I too agree with this 100%
Considering there has been next to NO enforcement of the rules, I doubt there will be in the future unless more moderators are added. It's too much for just a few to moderate.
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No rules or ruthless enforcement of the rules?
- Thread starter WebSlave
- Start date
I too agree with this 100%
Considering there has been next to NO enforcement of the rules, I doubt there will be in the future unless more moderators are added. It's too much for just a few to moderate.
maybe then
if its too much to ask for more mods, there could be a stat level, like so and so is respected, and had 500 post he can be a sub level mod, and when he hits 750 he gets a higher stat, and so on, I am not sure how that would work, but we could see if the mods would be interested, then set up a poll of the top guys and vote?
My only fear is that it does seem there are some who have strong opinions, as I do , and dont always shoot from the hip. Its just an idea, but we are all apart of it , and its a part of us, and we do police ourselves to some degree, like when someone pushes it, they get pounced on by other members, from that point it follows the pyramid up to the head honcho, seems actually like the systems fine now that I look at it that way.
Oh and some of the point deductions dont really seem to be reasonable, and are whimish, If someone doesnt post his name over and over and over, and even with warning, I could see a point hit, but I have seen some newbys get hit real quick,I know its hard to catch every thread, I havent slept in months and still havent read them all(lol) . But I have all of my acrylic cages with all of my chondros and what have you in my office around me so I have an excuse!
I guess it was my first beware post on the forum and I didnt understand the rules completely and I got a point, I am not whining I just feel theres bigger fish to fry, My big points were well deserved and I would do it again in a heartbeat, I am actually very proud of that indeed, Its like a badge of honor, or a crown of inflametory victory? I still giggle at that one when I need to be cheered up(lmfao)
This is just a thought, but if we continue to police ourselves, and when major issues come up, as users of this forum we should commit to tell the higher ups, I think other than a bit of a headache, and just judgments it will work?
if its too much to ask for more mods, there could be a stat level, like so and so is respected, and had 500 post he can be a sub level mod, and when he hits 750 he gets a higher stat, and so on, I am not sure how that would work, but we could see if the mods would be interested, then set up a poll of the top guys and vote?
My only fear is that it does seem there are some who have strong opinions, as I do , and dont always shoot from the hip. Its just an idea, but we are all apart of it , and its a part of us, and we do police ourselves to some degree, like when someone pushes it, they get pounced on by other members, from that point it follows the pyramid up to the head honcho, seems actually like the systems fine now that I look at it that way.
Oh and some of the point deductions dont really seem to be reasonable, and are whimish, If someone doesnt post his name over and over and over, and even with warning, I could see a point hit, but I have seen some newbys get hit real quick,I know its hard to catch every thread, I havent slept in months and still havent read them all(lol) . But I have all of my acrylic cages with all of my chondros and what have you in my office around me so I have an excuse!
I guess it was my first beware post on the forum and I didnt understand the rules completely and I got a point, I am not whining I just feel theres bigger fish to fry, My big points were well deserved and I would do it again in a heartbeat, I am actually very proud of that indeed, Its like a badge of honor, or a crown of inflametory victory? I still giggle at that one when I need to be cheered up(lmfao)
This is just a thought, but if we continue to police ourselves, and when major issues come up, as users of this forum we should commit to tell the higher ups, I think other than a bit of a headache, and just judgments it will work?
Sybella
Call me High Maintenance
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I moderate a few forums and it's not always easy...in fact, it's rarely easy! LOL! As a moderator, you want to make sure everyone has a good time and feels at home but at the same time, if there is too much freedom and member control, you get a chewing out when you try to enforce anything. It's a tough balance to find and maintain, as the median always moves as membership rises and declines.
The only way to maintain respect as an authority figure is to try to be consistenly fair and enforce the rules. One cannot abolish the rules one week and then try to enforce them again the next without a riot. I feel that it is the change in the rules and/or the change in the enforcement of them that creates the biggest tourmoil on a public forum.
Unfortunately, it's all about change and how people are resistant to it...which is why you get whiny messages when you assign violation points. In effect, to the person who received a warning, a "change" has been made. They could post what they wanted before and now they cannot. You could just ignore it but then they just get even more upset, which creates more work for you than if you had just answered their questions to begin with.
Remember that no matter what you do, you can't please everyone. It sucks. But, that doesn't matter too much because if you are paying for people to come and play here, it's not unreasonable for you to expect that they follow the rules set forth.
On a personal note, I too was highly disappointed, and even a bit angered, when previously banned members were allowed to return. One in particular was banned and allowed to return a couple of times. The last time he was banned it was because he used the Fauna system to personally attack me...I was assured that he was permanently banned as a consequence.
The only way to maintain respect as an authority figure is to try to be consistenly fair and enforce the rules. One cannot abolish the rules one week and then try to enforce them again the next without a riot. I feel that it is the change in the rules and/or the change in the enforcement of them that creates the biggest tourmoil on a public forum.
Unfortunately, it's all about change and how people are resistant to it...which is why you get whiny messages when you assign violation points. In effect, to the person who received a warning, a "change" has been made. They could post what they wanted before and now they cannot. You could just ignore it but then they just get even more upset, which creates more work for you than if you had just answered their questions to begin with.
Remember that no matter what you do, you can't please everyone. It sucks. But, that doesn't matter too much because if you are paying for people to come and play here, it's not unreasonable for you to expect that they follow the rules set forth.
On a personal note, I too was highly disappointed, and even a bit angered, when previously banned members were allowed to return. One in particular was banned and allowed to return a couple of times. The last time he was banned it was because he used the Fauna system to personally attack me...I was assured that he was permanently banned as a consequence.
John Albrecht
New member
Hi Rich
I think you should do whatever is easiest on you Rich. You don't have to be perfect in your administration. A reasonable effort at fairness, not perfection, is all that should be expected.
I think you should do whatever is easiest on you Rich. You don't have to be perfect in your administration. A reasonable effort at fairness, not perfection, is all that should be expected.
Stardust
human
I am not too sure inviting everyone to be the eyes for this site is a good idea. IMO it is defeating the purpose of Rich having less work. Instead of Rich getting whiners, he will also get a slew of tattletale emails, that might be more trouble than what its worth.
Perhaps this should be public as well. A place for the whiners and a place for letting the moderators know where and what page a no-no has occurred.
If people know all letters of whining and tattling would be made public then perhaps it would keep the "private" whiners and tattlers down for Rich.
IMO this is about keeping Rich's frustration level down yet sticking to the rules and enforcing them. I think the only way to do both is to make it all public.
Perhaps this should be public as well. A place for the whiners and a place for letting the moderators know where and what page a no-no has occurred.
If people know all letters of whining and tattling would be made public then perhaps it would keep the "private" whiners and tattlers down for Rich.
IMO this is about keeping Rich's frustration level down yet sticking to the rules and enforcing them. I think the only way to do both is to make it all public.
redtailboas
www.redtailboas.com
Strictly enforce the rules.
I think doing so adds to the validity of this forum. Without such enforcement, I am not sure it would hold the same value to people as it does now.
I think doing so adds to the validity of this forum. Without such enforcement, I am not sure it would hold the same value to people as it does now.
bud mierkey
New member
Make the rules rule!
without rules it would be anarchy!
without rules it would be anarchy!
brucestephenson
New member
I would continue to do as you have been doing. Moderate when you have the time for it. The addition of just one crappy moderator, such as one of the clique members, will destroy everything you have worked for.
kingmike
New member
The rules need to be in place and enforced at all times. I realize how dificult it would be to do this on a forum as widely used as this but without the rules this forum would loose most of what usefulness it has. The main problem here is everyone needs to be treated equally when it comes to rule violations and that simply is not the case here. I have seen a couple times where someone would "flame" another person sometimes even several times, then the "attackee" would retaliate and then get warning points for it. When questioned about it the mod giving out the points would usually respond with something to the effect of, I cant read the entire thread, I only saw this post and acted accordingly with the warning. Which, even IF true, would still be wrong. What a lot of people here dont realize is a lot of the people who do not use this site is because of that reason right there. I can count myself as one of them in a sense, The BOI to me has become more of an entertainment than a tool, and that trully saddens me. The idea of the BOI is a great one, but without fairness and equality to ALL members no matter what, then thats all it is, an idea.
I dont want to be flamed or anything for this post, I was just stateing my opinion of the effectiveness of the rules here in my opinion, I have spoken to many other herpers, people that have never had a bad thing said about them, and I even just bought an albino BP from someone who I asked if they frequented this site, and most of them when asked would respond with the same thoughts, that the favoritism here is one of the biggest downfalls of this site.
I also realize that I dont have to use this site, so please no responses to the effect of, If you dont like it here then dont come here or anything like that. I was just stateing my .02 cents. Thank you for taking the time to read it.
I dont want to be flamed or anything for this post, I was just stateing my opinion of the effectiveness of the rules here in my opinion, I have spoken to many other herpers, people that have never had a bad thing said about them, and I even just bought an albino BP from someone who I asked if they frequented this site, and most of them when asked would respond with the same thoughts, that the favoritism here is one of the biggest downfalls of this site.
I also realize that I dont have to use this site, so please no responses to the effect of, If you dont like it here then dont come here or anything like that. I was just stateing my .02 cents. Thank you for taking the time to read it.
Stardust comment
My suggestion is for a few moderators to be added if possible, Not everyone. I don't see how a few more good moderators will add to Rich's workload. More the opposite. I think it would help Rich and reduce some of the crap floating around on the BOI
The BOI for a whole works really well when used for what it was intended for. When used for attacking people, starting rumors or just to start an entertainment fight because someone has nothing better to do gets irritating. Which often gets way out of hand untill later, rather then sooner, the thread is finally ended.
Fauna and the BOI is by far the best site for making an inquiry about an individual or business you have not delt with, but would possibly like to.
Without it, there would be a huge amount of bad deals, bad dealers and ripped off people. I myself just avoided dealing with a business that appears to have a bad rep and if it wasn't for the BOI I would probably of ended up with a major headache!
Kingmike comment -
I do agree with this in part. I have spoken to some that are not Fauna members, but are well aware of the BOI and the same applies, but I think you get that on all forums!
I didn't vote on the poll due to the lack of options. There is really only one option to choose from and let's face it, who is going to pick the "To heck with the Rules" option? I mean, come on!
Which leaves you being directed in the one direction. I think there should of been a "continue as is" option available because I think that is what will happen anyway AND that for the most part is working just fine because I know who is good and who is bad. I think an extra moderator or two would help. Otherwise, why change something that works so effectively.
My suggestion is for a few moderators to be added if possible, Not everyone. I don't see how a few more good moderators will add to Rich's workload. More the opposite. I think it would help Rich and reduce some of the crap floating around on the BOI
The BOI for a whole works really well when used for what it was intended for. When used for attacking people, starting rumors or just to start an entertainment fight because someone has nothing better to do gets irritating. Which often gets way out of hand untill later, rather then sooner, the thread is finally ended.
Fauna and the BOI is by far the best site for making an inquiry about an individual or business you have not delt with, but would possibly like to.
Without it, there would be a huge amount of bad deals, bad dealers and ripped off people. I myself just avoided dealing with a business that appears to have a bad rep and if it wasn't for the BOI I would probably of ended up with a major headache!
Kingmike comment -
I do agree with this in part. I have spoken to some that are not Fauna members, but are well aware of the BOI and the same applies, but I think you get that on all forums!
I didn't vote on the poll due to the lack of options. There is really only one option to choose from and let's face it, who is going to pick the "To heck with the Rules" option? I mean, come on!
Which leaves you being directed in the one direction. I think there should of been a "continue as is" option available because I think that is what will happen anyway AND that for the most part is working just fine because I know who is good and who is bad. I think an extra moderator or two would help. Otherwise, why change something that works so effectively.
Favoritism? How so?
From my perspective, the only time I can see where that perception may have taken place would be in relation to Ritchie Luna and the way his job here required him to work. Many people do not realize that his job was not actually a a moderator, but was instead as an instigator to try to root out the bad guys by using any method possible to do so.
Let's face it, bad guys are going to do anything they can to try to muddy the waters when their actions come into scrutiny here. They will lie, sign up under false names to refute the accusations, and generally try as hard as they can to discredit anyone trying to bring their operation to a halt. Ritchie was the one who would go after this sort of person working their smoke screens on this site. Was it a gentle process? Heck no. Ritchie HAD to get down and dirty with these people in order to be effective.
And yes, it probably did appear that I was playing Ritchie as a favorite because he was allowed the freedom to post in a manner that other people would get warning points for. That is because that was his JOB. Did he make mistakes? Well, yes, he did. But I think those few errors were FAR outweighed by the number of times his actions have undoubtedly saved a lot of people a lot of time, money and grief, by digging out the bad guys and putting the spotlight on them. I think the price of an occasional error was well worth it, but you can make up your own mind about that yourself.
Of course someone new dropping in on this site for the first time would not realize that and may easily misinterpret that as favoritism. But I doubt I will ever have time nor incentive to post disclaimers on every thread where such a thing may have taken place. There are a LOT of new people signing on here every day. There is no way everyone can possibly come up to speed quickly in an environment such as this.
And yes, there are MANY occasions where I myself would casually scan a thread and have a message catch my eye for one reason of the other that deserved warning points. Am I going to go back and analyze the entire thread to see if other posters deserve points as well? Probably not. Am I going to scan back in the thread to see if this message I just gave warning points was a justified response (in the posters mind) to a like message posted by someone else? Not likely.
Just as a traffic cop can't possibly pull over everyone on the road who is speeding, I cannot take the time to try to read each and every message posted here. Try it sometime. When you get pulled over for speeding, tell the officer that he better go catch everyone else speeding if he is going to be writing YOU a ticket.
If you decide to post in a manner that is contrary to the rules, yes you MAY get away with it. But if you do not, and someone else does get away with it, then is it not any sort of favoritism at all. It is simply the fact that you got caught and someone else did not. If you send me an email or PM complaining about this, although I may very well read it, I am not likely going to waste my time responding to it, much less explaining things that I have said MANY times elsewhere on this site.
Will there be favoritism towards moderators here? Certainly there will be to a slight degree. Just as police officers are allowed to carry guns in circumstances where the general population are not allowed, they have to be granted a bit more leeway here in order to do their jobs effectively. But any moderator who steps widely over the bounds is certainly subject to being a recipient of warning points, just as anyone else is. The moderators are VOLUNTEERS here and as such, I am surely not going to hamstring them by not allowing them a bit more freedom to be able to help us all out by attempting to maintain some semblance of order around here.
The BOI can be VERY rough and tumble at times, and in many cases needs to be so in order to accomplish what it is here to do. Personally, I would LIKE it to be widely known that ANYONE posting anything on the BOI will have it come under close and detailed scrutiny to try to determine the truth of those words. Quite frankly, if someone does not have a strong enough case, nor the backbone to be able to stand up under this sort of scrutiny, then the BOI just is not the place for you to be posting your messages. NOTHING should be taken at face value here. Proof is not necessary, but truthfullness and believability definitely are. If you can prove what you say, then it will go a long way in giving you the credibility that your initial statements may lack. But that is your choice to make in how far you want to go in order to be credible in what you say here.
And this is another point which needs to be made here in this context. Advertisers are NOT afforded any special considerations on this site. Paying for advertising does not give an advertiser any immunity to being scrutinized on the BOI, nor give them any special considerations. Especially those in which a violation of my own rules would be necessary in order to comply with their requests. The advertising was set up as a manner in which people and businesses can advertise their products with a lot of exposure, in return for the donations of the cost of advertising being used to cover the expenses of maintaining this site. The advertisers and the occasional donations from readers here provide the funds to keep this site up and running. Although I would like to do this all on my own shoulders, I would hope that enough people would see the value of this in order to help out financially to keep this all running.
So if a current advertiser, or potentially new advertiser is thinking that the money paid for the banner ads is good insurance for protection on the BOI, they are bound to be in for a very rude awakening. NO ONE's advertising money is worth me jeopardising my own personal integrity, not the integity of what I am trying to build with the BOI.
I hope this is VERY clear to all involved.
So, after having read the above, maybe you can get some idea of why I started this poll. The above is a LOT of work. Is it really worth it for me to continue doing so? I can make this a whole lot less work for me by simply removing any method to directly contact me (removing the moderators as well), read only the few threads that are of direct interest to me and ignore the rest. And make this an online soap opera of the herp industry. That way you can all just beat each others brains out online, and I will be in here laughing along with everyone else at the antics we will all see.
Or I can try to keep the BOI as a valuable tool to help us all enjoy this business by making the effort to weed out those people who are doing their best to make our hobby and businesses a major headache. Although there is going to be some of both, regardless of what I try to do, I am not going to keep on fighting and wasting my time and efforts if it is not worth the effort on my part. So every once in a while, I will post something like this that is really nothing more than a vote of condidence from you all as to what YOU want this site to be.
Because if any of you think that I have made any money in the past, am now making any money now, or think I will make any money in the future from this site, then I suggest you try this yourself and see what you can come up with. Just don't quit your day job quite yet, however.
From my perspective, the only time I can see where that perception may have taken place would be in relation to Ritchie Luna and the way his job here required him to work. Many people do not realize that his job was not actually a a moderator, but was instead as an instigator to try to root out the bad guys by using any method possible to do so.
Let's face it, bad guys are going to do anything they can to try to muddy the waters when their actions come into scrutiny here. They will lie, sign up under false names to refute the accusations, and generally try as hard as they can to discredit anyone trying to bring their operation to a halt. Ritchie was the one who would go after this sort of person working their smoke screens on this site. Was it a gentle process? Heck no. Ritchie HAD to get down and dirty with these people in order to be effective.
And yes, it probably did appear that I was playing Ritchie as a favorite because he was allowed the freedom to post in a manner that other people would get warning points for. That is because that was his JOB. Did he make mistakes? Well, yes, he did. But I think those few errors were FAR outweighed by the number of times his actions have undoubtedly saved a lot of people a lot of time, money and grief, by digging out the bad guys and putting the spotlight on them. I think the price of an occasional error was well worth it, but you can make up your own mind about that yourself.
Of course someone new dropping in on this site for the first time would not realize that and may easily misinterpret that as favoritism. But I doubt I will ever have time nor incentive to post disclaimers on every thread where such a thing may have taken place. There are a LOT of new people signing on here every day. There is no way everyone can possibly come up to speed quickly in an environment such as this.
And yes, there are MANY occasions where I myself would casually scan a thread and have a message catch my eye for one reason of the other that deserved warning points. Am I going to go back and analyze the entire thread to see if other posters deserve points as well? Probably not. Am I going to scan back in the thread to see if this message I just gave warning points was a justified response (in the posters mind) to a like message posted by someone else? Not likely.
Just as a traffic cop can't possibly pull over everyone on the road who is speeding, I cannot take the time to try to read each and every message posted here. Try it sometime. When you get pulled over for speeding, tell the officer that he better go catch everyone else speeding if he is going to be writing YOU a ticket.
If you decide to post in a manner that is contrary to the rules, yes you MAY get away with it. But if you do not, and someone else does get away with it, then is it not any sort of favoritism at all. It is simply the fact that you got caught and someone else did not. If you send me an email or PM complaining about this, although I may very well read it, I am not likely going to waste my time responding to it, much less explaining things that I have said MANY times elsewhere on this site.
Will there be favoritism towards moderators here? Certainly there will be to a slight degree. Just as police officers are allowed to carry guns in circumstances where the general population are not allowed, they have to be granted a bit more leeway here in order to do their jobs effectively. But any moderator who steps widely over the bounds is certainly subject to being a recipient of warning points, just as anyone else is. The moderators are VOLUNTEERS here and as such, I am surely not going to hamstring them by not allowing them a bit more freedom to be able to help us all out by attempting to maintain some semblance of order around here.
The BOI can be VERY rough and tumble at times, and in many cases needs to be so in order to accomplish what it is here to do. Personally, I would LIKE it to be widely known that ANYONE posting anything on the BOI will have it come under close and detailed scrutiny to try to determine the truth of those words. Quite frankly, if someone does not have a strong enough case, nor the backbone to be able to stand up under this sort of scrutiny, then the BOI just is not the place for you to be posting your messages. NOTHING should be taken at face value here. Proof is not necessary, but truthfullness and believability definitely are. If you can prove what you say, then it will go a long way in giving you the credibility that your initial statements may lack. But that is your choice to make in how far you want to go in order to be credible in what you say here.
And this is another point which needs to be made here in this context. Advertisers are NOT afforded any special considerations on this site. Paying for advertising does not give an advertiser any immunity to being scrutinized on the BOI, nor give them any special considerations. Especially those in which a violation of my own rules would be necessary in order to comply with their requests. The advertising was set up as a manner in which people and businesses can advertise their products with a lot of exposure, in return for the donations of the cost of advertising being used to cover the expenses of maintaining this site. The advertisers and the occasional donations from readers here provide the funds to keep this site up and running. Although I would like to do this all on my own shoulders, I would hope that enough people would see the value of this in order to help out financially to keep this all running.
So if a current advertiser, or potentially new advertiser is thinking that the money paid for the banner ads is good insurance for protection on the BOI, they are bound to be in for a very rude awakening. NO ONE's advertising money is worth me jeopardising my own personal integrity, not the integity of what I am trying to build with the BOI.
I hope this is VERY clear to all involved.
So, after having read the above, maybe you can get some idea of why I started this poll. The above is a LOT of work. Is it really worth it for me to continue doing so? I can make this a whole lot less work for me by simply removing any method to directly contact me (removing the moderators as well), read only the few threads that are of direct interest to me and ignore the rest. And make this an online soap opera of the herp industry. That way you can all just beat each others brains out online, and I will be in here laughing along with everyone else at the antics we will all see.
Or I can try to keep the BOI as a valuable tool to help us all enjoy this business by making the effort to weed out those people who are doing their best to make our hobby and businesses a major headache. Although there is going to be some of both, regardless of what I try to do, I am not going to keep on fighting and wasting my time and efforts if it is not worth the effort on my part. So every once in a while, I will post something like this that is really nothing more than a vote of condidence from you all as to what YOU want this site to be.
Because if any of you think that I have made any money in the past, am now making any money now, or think I will make any money in the future from this site, then I suggest you try this yourself and see what you can come up with. Just don't quit your day job quite yet, however.
Sybella
Call me High Maintenance
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
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- 938
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- 0
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- 0
- Age
- 54
- Location
- Central California, Gringolandia
Like I said before, I am a forum moderator too and it's a very difficult job. A mod shouldn't have to defend their actions or judgement calls but sometimes people need explanations and a good moderator is also a good listener.
Rich, your police officer analogy is really good but not everything on a forum is so cut and dry. This isn't like a speeding ticket situation where if you go 40 you're fine but 41 is bad. Unless you want to spend the next year writing a rule book that states "this" is a violation and anything that isn't listed is not, I don't think there's any way to treat grey areas so lightly without creating more discord. The overall problem is almost never with the rules themselves but how they are enforced.
I feel that if a mod sees a violation to which a warning may be appropriate to someone in a thread, it's only fair to see what the circumstances were surrounding that and act accordingly. Although unintended, it does appear as "favoritism," when one person gets a warning for one post while another made 3 more just like it in the same thread and didn't receive a warning for those. I think that making that change alone will reduce the numer of user-complaints and make this a more harmonious place.
Rich, your police officer analogy is really good but not everything on a forum is so cut and dry. This isn't like a speeding ticket situation where if you go 40 you're fine but 41 is bad. Unless you want to spend the next year writing a rule book that states "this" is a violation and anything that isn't listed is not, I don't think there's any way to treat grey areas so lightly without creating more discord. The overall problem is almost never with the rules themselves but how they are enforced.
I feel that if a mod sees a violation to which a warning may be appropriate to someone in a thread, it's only fair to see what the circumstances were surrounding that and act accordingly. Although unintended, it does appear as "favoritism," when one person gets a warning for one post while another made 3 more just like it in the same thread and didn't receive a warning for those. I think that making that change alone will reduce the numer of user-complaints and make this a more harmonious place.
kingmike
New member
Webslave, I was not refering to Ritchie, and not really to anyone in specific but I could point out several instances ( even one I commented on in the thread ) where this has happened. I dont know how many times I have seen somone write, why didnt so and so get points for whatever? And I would be wondering the same thing, but decided that realistically this is your site and you can do as you wish.
Dont get me wrong, I commend you for having the patience to run this site, but the flaw I pointed out is widely known as a fact, I have no reason to try to start trouble or anything, I just wanted it known the way I felt about it in relation to the rules since a poll realted to it was posted.
As for Ritchie, I understand his role here and know that role requires some leniencey, once again though there is a flaw to that also, I have seen Ritchie go way to far with assumptions that were completely unfounded, and because of his role that appeared to be ok. There should be a limit to the extent that anyone can go to to accomplish their goal. Even if it is their "job". An example of this would be the recent thread where he had said some things to Sybella that I thought were a bit too far. Just so everyone knows I have no idea about the person the thread was actually about, but I do know Sybella and she did not deserve the scrutiny that she was recieving. That is only one example, but an example nontheless.
As for the people that recieve favoritism, the funny thing is, most people know who they are, honestly, many people can sit there and name them off. I am not going to name names because my intention is not to start a war and get people all mad at me.
Neither was my intent to offend you Webslave. But I can honestly say I know of 5 people that I do herp related business with on a pretty regular basis that I met on this site that do not come here anymore because of various reasons like this. Not that they were rooted out as bad guys or anything else, but because the system is flawed. And I have seen several times where you would say something to the effect of tell me how to make it better, then someone would say somthing and get a response something like, if you dont like it, dont use it.
Once again, I want this to be loud and clear, I commend you and the moderators for doing what you do, I know it cant be an easy job. But I used to own Master Communications, at my peak I had 27 employees, nothing compared to this site I know but I did learn one very important lesson. A rule is something etched in stone, and even if it isnt somwhere else still, everyone, and that means everyone must be held to the same standard as everyone else. If not, those rules are absolutely worthless.
I even remember one thread where a couple people commented that the person's response was highly provoked with flameing from another person, still, there was nothing done as in warning points to that person.
I am not dumb enough to think ( pretty close maybe lol ) that doing my business elsewhere now has affected this site in any way, niether am I naive enough to think that voiceing my opinions and telling people I was going to do business elsewhere would have made a differance here. The only reason I brought it up was since I saw this poll, I had a bit of hope that it may help in some way.
P.S. I am in no way saying this site doesnt have uses, it is still a good tool to help people decide who to do business with, especially newbies.
Dont get me wrong, I commend you for having the patience to run this site, but the flaw I pointed out is widely known as a fact, I have no reason to try to start trouble or anything, I just wanted it known the way I felt about it in relation to the rules since a poll realted to it was posted.
As for Ritchie, I understand his role here and know that role requires some leniencey, once again though there is a flaw to that also, I have seen Ritchie go way to far with assumptions that were completely unfounded, and because of his role that appeared to be ok. There should be a limit to the extent that anyone can go to to accomplish their goal. Even if it is their "job". An example of this would be the recent thread where he had said some things to Sybella that I thought were a bit too far. Just so everyone knows I have no idea about the person the thread was actually about, but I do know Sybella and she did not deserve the scrutiny that she was recieving. That is only one example, but an example nontheless.
As for the people that recieve favoritism, the funny thing is, most people know who they are, honestly, many people can sit there and name them off. I am not going to name names because my intention is not to start a war and get people all mad at me.
Neither was my intent to offend you Webslave. But I can honestly say I know of 5 people that I do herp related business with on a pretty regular basis that I met on this site that do not come here anymore because of various reasons like this. Not that they were rooted out as bad guys or anything else, but because the system is flawed. And I have seen several times where you would say something to the effect of tell me how to make it better, then someone would say somthing and get a response something like, if you dont like it, dont use it.
Once again, I want this to be loud and clear, I commend you and the moderators for doing what you do, I know it cant be an easy job. But I used to own Master Communications, at my peak I had 27 employees, nothing compared to this site I know but I did learn one very important lesson. A rule is something etched in stone, and even if it isnt somwhere else still, everyone, and that means everyone must be held to the same standard as everyone else. If not, those rules are absolutely worthless.
I even remember one thread where a couple people commented that the person's response was highly provoked with flameing from another person, still, there was nothing done as in warning points to that person.
I am not dumb enough to think ( pretty close maybe lol ) that doing my business elsewhere now has affected this site in any way, niether am I naive enough to think that voiceing my opinions and telling people I was going to do business elsewhere would have made a differance here. The only reason I brought it up was since I saw this poll, I had a bit of hope that it may help in some way.
P.S. I am in no way saying this site doesnt have uses, it is still a good tool to help people decide who to do business with, especially newbies.
this n that
That was obvious!
That is why the suggestion for an extra moderator or two came about! It's not that cut and dry as sybella explained. So what happens when you get a bunch of speeding people in an area, they add more traffic cops. I don't know if this will work here, but that's why it was suggested.
That is a problem a lot of people seem to have with hit and miss warning points.
It is human nature to re-act in such away when one person gets it, but others don't.
That was obvious!
That is why the suggestion for an extra moderator or two came about! It's not that cut and dry as sybella explained. So what happens when you get a bunch of speeding people in an area, they add more traffic cops. I don't know if this will work here, but that's why it was suggested.
That is a problem a lot of people seem to have with hit and miss warning points.
It is human nature to re-act in such away when one person gets it, but others don't.
Although I do appreciate the suggestions, no, I am not inclined to add more moderators at this time. Why? Because I have seen enough instances where too many moderators can be worse than not enough. I am more afraid of overbearing moderation than I am of anything else on the BOI.
As far as the other comments are concerned, please be aware that this is a free site and as such, I am not getting paid nearly enough to make this a full time job. Although some people may not like being told that this is an "as is" site, that is the truth of the matter. I do ask for opinions and guidance on occasion, but the final decision rests on my shoulders, based on everything I have to consider about this site.
Now if I could get 1,000 people here willing to pay $100 per year for membership, maybe things would change, as I could justify spending a lot more time and effort here. But until that time, I guess you will get the best I can give with the time I have to allocate to this site.
If someone wants to interpret my actions as being favoritism, then so be it, although that has not been my intention. But I am not going to lose sleep over it.
If someone wants to go to another site instead of this one, well have a nice day. I fully encourage everyone to spread around their liability and not be tied 100 percent to any one particular website for anything that may impact their business.
If someone would rather have no rules rather than rules that can be "split-haired" to death, well that is fine with me as well. I have to judge rule violations with a grain of salt and keep in mind what sort of enforcement best reflects the situation at hand. Should I really delete information that is really crucial and important because the poster forgot to provide their full name? Suppose they get frustrated and never come back to repost it? If this same person keeps on posting crucial information yet does not post their full name, what should I do? Should I not assess warning points for profanity because someone 10 pages back may have started the argument using profanity themselves?
If any one of you think that a perfect site is even close to being possible, then I think you need to re-evaluate your view of things. If you want an all out effort to try to get closer to that, then you are not going to get it on a free site with an unpaid administrator (me) and an unpaid staff of moderators. Personally, I don't think many people here now would remain if I started charging for this site, so even that is not really an option here. So, like it or not, you are getting what you are paying for.
And to be frank about it, I'm not even sure I would want this site to become my main source of income and the major drain on my work time. I happen to REALLY like working with my corn snakes.
So, again, the purpose of this thread was to find out the MAJOR direction you want to BOI to go in. I am certain if I had put MAKE THIS SITE PERFECT, then that would have been the top runner, hands down. But STRICTLY enforcing the rules will naturally mean that some people are going to get pissed off by it when they do not agree with the decision made, for whatever reason. And I, nor am I going to ask anyone else to, will EVER take the time to read each and every post in every thread on the BOI, so there are going to be holes in the logic of how even STRICT rules will be enforced. If people cannot accept those warts, then they will simply have to leave in a huff and that will be that. I can see no practical way to do anything at all about that.
See? Instead of spending time on yet another post in this thread, I should be over in the reptile building feeding snakes....
As far as the other comments are concerned, please be aware that this is a free site and as such, I am not getting paid nearly enough to make this a full time job. Although some people may not like being told that this is an "as is" site, that is the truth of the matter. I do ask for opinions and guidance on occasion, but the final decision rests on my shoulders, based on everything I have to consider about this site.
Now if I could get 1,000 people here willing to pay $100 per year for membership, maybe things would change, as I could justify spending a lot more time and effort here. But until that time, I guess you will get the best I can give with the time I have to allocate to this site.
If someone wants to interpret my actions as being favoritism, then so be it, although that has not been my intention. But I am not going to lose sleep over it.
If someone wants to go to another site instead of this one, well have a nice day. I fully encourage everyone to spread around their liability and not be tied 100 percent to any one particular website for anything that may impact their business.
If someone would rather have no rules rather than rules that can be "split-haired" to death, well that is fine with me as well. I have to judge rule violations with a grain of salt and keep in mind what sort of enforcement best reflects the situation at hand. Should I really delete information that is really crucial and important because the poster forgot to provide their full name? Suppose they get frustrated and never come back to repost it? If this same person keeps on posting crucial information yet does not post their full name, what should I do? Should I not assess warning points for profanity because someone 10 pages back may have started the argument using profanity themselves?
If any one of you think that a perfect site is even close to being possible, then I think you need to re-evaluate your view of things. If you want an all out effort to try to get closer to that, then you are not going to get it on a free site with an unpaid administrator (me) and an unpaid staff of moderators. Personally, I don't think many people here now would remain if I started charging for this site, so even that is not really an option here. So, like it or not, you are getting what you are paying for.
And to be frank about it, I'm not even sure I would want this site to become my main source of income and the major drain on my work time. I happen to REALLY like working with my corn snakes.
So, again, the purpose of this thread was to find out the MAJOR direction you want to BOI to go in. I am certain if I had put MAKE THIS SITE PERFECT, then that would have been the top runner, hands down. But STRICTLY enforcing the rules will naturally mean that some people are going to get pissed off by it when they do not agree with the decision made, for whatever reason. And I, nor am I going to ask anyone else to, will EVER take the time to read each and every post in every thread on the BOI, so there are going to be holes in the logic of how even STRICT rules will be enforced. If people cannot accept those warts, then they will simply have to leave in a huff and that will be that. I can see no practical way to do anything at all about that.
See? Instead of spending time on yet another post in this thread, I should be over in the reptile building feeding snakes....
OKAY
That's not such a bad idea. Maybe not $100, but charging something for the ability to sell in the classifieds (even a small amount) could be in your best interests.
Perhaps a poll? Or perhaps not!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't something to this affect floated a while back?
That's not such a bad idea. Maybe not $100, but charging something for the ability to sell in the classifieds (even a small amount) could be in your best interests.
Perhaps a poll? Or perhaps not!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't something to this affect floated a while back?
Yes it was. But I decided that it would not be in the best interests of this site to do that. I still hold that opinion.
dwedeking
Member
Actually I am impressed with this sites "survivability". In the last couple of years I've watched other online reptile communities try to get started and you'll see the traffic spike in the beginning but they soon dwindle down and fade away.
Favoritism. I think it is more a group (that is growing by the day) of "regulars" that exist. Since they are regulars, there is a history and understanding of their point of view from previous posts. So people are less likely to question them as they know the background of the person. This could appear as favoritism to a first time poster or infrequent visitor that doesn't know the history. You'll find this in any type of community, online and real world. If you start vending at shows there is a period of time that it takes before the "regulars" will accept you. The more professional and curteous you are the faster this will happen, and it holds true online as well.
Favoritism. I think it is more a group (that is growing by the day) of "regulars" that exist. Since they are regulars, there is a history and understanding of their point of view from previous posts. So people are less likely to question them as they know the background of the person. This could appear as favoritism to a first time poster or infrequent visitor that doesn't know the history. You'll find this in any type of community, online and real world. If you start vending at shows there is a period of time that it takes before the "regulars" will accept you. The more professional and curteous you are the faster this will happen, and it holds true online as well.
Sybella
Call me High Maintenance
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 938
- Reaction score
- 0
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- 0
- Age
- 54
- Location
- Central California, Gringolandia
Oh sheesh!! Now what, Rich?? You started this thread to get our opinions but have a refuttal for all of them. Then complain that you spend too much time here but refuse the suggestion of adding more moderators too? Why do you ask us just to waste our time?? We could be feeding our snakes too!
Yeah, you're frustrated...so are we! This isn't an "us" against "you" situation. Obviously you have many people here that are willing and trying to help, as evidenced by several pages of posts here. You could at least thank us for trying to offer the help you asked for if you don't find it within yourself to give our imput some consideration.
(Thank you for your kind words, Mike.
)