NOt trying to make anyone mad

[houdini1]

This was posted on another forum, We are trying to discredit sand over there for new leo owners. I told him to bring his thread here but he wont do it. The following below is what has been said. I need everyones input here. I will post my thread as a reply.
Kristy






just to end all the stupidity surrounding sand. I would like to provide evidence to the fact that they do live on sand in the wild. please visit this link Link and type in region code PA1307

now this post does not condone the use of sand as a substrate in captivity as most herp keepers have no clue how to properly care for their animals. But i just thought i would end all the BS surrounding leos living on sand in the wild.



03/09/06 08:51am

#684209


Geckofanatic
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684197



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



It doesnt matter it can still kill them so people will still advise against it



03/09/06 09:46am

#684217


TEK9
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Message To: Geckofanatic In reference to Message Id: 684209



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



yeah except its people and improper conditions that kill them not the sand



03/09/06 10:03am

#684218


LGL
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684197



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



Actually, Leos live in desert shrub lands. They live on clay and rocks, not sand.

LGL



03/09/06 10:06am

#684220


LGL
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684217



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



The sand impacts (clogs) their system causing blockage to the degetive system. They can’t go to the bathroom, so it just stays in the stomach. Pretty soon they can’t eat because there’s no more room. They also get dehydrated. They usually die from it. And yes, it is the sand that causes all of this to happen and that eventually kills them.

LGL



03/09/06 10:09am

#684224


Lotus
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Message To: LGL In reference to Message Id: 684220



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



And even if a few do venture into sand in the wild, who’s to say it won’t hurt them? Things in the wild can hurt animals. predators, starvation, and in the leo’s case, sand, should it for some reason end up living on it. :/

Whenwe keep an animal in captivity, we try to remove any threats they may encounter in the wild. This includes innapropriate substrate.



03/09/06 10:14am

#684231


TEK9
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Message To: Lotus In reference to Message Id: 684224



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



If they did die in the wild from impaction it would once again be from dehydration which also causes impaction in captivity, remember it is the desert and there is water shortage there and they do live on sand and clay and rocks and shrub lands in the summer months when it comes back to life after the rainy season , they live in humid rock caves on sandy deserts



03/09/06 10:33am

#684237


TEK9
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684231



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



go to the first link and type in this numbe pa1326 thats where the pet trade leopard gecko comes from, E.macularis



03/09/06 10:44am

#684250


TEK9
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684237



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



the soil composition of most xeric shrublands is roughly 60% clay, 40% sand (usually not quartz based but rather eroded soft stone ) with a top layer of large rocks and pebbles scattered throughout the sandy top layer.



03/09/06 11:03am

#684256


Biggiy05
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684237



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



I am going to say this once and then have Doug the webmaster remove this thread because it is only going to turn into one big fight.

Leopard geckos do not live on sand. They are from the Pakistan area, it is not the sahara desert just like Iraq is not covered in sand like people tend to think. There are small areas of sand but the majority of the ground they live on is harden clay and rock.

A leopard gecko CAN and WILL die from sand impaction. They lick their surroundings and that includes the ground. Doing that all the time adds more sand to the stomach thus clogging it. They do not live very long in the wild but can live up to 20-25 years in captivity.



03/09/06 11:12am

#684267


TEK9
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Message To: Biggiy05 In reference to Message Id: 684256



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



your way off if you know anything about geology you should know that it is nearly impossible for an area to be rocky and to not have some form of sand present, i never once said that leopard geckos live in the sahara desert and if you too ignorant to look at the facts presented you have no right to give information out, which i might add is wrong.

The reason why animals die of impaction (constipation in humans) reptiles,mammals, birds and basically any other vertebrate is through lack of of adequate hydration which allows the digestive system to properly process food and anything else ingested, the reason why leopard geckos dont live long in the wild is because they are eaten by predators, they dont have enough places to hide during the heat of the day and they kill each other through competition to breed and territorial disputes.

And running to a webmaster to close down a thread because it might prove some of you people wrong is a cowardly and unjust thing to do, people deserve to know the underlying (REAL) causes of impaction whether you like it or not.



03/09/06 11:26am

#684313


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684267



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



TEK9, I use to think you were ok, but you’re just proving yourself to be a childish little punk. We’re not closing this thread because it ’proves us wrong’. Our egos aren’t that big, and the best part of this is, YOU THINK YOU’RE RIGHT! YOU’RE NOT. Leopard geckos, as a collective whole, DO NOT LIVE ON SAND. YES, SOME OF THEM WILL VENTURE ONTO IT, BUT THE MAJORITY OF LEOPARD GECKOS WILL NEVER SEE SAND IN THEIR ENTIRE LIFETIME. Watch Crocodile Hunter or Animal Planet in general every once in a while. And yes, it is sand that causes impaction, and the dehydration stems from impaction, which stems from stupidity and irresponsibility in ownership. I’m not going to argue with you anymore, because I’m not going to stoop to your level of immaturity.



03/09/06 12:28pm

#684357


TEK9
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Message To: NinjaTurtle In reference to Message Id: 684313



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



your the childish ones closing down a thread which had the sole purpose of providing information for ignorant people who think they know everything rather than base their opinion on SCIENCE not somebody out to make a profit off of an animal which includes breeders, pet stores any anybody else out there trying to make a buck off of some poor idiot. Obviously everybody on here is a child brainwashed by the pet trade into thinking what is right and wrong, this little bit of information could have probably saved some animals lives but pig headed stubborness prevails and nobody accepts the fact that people are killing their animals and not sand. You wonder why herpers have problems with the government and animal welfare agencies its because ignorant people choose to not address health and care problems in their animals and leave it all up to vets and rescue workers to bear the brunt of ignorance. People always complain about vets making them feel stupid well maybe you all are.

NOW CLOSE MY THREAD AND PROVE IGNORANCE AND CENSORSHIP PREVAILS.



03/09/06 01:01pm

#684360


Jal91
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Message To: NinjaTurtle In reference to Message Id: 684313



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



Like I posted in the other thread, I want TEK9 to answer a simple question:
It doesnt matter how the gecko gets it in its system, or anything else. The fact here is SAND CAUSES IMPACTION. He has been arguing that it could be the gecko eating the sand because it has the calcium, but yet it still causes the impaction.

Now all I have to say is shutup fugwad and answer this question.


TEK9, does sand cause impaction?

-john.



03/09/06 01:02pm

#684364


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684357



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



Could have saved some animals? Ok, tell me this... How come I and anyone else that uses them haven’t lost one leo to paper towels, yet people lose leos everyday because they had them on sand? I just totally DEMOLISHED your last thread, because you’re a freaking idiot. How old are you? 11? 12? That’s what I thought. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.



03/09/06 01:05pm

#684371


Houdini1
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Message To: NinjaTurtle In reference to Message Id: 684364



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



Tek 9 can I have your permission to take your thread to another forum and see what they say?



03/09/06 01:11pm

#684374


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684371



LEOPARD GECKOS LIVE ON SAND



You don’t need his permission, there’s no copyright on it. Do it.

 

[houdini1]

My thread

This is what sand can do, Heres the link that I posted http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/reptile/PhotoAlbum181.html



Here is a link, not for the weak stomach, this is what can and most likely will happen if you keep your leo on sand. It does cause impaction. Click for larger pics.
Link



03/09/06 12:30pm

#684330


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684317



This is what sand can do



Thank you for posting this, Houdini. I mean, I don’t like looking at it, but maybe it will get some of the new guys to stop defending sand.



03/09/06 12:39pm

#684331


Camo_pants
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684317



This is what sand can do



so glad I don’t use it anymore
If that happened to my leo I could never forgive myself



03/09/06 12:39pm

#684332


Witch
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684317



This is what sand can do



That’s sick!
I don’t know whether I’m more upset that the Leo died or angry because someone let that happen!



03/09/06 12:40pm

#684337


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: Witch In reference to Message Id: 684332



This is what sand can do



Both! Even if (yes, this will be a potshot at TEK9’s new thread) they ’do live on sand in the wild, derrrrrrrrr’ why would you want conditions that kill leos young than a condition that will help them live their life to the fullest? Honestly, why risk it?



03/09/06 12:43pm

#684338


Houdini1
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Message To: Witch In reference to Message Id: 684332



This is what sand can do



Witch,
I know it pisses me off. For the same reasons. Thats why i spent about 6 to 8 months reading about leos on different forums before I went out and got mine. Its sad that people would risk an animals life just so their tank will look cool.
Kristy



03/09/06 12:43pm

#684339


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684338



This is what sand can do



And that petstores will recommend it just to make a buck or two.



03/09/06 12:45pm

#684343


TEK9
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Message To: Witch In reference to Message Id: 684332



This is what sand can do



wheres the information all I see is a impacted leo with no clinical information, anybody can find pictures of anything, sand isn’t a good substrate but the gecko obviously had some other problem which caused the impaction (which is a symptom not a disease) there is always an underlying cause i.e dehydration or mineral deficiencies. In this case it looks like both, calci-sand encourages reptiles to ingest it to get needed nutrients when deprived by there owners. I think owners need to take responsibility for their actions rather than blame a product for killing their animals.



03/09/06 12:49pm

#684344


Houdini1
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Message To: NinjaTurtle In reference to Message Id: 684339



This is what sand can do



NOthing against tek9s thread but some leos will encounter sand in the wild, sand is not their natural substrate. In captivity sand is proven to cuase impaction. People, new leo owners, and experienced, need to know what can happen and how to avoid it. I just wanted to post some proof.



03/09/06 12:49pm

#684346


TEK9
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684343



This is what sand can do



is a necropsy report available? or was this a home dissection?



03/09/06 12:50pm

#684347


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684343



This is what sand can do



A CONDITION??? WHAT CONDITION WOULD CAUSE A LEO TO EAT SAND? GO AHEAD, DO RESEARCH, AND FIND A CONDITION THAT WOULD CAUSE A LEO TO EAT IT’S SAND. ADMIT THAT YOU’RE WRONG, ADMIT THAT SAND IS BAD, BECAUSE YOU WILL NEVER WIN THIS ARGUMENT.



03/09/06 12:51pm

#684348


Houdini1
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684344



This is what sand can do



Tek9 the impaction causes the dehydration because they cannot further digest anything once they are impacted. So they cannot keep themselves hydrated. Go to faunaclassifeds and post your thread there they will tell you the same thing. Along with many other forums.



03/09/06 12:53pm

#684349


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684346



This is what sand can do



Do you REALLY need a necropsy report to find out what killed it? It’s pretty freakin obvious- look at the x-rays, look at the leos vent, tail size, etc, and it’ll be pretty freakin obvious what killed it. Also, what makes you think DEHYDRATION, OF ALL THINGS IN THE HISTORY OF STUPID THINGS YOU’VE SAID, WOULD CAUSE A LEO TO EAT IT’S SAND? Is the sand wet? Does the leo think it’s swimming when it’s on sand?



03/09/06 12:53pm

#684350


Houdini1
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684346



This is what sand can do



It was done by a vet, look him up and call him.



03/09/06 12:54pm

#684355


Jal91
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Message To: NinjaTurtle In reference to Message Id: 684347



This is what sand can do



TEK9, your a moron. Its simple, A gecko can get sand while hunting, licking around its tank, or by you being a dumba.. and trying to get people to think that sand is okay for their leos.

Please answer this question so that EVERYONE can read it:

TEK9, does sand cause impaction?


ok, now lets see what he says to that simple question, thats all there is too it.

-john.



03/09/06 12:59pm

#684356


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684350



This is what sand can do



As far as your ’mineral deficiency’ argument, Tek9, calci-sand is made out of calcite, which is a fake version of calcium. Calcite comes from an organism in the sea, and it has no nutritional value whatsoever. So mineral deficiency is a bunch of poop.



03/09/06 12:59pm

#684359


Witch
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Message To: Houdini1 In reference to Message Id: 684350



This is what sand can do



Okay i’ve decided, i’m upset but i’m even more ANGRY THAT PEOPLE ARE STILL TRYING TO ARGUE A CASE THAT SAND IS OKAY!!!



03/09/06 01:02pm

#684362


TEK9
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Message To: NinjaTurtle In reference to Message Id: 684356



This is what sand can do



exactly a fake form of calcium which the animal ingests thinking its gonna help it but it does nothing leading to an endless circle of ingestion, impaction is a symptom not a disease



03/09/06 01:03pm

#684367


Jal91
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684362



This is what sand can do



A symptom of what? Impaction is impaction.



03/09/06 01:08pm

#684368


NinjaTurtle
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Message To: TEK9 In reference to Message Id: 684362



This is what sand can do



How does the animal thinking that the calcite is real prove it’s a condition? I highly doubt a leo knows what calcium is, much less whether it could tell the difference between calcite and calcium. So, therefore, what condition is it? Find me a medical term and definition for the condition, and MAYBE I’ll think your way. Is the leo retarded? Or does it simply not know any better? Are you telling me my leos have some sort of condition, because my leos are 100% healthy and they still lick their paper towels? Several times I’ve caught them licking their paper towels, testing what the substrate is, and they haven’t died from it. They have everything they need- calcium, vitamins, water, hides, heat... so what condition could my leos possibly have that makes them lick their paper towels? What condition could a leo have that could make it want to see what it’s substrate it? It’s the same with humans, if we don’t know what something feels like, we touch it. Can it be harmful to us? Very much so, but can it also be good for us? Yes. It can.
Tek9, you’ve used up your bag of feeble argument, why are you still trying? We’ve won, you’ve lost because with every post you make yourself sound stupider.



03/09/06 01:09pm

 

[nicolai]

I dont and havent used sand for any of my leos, Just the chance of it impacting a leo isn't worth the chance of me loosing one of mine. Besides, there are so many other substrates out there that are easier to clean up after and more asthetically pleasing then sand. Why would you want to put your leo in a position where it might or might not affect his health??

 

[Ian S.]

OMG!! Just let him to keep his on sand thats all. Oh Yeah also let him know that we as humans walk/live on sand and dirt as well.
CHOW DOWN PRETTY BOY!!! "hows that for some BS"

 

[Ian S.]

"exactly a fake form of calcium which the animal ingests thinking its gonna help it but it does nothing leading to an endless circle of ingestion, impaction is a symptom not a disease"

Impaction was the cause of death, it's clear as day but.....maybe we should get a second opinion . Symptoms would show for the impaction. Sheesh I'm not selling this dude or dudette a leo thats for sure.

 

[The NY Gecko]

is this from a forum called repticzone? i knowa LGL fro mthere. they tore me up for using sand awhile ago. ive lsot my respect for just about everyone there

 

[BalloonzForU]

That's about as bad as this post I saw on another forum. I made the part bold that really got me POed. Yeah he didn't think at all.

i have been using regular palyground sand for 3 years now. my big guy is the only one left, i had 2 females that died rather young, i dont think it was the sand., the one had a piece of unpeeled skin on her face that i couldnt get off. i tried everything i could think of, still no luck. the second one just stopped eating, but was still pooping, so i think her pipees were clear. i think the sand is ok, but if it sounds like thats the problem than i might change it. any suggestions???

 

[houdini1]

not trying to make anyone mad

is this from a forum called repticzone? i knowa LGL fro mthere. they tore me up for using sand awhile ago. ive lsot my respect for just about everyone there

Yep, Things are starting to quiet down over there now. It was a pretty heated conversation. I think everyone was getting along last time I checked. I just wanted everyones input from here on sublect because as far as I am concerned if i have questions I am coming here. All of you are very respectable people who love your animals and have years some with decades of experience so I know I am getting the best info. And I have seen some of everyones animals here, they have all been top notch healthy animals.
Kristy

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

This question popped up on my boards a fair bit for a while there, here's my answer as I posted it over on my site...

**************************************************

Been seeing alot of this pop up on other boards as of late...

Calcisand has been touted as a suitable substrate for keeping you herps on. More so, its been said to be beneficial cause if your herp needs calcium, it can digest the sand and supplement its intake with the calcium in the sand.

Ok.... this is just me, though many people share this opinion....

Sand, or any particle substrate can cause impaction. You may go a lifetime and own many herps and never ever have this problem. BUT... it is a chance that it could happen. Why take that chance when there are so many other safer alternatives out there??

Any non particle substrate is a better choice, repticarpet, shelf liner, tile, even run of the mill every day paper towel are all safer choices, and many of these choices are superior in other ways, easy to clean, attractive, good heat management just to name a few....

I have said before, that using calcisand is like playing Russian roulette, why on earth would you even chance having your herps suffer through a problem such as impaction if you could avoid it.

Here are a couple of links of interest...

http://www.pythons.com/calcium.html

http://www.anapsid.org/substrates.html

And a reprint of an interesting article on the topic....

Impaction in Lizards & Tortoises

This is a very commonly discussed topic and there seems to be lots of conflicting advise out there about why it happens. I hope this text will help clear up a few misconceptions and allow people to see why lizards/tortoises become impacted, ways in which we can prevent such problems occurring in the future and the basics of treating such cases should they arise.

This is about impaction but since the most common form of impaction is substrate ingestion & subsequent build up of this in the gut, this is also to a large extent about what substrates are appropriate to what species. The thing that seems to strike people as strange is that one breeder will use a substrate for years and years and never get a problem with it whilst someone else will swear to you that this same substrate is going to cause your lizard/tortoise impaction and you should never use it. This tells us that whilst the substrate type is obviously important it is by no means the only factor involved.

Underlying factors associated with impaction

Calcium Metabolism
By far the commonest underlying cause to impactions I see at my clinics is calcium deficiency. Proper bowel function relies on both smooth muscle contraction in the gut itself and on the animal using it’s skeletal muscles to aid in food passage through the system. Both types of muscle are severely compromised in their function under conditions of hypocalcaemia(Low calcium levels) and a lethargic animal who is failing to pass even normal food material is a common enough initial presentation in cases where owners have failed to provide the three things necessary to good calcium metabolism ie lots of UVB, lots of calcium and enough vitamin D. This topic is discussed at length in other texts and on the various web sites at www.herplife.co.uk. More often than not, cases that present in this way are on some calcium regime or they would have showed more acute problems of failure to grow and collapse before they show the signs of impaction. Thus many people are adamant that it can’t possibly be calcium and it’s only when presented with a skeletal xray they can see how little bone calcium reserves there are that they can see where their regime has not been good enough. Please be religious with your supplementing and UV lighting as this is still by far the most common overall lizard problem vets are presented with, especially in fast growing diurnal lizards such as Agamas etc.

Temperatures
In most species this is taken as the basking area temperature rather than just the ambient. Temperature has a direct effect on the ability of the bowel to digest food material and also bowel motility & function is compromised in times of inadequate heat. Individuals kept at the lower end of their temperature range are thus more susceptible to impaction than similarly fed reptiles kept at higher temperatures.

Substrate type
What the substrate is in terms of wood/mineral type is unimportant. The important thing this is it’s digestibility. Most commonly used substrate materials are simply not broken down at all during their passage through the digestive tract and in this sense they are all equally as bad as each other. The difference between say normal quartz sand, gravel, hemp, corn cob, beach etc is negligible in relation to the type as they are all indigestible materials. Substrates like calci-sand that is broken down as it is in large part water soluble are far less likely to cause impaction. Thus arguments on say corn cob vs beach chip should focus on the other factors listed(especially particle size) rather than the actual wood type as this is relatively unimportant.

Hydration Status
Many reptiles live their life in some minor degree of dehydration in the sense that they are conserving water. This is less often the case in captivity as the supply of water is usually more closely regulated than it might be in the wild where it may not rain for several months. However animals that are not provided with adequate water supply in an appropriate way will produce less digestive ‘juices’ and have less bowel lubricants making them more prone to impaction. The most common case of this I see is Chameleons that are not sprayed enough, the owner assuming a new animal knows where the water bowl is on the vivarium floor.

Particle size in relation to the size of the lizard
This may seem obvious, but it is the size of the particle that the animal digests in relation to the size of it’s digestive tract at it’s narrowest points which is the key here. Most impactions occur when the stomach fills up and the animal is unable to digest the material or pass it out of the stomach. Some impactions occur further down the tract where the dry material simply will not move along the digestive tract and pass out of the body. The fact that impactions are more commonly the result of at least several small individual particles causing a blockage shows that this is rarely the sole factor, but in the case of say a reptile eating a large stone or similar it can be the sole factor.

A specific problem occurs in vegetarian reptiles such as Iguanas,tortoises etc where the particle size is crucial. If you chop up the food very finely then that is ok as the particles are small enough to allow digestion. Not chopping it up at all leaves large pieces which is also ok as the reptile breaks off pieces of a suitable size for it to digest. The problem comes when material is cut to a size which is big enough they can swallow, but much bigger than they would usually eat. This intermediate size of usually root vegetables such as carrot, turnip but also cabbage and other foodstuffs of similar consistency can not be digested in the stomach and soon leads to impacted bloat and death. Thus the relationship between impaction and particle size is not always as straightforward as you might think.

Feeding techniques
By this I mean that lizards that are hand fed such as on tongs or who are taken out their cages to feed in a separate container are very much less likely to become impacted as most substrate ingestion is associated with food intake. In very active feeders like Bearded Dragons I would always recommend feeding in a separate container if keeping on a large substrate particle size as this will avoid inappropriate substrate ingestion. When kept on say Calci-sand, Gold-chip or similar small particle size substrate this is less important. Feeding arboreal species on the ground is not only wasteful in terms of % of livefood eaten, but also allows for substrate ingestion. Feeding lizards like Chameleons by allowing livefood to climb on the branches is a way of all by preventing such problems in these arboreal species.

Feeding Schedules
By this I mean the feeding interval ie how often you choose to feed your lizard. Most lizards can be fed on any number of regimes and will eat more on the days they are fed to compensate for the days when they aren’t. In many cases every other day feeding may be good for digestion and stop problems with obesity and individuals that only pick certain food items out a mixed diet if fed ad-lib. However, lizards fed ad-lib each day tend to be less aggressive in their feeding and thus pick of the prey item more accurately than one that is fed every few days and has a feeding frenzy in which anything near livefood is also ingested. Similarly plant eaters such as Uromastyx/tortoises will ,if allowed to go hungry, often eat the substrate to a greater level that if fed on an intermittent basis.

Treatments

These boil down to two methods really:

Medical treatments: this involves
a) Treating any underlying causes such as calcium deficiency, temperatures etc
b) Hydrating the animal: Many lizards/tortoises die of impaction because they become dehydrated. This hydration can not be done orally as this route is the cause of the problems. Most commonly the easiest way to give fluids is for a vet to give fluids into the body cavity on a daily or every other day basis.
c) Lubrication: The use of oral liquid praffin(at say ½ ml/100g of reptile twice daily for 3-4 days) may help lubricate the passage of the impacted material. This works best with many small particles rather than say just one large piece, but is worth considering in all cases.
D) Antibiotic cover: I would always recommend that such cases be started on antibiotics, but only once fluids have also been started, or they can potentially build up to toxic levels in the dehydrated reptile.
Surgical intervention: this involves the vet opening up the animals body cavity and physically removing the impacted material. This is easiest performed on larger lizards, the smaller the lizard, the more difficult the surgery. In many cases reptiles are too weak to consider an anaesthetic and medical treatment is started initially, most importantly the rehydration and antibiotic regimes. The aim is to either allow it to work medically as above or at least make the reptile a better candidate for surgery.

Either way this is never an easy thing to treat and many cases don’t make it. Early identification is the key and unfortunately to a large extent this comes with experience. Practically without fail the problem is not just the type of substrate used but is the result of several factors working together in an unfortunate way.


Bottom line is your herp can't chose its own home, its up to you to do so, why not make it the safest home you can?

 

[Junkyard]

A long time ago I had an issue with a bearded dragon. He was kept on sand for a long time and never had a problem. I switched out his substrate with a large pellet sand that many many others use and I was told it was better for the bearded anyway. To shorten the story, he started to eat the new substrate, impaction and death. I looked at the substrate and realized it was the same size and color as his food pellets....I was not a happy camper when I figured out what I had done.

 

[hill4803]

OHHH,the sand substrate issue,my favorite! Where is Gregg?

I have kept leos on sand for many years, never any issues. The only reason I don't keep them on it now is because I don't want the sand on the new carpet in my new house. Sand is easier to clean and more aesthetic. If used properly, sand is NOT a problem. Husbandry issues should be closely monitored: temps, plenty of fresh(clean) water, plenty of calcium, a separate feeding dish (I used the calcium dish for feeding too) & plenty of hides. A couple of pics:

And sand is part of the leos natural habitat, that sand gets EVERYWHERE. They hide between the crevices in the rocks and dig out little areas for hiding and egglaying.

 

[CrazyRhacos]

I dont know what the hole hype os over the sand deal..they live in a sandy area..yes its hard clay..but dust dirt...theirs sand everywere....my cousains had his male leo on sand for about 10 years never a problem..i keep my male on a sand/bed a beast mix.lookes better..smells better..and hes fine...people just make it something bigger then what it really is.Just my thought.

i dont keep my females on it...because their much brighter on paper towels.

 

[The NY Gecko]

i stopped using it because of the nuisance it became to clean. it does get EVERYWHERE.

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

I stopped using it because of the chance, slight or not, that impaction COULD occour. Now I realize that there have been cases of impaction from food items, but hey, you HAVE to feed them, you don't HAVE to keep them on sand.... for me its as simple as that.

Like I said in my post though, I know many people who do keep, and have kept, their animals on sand with no problems, and if it works for you, all the power to you. Its just not something I want to shag around with!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I HATE substrate wars, and I usually do not reply to them. I would, however, like to point out something important specifically about calci-sand.

Calci-sand is made from calcium carbonate... the same stuff we dust feeders with. BUT!!! The powdered variety is very fine and is made to be absorbed quickly. Calcium sand is in larger particles and is appropriate for some reptiles, but not a good choice for Leopard Geckos. Why?

Well, Leos have a very short G.I. system, and calcium sand does not stay in the digestive system of a leo long enough for it to break down and dissolve. Instead, it gets sticky and clumps together... causing impaction.

Second, calcium carbonate is the main ingredient in Tums and Rolaids, which are anti-acids. They reduce the secretion of gastric juices, which are needed to digest food. Now, if a leopard gecko has a short G.I. system, then the chronic ingestion of calcium carbonate while striking at prey will fill it's entire system with it. This leads to incomplete break-down and digestion of food, which can also contribute to impaction.

I feel that ultra-fine, smooth polished sand is probably OK to use for full-grown geckos, but certainly not appropriate for babies and juvies under 30 grams. But why risk the change of impaction when there is great looking tiles and slate that can be aesthetically pleasing and safe to use?

 

[dragonflame]

The main problem I have with that thread is that most people called the "sand protector" a moron or idiot on several occasions. There weren't many attempts to calmly explain their point of view (which is a LOT easier to do on the internet vs. in person) even if this person was being rude in the first place. This person is going to fight for what they believe because they were being bashed and they protected themselves. The post that particularly disturbed me was yelling telling them they were too young to be posting something like that and calling them stupid. I would not listen to someone who disrespected me in that way, and making it look like it was because I was one of the younger ones on the forum. Young people like myself are very defensive in some cases when threatened! I hope this doesn't happen here.

 

[houdini1]

not trying to make anyone mad

it got really nasty over there, the person who started the thread was accusing me of calling him names, which i didn't, I totally agree with you on the name calling thing its disrespectfull. He was so mad he couldn't even get his point across. i ended up talking to this guy when it was all over and he was really upset that it blew up the way it did. I guess what he was really trying to say was that leos do somewhat live on sand in the wild, He wasn't saying trying to say that sand was good in captivity, he doesn't even use it himself. I think it got wat out of hand before he got the chance to explain himself. Thats why I asked him if i could bring it over here to get input from everyone becuase I knew it wouldn't turn out that way over here and he could could some real insight on it and some good opinions instead of a war over it. I actually felt bad for him in the end because he was so frustrated, I guess he just wasn't very clear in his original post.

 

[Ian S.]

I stopped using sand when I noticed a slight case of fatal impactions occurring to my leos and beardies. Babies and juvies alike, even though all my geckos were kept at 85-90 degrees, had fecals done regularly, were weekly weighed, panacured, and from time to time given flagyl, had fresh food, water, & calcium in dishes. Must have been something wrong. I'm thrilled that there are people who have successfully kept leos on sand. As a matter of fact I have a tremper albino thats 6 1/2 yrs. old that I kept on sand for a year and was previously kept on sand for 3 yrs by it's previous owner. Well I really do hate to introduce my sadistic sarcastic ways to this thread, but if you'll excuse me, my wife and I are both deathly allergic to penicillin so I'm gonna go feed some to the kids and see who reacts. I'll be right back!!!!

 

[Ian S.]

ok!! that went well. For my next trick!!

 

[Ian S.]

The main problem I have with that thread is that most people called the "sand protector" a moron or idiot on several occasions. There weren't many attempts to calmly explain their point of view (which is a LOT easier to do on the internet vs. in person) even if this person was being rude in the first place. This person is going to fight for what they believe because they were being bashed and they protected themselves. The post that particularly disturbed me was yelling telling them they were too young to be posting something like that and calling them stupid. I would not listen to someone who disrespected me in that way, and making it look like it was because I was one of the younger ones on the forum. Young people like myself are very defensive in some cases when threatened! I hope this doesn't happen here.

I understand your point to it's fullest. Name calling is not usually my forte' either and I do apologise. I do find it irritating when cataclysmic events take place do to sheer ignorance & stubbornness.