Repeat this every couple of weeks, and you get the picture. I suppose it's getting close to winter, I really SHOULD put some ads up to avoid shipping hassles when it gets too cold.....this weekend maybe.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Repeat this every couple of weeks, and you get the picture. I suppose it's getting close to winter, I really SHOULD put some ads up to avoid shipping hassles when it gets too cold.....this weekend maybe.

Should we send you daily reminders in your PM Box? LMAO

 

[Southern Wolf]

(busy laughing at the baby trying to bite at me)

This happens with me all to often... and it is normally followed by..... And you think your gonna do what.... eat me... I dont think so. Then I extend my finger to show im not skeert. The he tries to eat me

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Dang girl, pm me I've got several Patty and Blizz males! The Blizzard has been for sale on my website for months, no interest. I still love the old school morphs and work with all of them. My favorites are Stripes and Blizzards.

I'm soo embarrassed!!
I sent you and email and left you a phone message

 

[jayefbe]

Having a few snakes and breeding them isn't the same as breeding dogs because... and this is the important part... snakes aren't dogs.

The rest of what you said is basically the exact ignorant crap that royally torks me off about many first time or small time breeders. Having a small number of animals doesn't prohibit an individual from selectively breeding- they chose the damn things to begin with and if they had half a brain they would use some method of selection beyond "first avaliable" They have the ability to PICK which animal gets paired with which other animal, removing all excuses for the propagation of overtly negative traits. Far more important than even that though, they have the ability to make a decision to simply not breed when they do not posess stock which should be mixed or when the pairing is likely to result in low grade animals, the very existance of which is detrimental to the overall captive gene pool. Everyone who produces an animal has the ability to decide not to breed crap to crap to produce crap squared.

If YOU have a problem selectively breeding, I have the following advice for you... Know the species and understand their traits before you select your breeding stock. Learn to cull. Take some goddamn responsibility for the resulting offspring.

Seamus, this person clearly missed the boat when it comes to selective breeding.

 

[WingedWolf]

Jaye, and Seamus, are you saying there are lines of ball pythons out there which aren't closely related (inbreeding generally being a bad idea) and will throw consistant offspring right now?

I mean, like I said, I know NERD has developed some high yellow normals, and I'd like to get my hands on some of those, but as far as I can tell, most people breeding base morphs are breeding them to normals.

Often to CH or CBB normals with unknown lineages. Those normals may LOOK like a fantastic match, but you won't know what you have until the babies hatch. And those babies won't be any more consistant in what they're likely to throw than their mother was. It takes at least a few generations to get a 'look' to turn up CONSISTANTLY.

You can't just throw a great mojave with a nice light tan normal snake and expect all the babies to be pretty like your mojave. And keeping the prettiest of those snakes doesn't mean the next generation will all be pretty either, particularly if you don't pair them up with their dad.

It takes quite a while, and with a small collection, it's going to be VERY difficult to get a consistant look going without tons of inbreeding. You need to be working with at least 3 different lineages of the same 'look' you're going for, and then you have to hold back the offspring to be sure of what they look like as adults. You're going to need a lot of snakes if you do it right.

Selective breeding isn't just "I think I will select two pretty snakes and breed them together".

Yes, if a snake never sells and everyone else has the same kind of animal for a lower price, and they're selling, AND advertising in the same places--it's overpriced. No question about that.
But a snake isn't necessarily overpriced if you don't advertise it, if no one else is selling ANYTHING like it, or other snakes like it are selling for the same price.

 

[jayefbe]

Donna, I was saying there are good looking snakes that are better to be bred and there are others.

As far as my personal opinion when it comes to the ball market, if you're entering it expecting to make money you will more than likely be sorely disappointed. I know there are some out there that make decent and even very sizable sums of money, but in the end, it's a market that won't continue to support that trend. As others said before, breeders are selling to other breeders. There is no end consumer in this scenario and it's gotten to the point that the market is saturated with breeders basically trading their offspring with other breeders. Prices are dropping fairly rapidly, and will continue to do so at an increased rate. I also believe that the impact of the new morphs will be markedly lower than they were in the past. The first bumblebees and piebalds caused quite a stir, but now the new morphs are going to be just another face in the crowd.

As for the high priced animals (pastel axanthic piebald and other multi-morphs) who are the consumers? Generally it's the breeders buying the higher-priced morphs, but lately, I believe the vast majority are choosing to produce them on their own. Of course these are just my own opinions, and I have no idea whether the market for ball pythons will stay afloat or not.

 

[WingedWolf]

jaye--I actually disagree, and I think it will be around for a long time to come. Regardless, I'm in for the long haul.

This IS what I want to do with my life, and I expect to diversify over time and work with a LOT of other species eventually. I enjoy keeping snakes--I enjoy it enough to make it a business.

 

[jayefbe]

jaye--I actually disagree, and I think it will be around for a long time to come. Regardless, I'm in for the long haul.

This IS what I want to do with my life, and I expect to diversify over time and work with a LOT of other species eventually. I enjoy keeping snakes--I enjoy it enough to make it a business.

I guess you can call producing a handful of snakes a business, I'd personally call it a hobby. You're welcome to your opinion, but I'd like to know your reasoning behind it.

 

[WingedWolf]

A handful of snakes this year--my babies were all still growing up! Actually, we produced 26 hatchlings, from one male and 3 females. The male was an ordinary pastel--he has browned out more since we got him, but he's still handsome, and some of his babies aren't too bad. We probably won't be breeding him again, though. Next year I will be producing probably around 80 to 100 hatchlings. I would call that a bit more than handful, personally.

It will be around 200 the year after that...and 300 to 400 the year after that.

I call this a business because it is. I have registered it as a business, and I have a long-term plan for it as a business. Things are going extremely well thus far, and I'm quite optimistic.

 

[jayefbe]

Yeah, I'd call that a sizable amount of snakes in the near future, and best of luck with them.

I don't think the ball market is going to crash completely, I just don't see it going gangbusters the way it has. It seems as though a lot of breeders have entered just to breed balls or switched to balls to capitalize on the outrageous morph prices. I just don't see things continuing in the same vein. I'm guessing that it will begin to resemble the leopard gecko business in the near future where only the newest cost upwards of a few hundreds at the most, and I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I just don't think the "investment" level animals are going to turn as big a profit as some may believe.