North American Cobra?

[TJEvans]

I had heard (not read) that there is scientific proof of a large Cobra-like elapid that historically roamed the Southeastern parts of North America. Is this true?

If so, it could be a good explanation for the habit of hognosed snakes and false water cobras to "hood" as a defensive threat display.

Has anyone heard such a story? Had the species actually existed in South and Central Americas if it's true?

Are there any sources for this?

Thanks
Todd Evans

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

I have personally never heard of large elapids roaming the western hemisphere, but I don't think it is out of reason. After all, there are several species of elapid Coral Snakes in North and South America. So I don't think it would be THAT much of a stretch for larger elapid species to have lived in this part of the world at some time, though I personally haven't heard nor seen any evidence of this.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I have never heard of any indigenous large elapids in the Americas, so I can't help you on that. However, back in the 1950s in Springfield, MO, there was an exotic pet shop that had a shipment of cobras brought to their store (what were they thinking???). Someone made a mistake, and the animals escaped. I don't think it took more than a day or two for all of them to be accounted for (captured or killed), but it certainly made everyone here in the Ozarks take notice for a while!

As for the hognose snakes and false water cobras hooding, do you suppose they are mimmicing an long dead large elapid of the Americas, or do you suppose they are simply hooding for the same reason the cobra does: to make itself look bigger? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

[TJEvans]

I personally think that hognose and fwc are mimicking a behavior. I mean, realistically, they wouldn't be a major threat to a large predator if they were to bite it, whereas a cobra is certainly a danger.

Judging frm the way that colubrids tend to "rattle" their tail mimicking a rattler, when threatened, leads me to this conclusion.

I wish I could remember the story or could find a website that may have it listed. But according to my friend, there was a fossilized skeleton found in southern Florida. It was supposedly front, fixed fanged, yet was significantly larger than any elapids native to the area. something like 6 feet.....that's a pretty BIG coral snake. They also said that there was evidence that the skeleton was able to flatten the bones on it's neck, leading to the theory that it was possibly a lost species of North American cobra.

I'm pretty sure that the fossil was dated prior to European colonization. So if this story were true, there is no evidence that this creature still roams the land......

anyway........if anybody can find ANYTHING supporting a story similar to this, please contribute

thanks
Todd Evans

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Todd,

I am not trying to knock you on this, but if hognoses and false water cobras are "trying" to mimic a cobra by flattening their necks, then what are cobras trying to mimic? As Darrin said, those snakes flatten their necks for the same reason that a cobra does, to appear larger and more threatening.

As for rattling, colubrids are not trying to mimic rattlers. And colubrids are not the only snakes in North America that rattle their tails. Agkistrodons do it as well, and they have venom as potent as some of the rattlers. Also, many Asian species of Elaphe rattle their tails, and there are no species of rattlesnakes ever recorded to have lived anywhere outside of North and Central America. So what rattlesnakes are they mimicking?

Again, I think it is POSSIBLE that there could have been a large elapid living in the Western Hemisphere at some point, but without seeing anything more about the fossils in question, I'm feeling fairly skeptical at the moment. And oh yeah, I will have to look it up to be sure, but I think there is a species of South American Coral Snake that gets up to 5 feet long, so a large species similar to a coral is not out of the range of possibility.

 

[herpetological]

(M. Spixi)

Brazilian Giant Coral reaches 6 feet maybe more. Just a note. Thanks Ray HBR

 

[John Albrecht]

There used to be a giant rattler

It's documented by the fossil record. It is called Crotalus giganticus. The fossil records indicate that it grew to about 20 foot long and strongly resembled adamantus, just a lot bigger. It occupied the approximately the same range as adamantus

I think the current theory is that the native indians managed to wipe it out.

What a rush it would have been to find one.!

 

[diamondback1]

Just imagine the amount of venom a snake that size would be able to produce, not to mention the size of the fangs.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I will have to look it up to be sure, but I think there is a species of South American Coral Snake that gets up to 5 feet long, so a large species similar to a coral is not out of the range of possibility

Micrurus surinamensis, one of my favorite snakes despite having never so much as seen one in person... And a serious wish list kind of animal for anyone who happens to be a smuggler that wants to include me on their Christmas list.

Got a bunch of common names, as Ray mentioned... Pick two of the following and apply them together in front of the word "Coral": Amazon, Giant, Aquatic.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Oh yeah... and there are records of them breaking six feet, although not by too much, with decent regularity.

The best part though... The colors are "reversed" so that if someone tries to identify them using those fairly silly rhymes, they're going to be in for a bit of a surprise. There are a number of central and south american species that this is true of, but the surinamensis are the biggest and among the brightest and most distinctly marked...

Basic rule of thumb; when you're not sure what species you're dealing with, don't freehandle it... This is doubly true when on vacation in the tropics.

 

[pitbulllady]

Tail-Vibrating Colubrids

The colubrids aren't mimicing rattlers when they vibrate their tails; as has been pointed out, many Asian species of colubrids, especially the Elaphe, vibrate their tails. On top of that, the rattlers and other pit vipers evolved much later than the colubrids, and are considered to be among the most advanced of snakes. The tail rattling of the Crotalids most likely evolved from that of the vipers from which they developed, which in turn has been passed down from the harmless species from which THEY evolved. The rattlers just take it one step further and have added an actual "noise maker" device: the rattle. They don't have to rely on vibrating the tail agains dry leaves or other substrate to maximize the sound. It's thought that they developed this in response to the large herds of Pleistocine hoofed mammals that roamed North America at the time. The loud rattle warned large herbivores not to trample the snake.

Sharon McKenzie

 

[snakegetters]

I think we still have specimens of Crotalus giganticus running around Orlando. At least I keep hearing about them over the phone. By the time I get to the scene, they have exercised a special morphological ability and shrunk to about 20% of their original reported length.

Another trick these guys pull on herpers a lot is to instantly swap places with the nearest garter snake or a rat snake. The people on the phone swear that the snake started out as a 20' rattler.

This is really an amazing ability on the part of C. giganticus. For some reason it has never been well studied or documented, possibly because this clever camoflauge reaction on the snake's part is inevitably triggered by the presence of a herpetologist.

Taking my tongue out of cheek, I have seen Micrurus surinamensis imported. Mario at Zoological Imports gave me one a few years back that wasn't doing so well. Unfortunately I was unable to save it.

 

[Vince]

many snakes "stand up" and raise there heads just like a cobra, just the other day a black racer got into my pool cage and stood up was hissing and twitching his tail as well. I think all of those things are just common amoung snakes. not a mimic. i dont belive there is a natural cobra species in the US. but due to the fact that we have nile monitors and green iggs all over the place here in florida, who know what others have established breeding populations.

 

[Sand&SunReptile]

I'd love to see a report of this come out. More of a historical, pre-european fossilization report. Do you know where you saw of the 6ft fossil, with fangs, and hooding capability. I'd love to read more about this. A very intiguing topic to say the least!

 

[urbanjungles]

Doubtful

Does anyone have a reference to this C gigantius?

I personally doubt anything like that exhisted, there's no way native American's would be able to impact a species in such as way as to make it completely disappear, especially without a trace. Mmore than likely some budding naturalists saw the huge EDB's of yesteryear and mistook them for another species.

Moreover, crotalids are perhaps the most advanced snakes in the world and are the most recent "kid on the block".

Danny M

 

[RNPreptiles]

My thoughts:

I dont think a cobra ever lived in the Americas. Cobras are very successful in their natural range and therefore I dont see one in America going extinct.

I think rattling of the tail evolved before the rattle. Think about it: why would a snake that was born with a rattle rattle its tail in the first place? They are unaware of the sound generated. I think the rattling of the tail is a twitching done out of fear. Since it helped may avoid predation through the noise generated, it lasted through generations. Then a rattle was developed, and this helped that snake scare off predators more easily, allowing it to develop into the many species of rattlesnake that there are today.

 

[hydrogen cricket]

Todd,

<b>I am not trying to knock you on this, but if hognoses and false water cobras are "trying" to mimic a cobra by flattening their necks, then what are cobras trying to mimic?</b> As Darrin said, those snakes flatten their necks for the same reason that a cobra does, to appear larger and more threatening.

As for rattling, colubrids are not trying to mimic rattlers. And colubrids are not the only snakes in North America that rattle their tails. Agkistrodons do it as well, and they have venom as potent as some of the rattlers. Also, many Asian species of Elaphe rattle their tails, and there are no species of rattlesnakes ever recorded to have lived anywhere outside of North and Central America. So what rattlesnakes are they mimicking?

Again, I think it is POSSIBLE that there could have been a large elapid living in the Western Hemisphere at some point, but without seeing anything more about the fossils in question, I'm feeling fairly skeptical at the moment. And oh yeah, I will have to look it up to be sure, but I think there is a species of South American Coral Snake that gets up to 5 feet long, so a large species similar to a coral is not out of the range of possibility.

have you actually thought about what you said??? it is natural for harmless or smaller creatures to mimic other creatures as a way to try to deter a would be predator. cobras don't mimic anything---it's a natural defensive posture that they adopt whenever they are facing something that they deem threatening.

for example, scarlet kingsnakes and coral snakes both look the same, and unless you are familiar with your snakes or have heard of the famous rhyme, then you won't be able to tell the difference between the two (most peeps would just think of it as the same snake but with different colours like with a leopard and panther). the reason that the scarlet adopts the same colours is so that predators would think that it is the venomous coral instead of being a harmless constrictor.

also, it could just be a natural "thing" that they do just like the cobras. it doesn't necessarily have to be mimicry.




hydrogen cricket.....

 

[RNPreptiles]

On the topic of kings and corals, there are a lot of tri color kings that live in areas where corals do not live now and were not known to live at any time. It is possible that they did live in these areas, but there is no direct evidence. If there isnt a coral now, how does a predator know that a king is a venomous snake? Bright colors normally serve as a warning, not always as a real one though. Many animals avoid brightly colored animals, others do not. For many predators, kings are vivid stand outs.

Thoughts on that?

 

[Seamus Haley]

have you actually thought about what you said??? it is natural for harmless or smaller creatures to mimic other creatures as a way to try to deter a would be predator.

Mimicry... be it batesian or mullerian and applying to either appearance, behavior or both simultaneously requires that the species which are potential mimics of one another evolve within an area wherein the populations overlap. While there are some examples of mimicry where the species are no longer found in overlaping ranges; in all such instances there is evidence that one species or the other migrated recently on an evolutionary scale.

Meaning, as was said before, it's not mimicry if there's nothing present to mimic. Tail rattling is seen in hundreds of species of snakes across the entire planet- they are NOT all mimics of north american rattlesnakes and, given the evidence and idea of pressures being required to actually produce a signifigant evolution within a species... Everything was rattling long before rattlers existed, much less had well developed rattles. Similarly there are hundreds of species that will puff up, flatten out or rise up when threatened with a potential predator... they are not all cobra mimics- it's either covergent evolution given the physical limitations of a snake's anatomy or the behavior is common in the animal's anscestry so far in the past that the common names and nomenclature for species presently alive is absolutely meaningless.

have heard of the famous rhyme, then you won't be able to tell the difference between the two

The rhyme is stupid and dangerous. Not only does it completely fail to apply to corals as far north as southern mexico based on the typical phenotype... there are plenty of examples of non-typical color and pattern anomalies in North American species that will cause they rhymes to incorectly identify any given animal someone may encounter... Melanistic corals aren't so uncommon as to make the rhyme safe to rely on and there are many completely harmless kings, milks and scarlet snakes that get smacked in half with a gardening tool because some nitwit thought they were a coral. The best and really only safe phrase to pound into people's heads is "If you don't know what it is, either leave it alone or treat it as capable of envenomation."

Furthermore, the idea of looking stritcly at north american corals and the nonvenomous but similarly patterned harmless species doesn't address the idea of what is mimicing what and why at ALL. All these species can be traced back to the tropics if you go far enough back- an area containing a LOT more snakes with similar patterns. Given that corals (as a loose rule) are capable of delivering a lethal envenomation to anything which would normally consider them a potential food source the only "learning to avoid those colors and patterns" which could be done is on a genetic scale within the potential predator species... eventually anything which is inclined to try feeding on those patterns won't be around to breed... but there are literally dozens of similarly patterned rear fanged colubrid species which live in ranges overlaping those of both corals and completely nonvenomous colubrids. A potential predator which attempts to eat one of THOSE gets a very painful but nonlethal envenomation and can learn on an individual scale to avoid that appearance. Plus, despite the bright colors, these snakes are nearly invisible when sitting in the spotty light and leaf detritus and braken that they'd normally be found in and there's a fun visual effect when they move, makes it hard to follow with the eye.

My point being... Your extreme oversimplification (I've simplified the whole thing too but yours was... deficient) kind of proves that you're ignorant of the subject. Correcting Rob- a man who is not ignorant of the subject at all- when you yourself are lacking knowledge is kind of crass and makes you come across a bit like an imbecile.

 

[hydrogen cricket]

oh really?! and what you said just makes you more of an asshole than i thought you were!!!