New price order?

[KelliH]

I wouldn't have my females laying that many clutches, I feel it's too hard on them. One female would produce 3 or 4 pairs of eggs, and then I would adjust the temps and light, move the male, and shut them down for the season. I had one female try to keep on going, I had a heck of a time getting her to quit laying...she just wasn't responding to the lighting changes, and wound up laying 7 clutches. That female wound up doing poorly in the long run.

Hmm, maybe it was a husbandry thing or something about their diet/supplementation or something because while there may be the rare female leo that for whatever reason is just not a good breeder, that's not the case with most females. I do understand the point you are trying to make of course, but earlier you stated that leopard geckos do not produce as many offspring in a season as ball pythons do, and that's just not true in the case of serious and professional gecko breeders.

I love how people are getting on my case here for putting the welfare of the animals before fast/high quantity reproduction. It's like, 'selective breed so you don't make ugly animals...but it's ok to breed vast quantities of pretty animals no matter how hard it might be on the females!"

Who said anything about breeding vast quantities of animals and fast/high quantity reproduction?

 

[KelliH]

A butt-ugly pastel is just as much a living, breathing animal as a bright and beautiful one....but that certainly doesn't mean that butt-ugly snake should be bred to pass on those butt-ugly genetics. He would make a fine pet for someone...but some would insist on breeding it, just because they want babies. Isn't that greed as well?

Exactly! Well put.

 

[WingedWolf]

Actually, I AGREED with a person who said that leopard geckos produce about the same number of babies each season as ball pythons. Average being 6. My biggest female ball gave me 13 eggs. I did my best to be careful with my leos in their first and second breeding seasons. The age and size of the animals makes a big difference too, just as with balls.

What constitutes 'pretty', or 'ugly' in ball pythons is in the eye of the beholder. Take clowns, for example--I think they are ugly, every one of them. <lol> I don't plan to breed clowns, because I just don't like them. Obviously lots of other people disagree. I don't like G-stripes, but my roomate loves them. Some people like 'lemon' pastels, and other people like "Graziani" pastels--they have two quite different looks to them.

I bred a 'not bad' male pastel to 3 normal females, and produced several decent pastels (including one that is actually pretty good), and some that weren't so nice. I learned which of my normal females is likely to produce babies with lighter or darker colors, with reduced or busy patterns. Was I disappointed by the fact some of the hatchlings weren't that bright? Sure, I was. Especially when I had hoped that beautiful high gold normal would brighten them up. But that illustrates too, selective breeding takes decades to do properly, you just can't predict the outcome of pairing 2 unrelated snakes until you do it. The fact that someone has some snakes up for sale that aren't top-notch doesn't necessarily mean that's what they started with. I think most folks KEEP the top-notch hatchlings, yes?

There are people out there who are just collecting whatever morphs they can, and throwing them with random females to produce as many babies as possible. And it's common practice to throw all of the 'just normals' in a big pile and not bother to keep track of who their parents are. I disagree with that on principle, too. It's all part of one big problem--folks who care more about the bottom line than about the animals themselves. Fortunately, most of those are the folks who are likely to bail out sooner if the market DOES dive.

Who said anything about people producing tons of animals, and breeding them young to get as many as they can as fast as possible? I did. It's all part of the same problem. That problem isn't going to actually fix itself until consumers start becoming more picky. Right now, there is a market for less than perfect morphs--whether people coming in at the ground level, or folks looking for a pet, or some of those less than ethical breeders who just want to produce gobs of hatchlings. MOST people aren't doing graded pricing, at least not to any significant degree. I do think we are going to see that changing in coming years. I hope there's never a point where such animals are considered 'worthless', because it would be a shame to see them treated in that fashion.

No one has decided to sit down and write a standard of beauty for morphs. Trends are developing, but that's about it. You have a lot of people developing their own lines for various morphs that can look quite different from one another. You can decide "this pastel is very brown, he is only good for keeping as a pet". Or you could decide "this pastel is very brown, I wonder what will happen if I cross it with a chocolate?" I don't think that issue is quite as clear-cut a problem as folks tossing a pile of normal hatchlings into a bin without regard to parentage or whether they're even eating.

 

[Cat_72]

selective breeding takes decades to do properly, you just can't predict the outcome of pairing 2 unrelated snakes until you do it. The fact that someone has some snakes up for sale that aren't top-notch doesn't necessarily mean that's what they started with. I think most folks KEEP the top-notch hatchlings, yes?

NO, selective breeding does NOT take decades to do properly.....it means STARTING with the best quality stock you can buy, not some butt-ugly pastel because he was cheap. And no, not everyone keeps all of their top-notch hatchlings, especially males.

There are people out there who are just collecting whatever morphs they can, and throwing them with random females to produce as many babies as possible.

Very true....and I don't agree with that either. However...those are the same folks buying the butt-ugly pastels, because they are cheap, and a GOOD breeder would not put them into their gene pool.

And at that point, I stop posting,

Really?

Right now, there is a market for less than perfect morphs--whether people coming in at the ground level, or folks looking for a pet, or some of those less than ethical breeders who just want to produce gobs of hatchlings. MOST people aren't doing graded pricing, at least not to any significant degree.

Just because you sem to think there is a "market" for them, that means that you should breed them? It's attitude like that that keeps these "less than ethical" breeders you speak of going. And graded pricing has been common for a long time.....not sure what you've been looking at....? They don't specifically call it "grade 3 pastel" or something of the sort, but a person sets prices according to the quality, with the butt-ugly ones being cheap.

You're talking in a circle, and not going anywhere. Donna says, "it's ok that I breed butt-ugly pastels, because there's a market for them with the less than ethical breeders who mass produce babies and those mass-producing breeders are evil because they don't care about the animals but since they create a market for the butt-uglies I shall breed them......." and so on and so forth. WTF?

I hope there's never a point where such animals are considered 'worthless', because it would be a shame to see them treated in that fashion.

If you're so concerned about people regarding butt-ugly pastels "worthless" and "treating them like garbage"...why the do you support breeding them??

 

[WingedWolf]

All right, apparently the adults have left the building, and it's going to be nothing but personal attacks here, so I give up entirely at this point. The moderators apparently aren't paying any attention, or don't care.

I don't consider my male pastel to be 'butt-ugly', and I consider some of his offspring to be decent. I don't really care what YOU think of them, as obviously you aren't buying them. You've turned this discussion around into something about MY animals. Having a civil debate around here is apparently useless, because the trolls...well, they infest every forum, and once you all decide you don't like an individual, you make a point of hounding them wherever they go.

And honestly--you can sit and spin.

If you don't see a problem with the way people treat and consider normal ball pythons, that's also your view. I treat mine with the same care I give to my expensive morphs.
I have nothing but contempt for those who do otherwise.

 

[Cat_72]

If you don't see a problem with the way people treat and consider normal ball pythons, that's also your view. I treat mine with the same care I give to my expensive morphs.

Please show me where ANYONE here has said that normal ball pythons should be treated any less humanely than a morph? I specifically said that a butt-ugly pastel (or normal, or whatever) is just as much a living being as any other, and should be treated as such. They simply should not be bred. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to understand. Selective breeding - SELECTING only the best quality specimens to reproduce. Simple concept.

If you could make the effort to understand what others are saying, and keep your own posts from rotation in ideals, we COULD have a civil debate. Part of having a civil debate is giving consideration to what the other poster says. I agreed with you on a couple of points, and noted such, and honestly tried to understand what you were trying to say....I just couldn't.

Kind of on a tangent, I had one of those "Sit and Spin" things when I was a kid.....used to laugh and spin til I was sick to my stomach....my kids had to have one when they were little too. Good, simple fun.

 

[hhmoore]

All right, apparently the adults have left the building, and it's going to be nothing but personal attacks here, so I give up entirely at this point. The moderators apparently aren't paying any attention, or don't care.

And just what is it you expect the moderation staff to do, Donna?

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I think you are supposed to step in and tell people to agree with her, or else.

That's sorta how it comes across to me anyway.

 

[hhmoore]

From a moderator perspective - I haven't really seen much worth fussing over in this thread. All things considered, I think people are conducting themselves pretty darned well.

From a personal perspective - I don't agree with some of Donna's statements and explanations...but there are some that I do agree with. I think it is human nature to apply one's own thoughts and experiences in a discussion of this nature. However, when one does so to the extent that subsequent topics are personalized, its a downhill slide. Donna - you don't have nearly the experience of some of the people you are trying to go toe to toe with. Instead of becoming defensive, and offensive, try listening and considering. You've still got a lot to learn...and IMO the goings on in HELL don't have a whole lot to do with this discussion. People, for the most part, are disagreeing with what you are saying based primarily upon content - if it had to do with the impressions you've made elsewhere, the thread would have died, or had to be killed.

 

[WingedWolf]

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

 

[shrap]

Waaa waaa sniffle sniffle waaa.

Maybe someday you will grow up and and be a big enough person to look in the mirror and be honest with yourself.

 

[LakesideBoas]

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

When you make a "blanket" statement and someone disagrees with you, pointing out why I might ad, it is not an attack, it's a discussion.

If you make a statement, stand beind that statement, or if you feel you might be wrong, say so. Your inability to do either of those things is apalling.

You are the first person to pull the "poor me" card and start waving it around. You are the one who seems incapable of conducting a civil conversation around here. Because someone doesn't agree with every utterance you make does not label them a troll.

 

[LakesideBoas]

Oh and one more thing (Kelly's probably going to fall out of her chair) out of two pair and one trio of Leos last year I got 56 viable eggs and hatchlings. I had six eggs go bad (incubators and cats don't mix).

The parents are still with me and happy and healthy this year taking a break from breeding--not because I don't think they'll do well and maintain their health--but because I simply don't have room for any more babies.

 

[jayefbe]

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

You are such a fucking idiot. You're the one making ad hominen arguments. You've never defended any of your viewpoints, nor have you even understood other people's responses to you. You've done nothing but convey an undeserved sense of arrogance and condescension. It's simply amazing how ignorant you are of how you act, and how you carry yourself on this site. This isn't something that only "trolls" feel, I'm sure people can stand you in the everyday world either. We've just been honest enough to call you out on your shit. It's awfully tiresome having to read inane, thoughtless, wrong, and condescending posts from someone who DOESN'T KNOW SHIT!

Fuck, gain some perspective. We all don't dislike you just because we don't agree with you sometimes. It's because your opinions aren't based on anything but your uninformed hunches and hearsay.

FUCK you are annoying.

 

[jayefbe]

You are such a fucking idiot. You're the one making ad hominen arguments. You've never defended any of your viewpoints, nor have you even understood other people's responses to you. You've done nothing but convey an undeserved sense of arrogance and condescension. It's simply amazing how ignorant you are of how you act, and how you carry yourself on this site. This isn't something that only "trolls" feel, I'm sure people can stand you in the everyday world either. We've just been honest enough to call you out on your shit. It's awfully tiresome having to read inane, thoughtless, wrong, and condescending posts from someone who DOESN'T KNOW SHIT!

Fuck, gain some perspective. We all don't dislike you just because we don't agree with you sometimes. It's because your opinions aren't based on anything but your uninformed hunches and hearsay.

FUCK you are annoying.

Whoops, I'm gonna get it for that. I thought I was in hell.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Yep, please be more careful. Let's keep it in hell and get back to the original topic.

Thanks.

 

[deborahbroadus]

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

I actually do agree with a lot of what you are saying. Part of the problem (as I see it) is we tend to personalize our experiences and state them as fact (they are facts in our experiences).

Stick it out, you'll be fine.

Now about selectively breeding...I do it all the time!! I select and then I breed! I am JOKING fellas.

I have thought the same as you..when it comes to selectively breeding, you can buy a "top of the line" Morph and breed it to a very pretty normal with all the desired traits (blushing, color, temperament) and still throw some "pet" quality animals. From my experience even having two top quality morphs will also not always guarantee quality hatchlings (although my pieds and mojaves were spectacular if i do say so myself).

So simply saying we shouldn't put two "butt-ugly" animals together isn't explaining a lot, because what could be "butt-ugly" to one is not necessarily "butt-ugly" to someone else.

But this is all old news to these "older heads" and nothing new. Humor us as we try and wrestle our way though what we are learning, please?

 

[KelliH]

But this is all old news to these "older heads" and nothing new. Humor us as we try and wrestle our way though what we are learning, please?

You know what, I like what you said there.
We were all newbies once.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

You know what, I like what you said there.
We were all newbies once.

It's just that there is a little bit of difference in saying "I'm sorta new" to whatever, and telling everyone around you, they are wrong, She is right, we're all bashing her, although nobody else can see it, because we must all be blind.

The former shows a bit of maturity, and ownership of your ignorance. That's not a bad thing at all, and also deserving of a little extra patience.

 

[jayefbe]

It's just that there is a little bit of difference in saying "I'm sorta new" to whatever, and telling everyone around you, they are wrong, She is right, we're all bashing her, although nobody else can see it, because we must all be blind.

The former shows a bit of maturity, and ownership of your ignorance. That's not a bad thing at all, and also deserving of a little extra patience.

Totally agree, and this is the point I was crudely trying to make earlier. I do also want to apologize for my aforementioned post, it was totally inappropriate for this forum. I forgot where I was and wouldn't have spoken so strongly otherwise.