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Bowgod34

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Thanks for the help on my other thread, between that thread, and countless hours of reading I'm starting to feel like I'm back in the loop. I still can't believe the huge leaps forward people have made with boas since I had to step away. But at least now I'm starting to understand it all, and I'm remembering a lot of what I forgot.
My math is rusty, but I've made up my mind which direction I want to go for right now.
My first project investment is going to be as follows
1.0 albino jungle
0.1 hypo jungle 100% het albino

Seems like this pairing is going to offer me quite a few possibilities into lines that most interest me. My problem is I'm lost in the math. Last time I bred boas the only genetics that were available to the public were simple recessive genes, and real easy to figure out. Now days with the complex genetics I'm running a little slow putting it all together.

if someone would be kind enough to break down this pairing, and help explain what the theoretical outcome of the breeding would be in a best case scenario I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks
Dave.
 
I'm going to give this a shot...

Starting with the albino recessive genes there are 2 combos, so you would get 1/2 het albino and 1/2 albino.

Now add the codominate jungle gene from the male, which will halve the above numbers for a total of 4 combos. 1/2 will be jungles, so you get 1/4 het albino, 1/4 albino, 1/4 jungles het albino, and 1/4 albino jungles.

Adding the jungle gene from the female adds super jungles and doubles the number of single gene jungles to the previous numbers for 6 combos out of 8 offspring. So, 1/8 are het albino, 1/8 are albino, 2/8 jungles het albino, 2/8 albino jungles, 1/8 het albino super jungles, and 1/8 albino super jungles.

Now add the codominate hypo gene from the female to halve those numbers and you get 12 combos from 16 offspring: 1/16 het albino, 1/16 albino, 2/16 jungle het albino, 2/16 albino jungles, 1/16 het albino super jungles, 1/16 albino super jungles, 1/16 hypo het albino, 1/16 hypo albino (sunglows), 2/16 hypo jungle het albino, 2/16 hypo albino jungles (sunglow jungles), 1/16 hypo het albino super jungles, and 1/16 hypo albino super jungles (sunglow super jungles).

If you want to lay it out in a Punnett square, the male contributes 2 genes - albino and albino jungle. The female contributes 8 genes - normal, jungle, hypo, hypo jungle, het albino, het albino jungle, het albino hypo, and het albino hypo jungle.

If you want to do it the easy way, there is a calculator available (or at least it was a year ago) from Marshall Lionti at Signature Snakes.
 
It's been my experience that you can't really put the numbers together like that with accuracy. Starting with the Albino and Het Albino, statistically you'll get ½ a litter of Albinos. This you can pretty much count on.

Then the (Dominant) Hypo from mom will hit randomly about ½ the litter, but you have no way of telling which animals got it until they're born, so you have just as much chance none of the albinos get the hypo gene as you do them getting it. It's 50/50 chance per offspring, not 50% of the litter. You may get more then half, or less then.

I think the Jungle will work the same way as the Hypo, except both parents have the gene, so the odds are greater of the offspring getting the gene, and the ones that do get it will be possible super Jungle.

Punnett squares offer a statistical probability, but they have rarely hit for me. Usually I get more or less then the numbers say, and often not even close to the percentages offered. Nature does what nature does.

Possibilities for this litter in my mind would be, Normal Het Albino, Hypo Het Albino (DH Sunglow), Jungle Het albino (DH Albino Jungle), Albinos, Sunglows and Jungleglows. All Jungles being possibly Super whether paired with another gene or not.

(doing this in my head again, and it's early, so I could be off a bit)
 
Very true. Rereading my post I did appear to be saying you would get those particular offspring. I did assume that everyone knows this is only statistcally speaking.

So to make it clear, my statements were based on a Punnet square which only shows the possible outcomes and the probability of each specific combo. Of course the litter could range all the way from the extremes of all normals het albino to the other end being all super jungle sunglows, or more accurately as Rich pointed out, possible super jungle sunglows.

I knew I would miss something in trying to convey the math in writing.
 
zn394 said:
Very true. Rereading my post I did appear to be saying you would get those particular offspring. I did assume that everyone knows this is only statistcally speaking.

So to make it clear, my statements were based on a Punnet square which only shows the possible outcomes and the probability of each specific combo. Of course the litter could range all the way from the extremes of all normals het albino to the other end being all super jungle sunglows, or more accurately as Rich pointed out, possible super jungle sunglows.

I knew I would miss something in trying to convey the math in writing.
Click to expand...



Yeah I know that they're all hypothetical numbers that's why in the original post I said "best case scenario."

I've been keeping, and breeding snakes mostly boids since I was 5 years old helping my dad. But about 10 years ago I was forced to step away to focus on other aspirations. In those 10 years boa genetics have advanced by leaps, and bounds. So rather than just jumping back in I've had to stop, and brush up on my knowledge, and get a grasp on all the new info that's out there now.
I was just having trouble doing the math (probably because my brain is on information overload)
To top it off I'm running out of time to get in on this season so my head has been spinning for days now. But I've finally made up my mind as to the direction I'm going to start. It's a nice pairing for me because it basically covers every visual trait that interests me. So reguardless of how the numbers fall I will definitely get a few of what I want. Outside of what I can possibly produce with this pairing the only other thing that interest nbw would be different variations of jungle motleys,but i'll work on that next season. It's going to be hard enough to try and get 1 litter this season so I'm not going to be greedy.

Thanks for all the help, and keep your eye out once I get to producing. I've been known to turn out some great looking animals in my day. I'm one of the pickiest people around when it comes to choosing my breeders, and the offspring generally shows it. I may not produce the most offspring every year, but strive to have some of the best looking.

Either way I'm just exited to be back!
 
I'll definitely take quality over quantity any day.

One thing I'm not sure if you came across or not in your research or not is the weak genes in the super jungle. When they were first being produced they were dying within the first year or so I believe, for no apparent reason. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. There are some adult super jungles now (not sure if it's from outcrossing into stronger genes or what). I don't believe there has been a male super jungle to reproduce yet. There's only one female super jungle that has reproduced (again, someone correct me if I'm wrong) and she either had a very tiny litter, or a bunch of slugs (can't remember exactly). There was only one healthy baby, and it's a jungle.

Just something to keep in mind. You may want to do some more research on the super jungles before you jump into producing them. Also, the same thing goes with super motleys. I don't think any of those have lived yet (except maybe some central american super motleys).

Oh, and I don't think you will get any possible super jungles. IMO, I think a super jungle is very distinguishable from a normal jungle. Best of luck!!
 
RachelsBoa said:
One thing I'm not sure if you came across or not in your research or not is the weak genes in the super jungle. When they were first being produced they were dying within the first year or so I believe, for no apparent reason. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

I only remember hearing that about super motleys (that they typically don't live long); only thing I'd heard about the super jungles is that they were thought to be sterlile since no viable litters have yet to be produced from a super. I could be wrong of course!
 
AbsoluteApril said:
I only remember hearing that about super motleys (that they typically don't live long); only thing I'd heard about the super jungles is that they were thought to be sterlile since no viable litters have yet to be produced from a super. I could be wrong of course!
Click to expand...

Yes, super jungles are ok to produce. Some owners have just fed them smaller than normal meals into adulthood. Also, Rachel is correct in the litter from the super jungle female. I want to produce a super jungle even if they cant reproduce. They are most amazing animals.
 
Here's what I've gotten on super jungles.this comes straight from Pete Kahl.

"t The Super Jungle is the Dominant form of the Jungle Boa and one of the most beautiful Boa Constrictors in the world. Started out in Sweden produced by Lars Brandel and imported to Peter Kahl Reptiles in the early 1990's. After many years of frustration trying to breed these we figured out that they needed to be out bred to become genetically stronger. After ten years or more of hard work and perseverance, we now are actually producing the Super Jungles. It's been a long time in the making but well worth it."

I've always looked up to Pete as he played a major role in my breeding when I switched my focus from burms to boas back in the late 90s. He set me up with my first breeding projects, and spent countess hours answering questions, and giving me advice.
So I believe it can be done, but like stryker said even if I can't get them to reproduce, just producing 1 for my personal collection will be well worth the trouble. Let alone if I hit the genetic power ball and turn out a super jungle sunglow. That snake would never have to produce a thing to be a prized part of my personal collection.
 
Ok, I did some more research and it looks like the super jungles were/are dying young. Maybe not as much any more, not sure.

This thread is about super jungles and motleys. The first few posts tell about the fertility issue with SJs but not longevity. That comes up about 8 posts down from Mr. Boaphile.
http://www.redtailboas.com/f17/super-jungles-super-motleys-52425/

The RI thread link that was posted is specifically about how to keep super jungle boas living longer.
 
From what I have gathered Pete has not only been able to keep them alive, he's also successfully been able to breed them. I hope to sit down with him after the holiday, and pick his brain on the subject.

But either way I'm not going to make a big deal of it right now. I'd be lucky if I got 1 out of this pairing. It's not like I'm breeding specifically for sj's. But this news has definitely gave me something to look into because super jungles are definitely a bigger part of my future plans. My ultimate goal for future seasons is super ju ngle sunglow, super jungle motley, and super jungle motley sunglow. So if the super jungles are going to prove problematic I may need to reevaluate my future plans or at least step back a notch and just stick with just really good jungles, and leave the super part out until the bigger boys figure them out a little, and better strengthen the genetics.
 
Hopefully Pete can give you more info. I definitely have super jungles in my future plans also, but I plan on taking the long way around. I want to make super jungle anerys and I have the ingredients right now but they're all yearlings or younger. I don't have any jungles that are het anery, so I'm going to have to make the jungle hets first. The final product won't be for another 7-8 years at least.

Super jungle sunglows should be awesome though! And I never even thought what a super jungle motley would look like... Hmm...
 
RachelsBoa said:
Hopefully Pete can give you more info. I definitely have super jungles in my future plans also, but I plan on taking the long way around. I want to make super jungle anerys and I have the ingredients right now but they're all yearlings or younger. I don't have any jungles that are het anery, so I'm going to have to make the jungle hets first. The final product won't be for another 7-8 years at least.

Super jungle sunglows should be awesome though! And I never even thought what a super jungle motley would look like... Hmm...
Click to expand...

Yeah that was basically my train of thought when I decided to get back into breeding. I spent about 2 weeks combing the pages here, and over on KS just admiring all the new genetic phases that have surfaced over the last 10-15 years picking out which ones best suit my taste. Then for the next several weeks while I was researching what went into each phase, and learning the difference between dominant, co,dominant, and simple recessive genes my mind was working overtime trying to come up with the most creative ways to put everything I liked into 1 snake. It may take me the next 20 years to produce the only 2 on my mind right now, but I ain't going no where, and once I get there I'm sure it will be well worth it.

Super jungle sunglow, and then super jungle motley sunglow.
The up side to the wait is I'm going to have plenty opportunity to produce quite a few other fantastic specimens in the process.

But I am definitely going to pick Pete's brain on the super jungle issue. Maybe if I drop a bunch of cash on him for my future motley plans he won't mind putting up with me again lol.
 
No offense, but I'm not sure I would completely trust what Pete says on the matter. He made it clear several years back, that it's all about the money to him. He ain't the same guy I met back in '99.
 
crotalusadamanteus said:
No offense, but I'm not sure I would completely trust what Pete says on the matter. He made it clear several years back, that it's all about the money to him. He ain't the same guy I met back in '99.
Click to expand...

I haven't talked to him in over a decade, but when I switched from burms to boas he was the most helpful guy on the planet. I have basically shut my self out of the reptile world for the last decade + so I'm not aware of anything that has went down since. But I certainly hope this isn't the case. The man has always been one of my idols in the industry. But money, and success can have that effect on people. I guess i'll find out soon enough. I just hope he was having a bad day at the time in question. We're all entitled to a few of those. I know that certainly wasn't the man I knew way back when.
 
Bowgod34 said:
Yeah that was basically my train of thought when I decided to get back into breeding. I spent about 2 weeks combing the pages here, and over on KS just admiring all the new genetic phases that have surfaced over the last 10-15 years picking out which ones best suit my taste. Then for the next several weeks while I was researching what went into each phase, and learning the difference between dominant, co,dominant, and simple recessive genes my mind was working overtime trying to come up with the most creative ways to put everything I liked into 1 snake. It may take me the next 20 years to produce the only 2 on my mind right now, but I ain't going no where, and once I get there I'm sure it will be well worth it.

Super jungle sunglow, and then super jungle motley sunglow.
The up side to the wait is I'm going to have plenty opportunity to produce quite a few other fantastic specimens in the process.

But I am definitely going to pick Pete's brain on the super jungle issue. Maybe if I drop a bunch of cash on him for my future motley plans he won't mind putting up with me again lol.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't take that long to produce a super jungle sunglow (hypo jungle het albino x jungle het albino) (you get a better % if you use a jungle sunglow though) nor a jungle motley sunglow (albino motley x hypo jungle het albino). All of these have been on the market for a while now. Cant wait to see what you come up with.
 
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