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Observations Of A Closed Society

ALLEN, one other point, I am sure

that if you know any of the oldtimers that may know of me or the busiess that we had, you will find out that I was an honerable person to deal with. I doubt you will find anyone who was unsatisfied with the way we conducted our business because the final object including myself was to make a living. I was fortunate because I was also a NYC cop, but 100% of the other people we dealt with , had only one occupation and reptiles were it! They had nothing else to fall back on , so I was very grateful.

That is why I have the good fortune to enter some of these establishments as an individual and buy from them. Basically because they at one time or their children at one time bought from me, and were treated with the utmost respect and courtesy.

If you or Daniel had the opportunity to step back in time, you would have loved that era, and Iam sure you both would have done very well. Thanks for your imput.
 
You all missed something

What changed the industry from what it was 40 years ago was BREEDING! 40 years ago probably 90% (maybe more) of all reptiles sold were wild caught. Now probably a good 30-50% are captive born. That number goes even higher if you include the animals which are "farmed."

The breeders needed a market for thier animals. They went to the Jerry's of the world (the wholesalers) and took what they could get for a while. Then, a few of them (myself included), got PISSED! Why should I, the breeder, have to settle for $4.50 for a corn snake. The wholesaler gets $20 for it a week latter. The petstore gets $50-100 a week after that. And all they did was put it on the market. I spent years caring for the parents, and learning what it took to get them to breed. I think I deserve at least $10.

Enter the show promoter. Now I, the breeder, can spend a couple hundred bucks on tables and have a market of my own. I have to invest the money and the time, but because I am willing to do so, I can now get the $10 for the corn that I wanted in the first place (heck, sometimes $12-15!) If the Jerry's would have paid us fair money for our babies to start with the market would not have changed so drastically. Now the wholesalers are pissed because the jig is up. Not only can't they get the $20 any more, now they have to deal w/ me being willing to take $10 from the general public. Had you given me $10 to start with (heck I would have settled for $7.50) I would still be spending my weekends fixing things around the house. Instead, I spend my weekends selling herps, and pay someone to fix things around the house.

The next evolution in our industry is the MEGA BREEDER. Example: The Bell's not only can they kill the wholesaler, they can kill the small and medium size breeder. How? Because they can sell cheaper than anyone, while still having exceptional quality. It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
 
If the Jerry's would have paid us fair money for our babies to start with the market would not have changed so drastically
Click to expand...

While you personally may see this as true from what I've seen of a large percentage of breeders online this would not be true. Most breeders look at gross profit and think that goes into the wholesalers pocket. They fail to realize that building a sales machine (whether it's online or a retail outlet in a strip mall) takes money, risk, energy and skill (all those things you want to get paid for) which should have a return.

People in general want to get more for what they do. That is human nature. Those with drive would have invented the show venues in their present form no matter what people like Jerry paid (also if he doubled what he paid you, he would have passed that on to the customer and you'll still not be happy with his profit margins).

I believe this is a nature progression in economics. As is your mega-breeder scenario (look at farming operations over the last century).
 
Interesting discussion

Ok--I'm going to jump in too...

I agree, or I have to believe, that the market and industry has a way of weeding the "fly by night" businesses out quick these days. And the BOI certainly seems to have an influence. I am going to sound like a bleeding liberal here, but I have to believe that education is the key and customers ARE becoming more educated due to the amount of readily available information over the internet. And I believe that will continue.

We see lots of new "businesses" going in and out within months. These guys used to really irk me, but now I have seen enough come and go, that I do not think they are the wave of the future at all.
I also do not believe there is such thing as "no overhead" here--or that this biz caters to making a fast buck. Now, the only situation where this might apply is a scary one brought up by Mickey in the Underground thread on the boi. If someone can sit at there house and take orders for animals that they do not have... go down to the importer, buy it and just ship it right away. I guess that is pretty low overhead (no housing, no feeding, etc etc). (BTW, I'm not saying that Underground is doing this as I believe they have a retail store). However, in order to make money off of that, you have to have customers which means advertising and you are probably not going to have many customers if that is the way you do biz--as word travels fast.

I am very happy with the way this industry has progressed--more cb animals, more information, and more avenues. I certainly would not be here if it was any other way.
Just FYI (Jerry)-- we have a biz license, merchant and biz accounts, a retail/office space (closed to the public), and rent another private space as well. But, we started "out of the house"--still the overhead there was very high and in fact we are doing better now that we do spend more $ (takes money to make money). To believe that "basement breeders/dealers" have no overhead is just not the case--typically, a basement breeder either has to move up very fast or gets out.
I also have no problems with "hobby" breeders/dealers--I believe that their is nothing illegitamite about it--there is a section on your federal income tax forms just for this. I dont think they make much of a buck either due to the high cost of caring for animals, advertising, etc etc--and they cannot deduct expenses except off of their profits. I have no problem with these people doing shows or selling on the internet.
As a side note, as breeders we used to do all wholesale to dealers and petstores. As our costs increased, we had to start doing some retail. These days in order to keep up with overhead, we have to be mostly retail. A lot of that also came with the low price demand of the dealers over quality--I could not stomach selling animals under 1 month old, but they could not pay the prices to cover that care. I do not blame them, I just could not do it.

I really like this new trend of home businesses and people using creative thinking to make a living instead of just falling into the corporate rat race. I know I'm very thankful not to be there even though I work 7 days a week with no breaks and a ton of stress!
I also think it has greatly improved the end product--in this case, the quality of animals on the market today.

I agree with Dan-- I think most business markets are dealing with these kind of changes. No easy categories anymore, no straight line chain of sale. And I say kudos to the kid who is learning about business by working at starting one! There is probably a lot more growth and quality education through that than they get in most junior high schools.

We have not been in the business long enough to have an opinion on Old School vs today, however, we were lucky enough to have received help in the beginning from someone who could be considered Old School and of course we were buying and playing with reptiles in those days!

Interesting discussion! Just some of my thoughts...

Dana
 
well Brian, I think your thinking is a bit

off course. Breeders may have been around when I was in the business, but at the price we were selling merchandise for, it did not make sense. Guaranteed c.b. is always better than w.c. but I would have to also point out that the evolution of breeders was an outgrowth of additonal curtailment of the industry as a whole. What it has evolved into today is excellent husbandry techniques, a whole new market on drygoods, faster communications and a host of other outgrowths .

Let me say this much to you and anyone else reading this post. Right now I think the herp market is a depressed one, I also believe that if some form of licencing is not instituted as to whom is whom, it will be done for you. We are reaching the point where this business is becoming the leading " identity loss business of the 21 century" By that I mean no one knows who is whom. You could have 20 email addresses, 20 different reptile names, attend shows as a vendor with the basic licence, get away with anything short of murder without any legal retribution, work out of your bedroom, on and on. Now Iam not going to go back 40 years and tell you why it was better then, but if you think this is considered progress, you are mistaken. This has nothing to do with breeders, or wholesalers or the Jerrys of the world. What this has to do with is legitimizing a business that has eroded because of breeders and other weekend herpers who go unchecked, care less about permits (unless it suits their needs) and find this field to be open prey for the quick buck.

If it were up to me, and many should be glad it is not, 60% of these vendors would be out of a show instead of in one. I would only allow legal businesses in, people who pay taxes, people who are licenced by the state to run a business not just a permit from Fish and Wildlife. I would make it very difficult ! But at least you would not have to worry that your next door neighbor has decided to take a booth because he wants to sell out his collection. I would make certain that individuals could not buy from wholesalers because they call them selves the ABC Reptile Co. , yes these are drastic measures, but if I am correct , whats coming down the pipeline insofar as legislation is concerned will be a far worse nightmare then what your complaints are about.
 
DANA, what Mickey was eluding to

is exactly the problem, and if you read some of my previous posts, I think you will understand why I am adament about some form of a program to indicate who are these people. Its ridiculous to think that if you buy a pair of Leopard geckos, your a breeder. Now you know and I know thats not the case, but these people times 100 dont care, provide nothing of value and are free to go about their business uninterupted on the internet, at shows, at wholesalers, everywhere!!

Of course when I was in business , its not that this could not have happened, its that WE WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN, and thats the difference. We were all legal businesses, and am I asking to much for the same 40 years later !

Mark my word, the day will come when something will get out of hand, and I can tell you it will probably be health related, and you will see what will happen to this UNCHECKED industry. Regards, JERRY
 
Jerry,

What exactly would you require for a "legal" business? What is considered legal in CA is really a very small hurdle and I don't see it limiting anything.

For what it's worth the Monkey Pox was traced to a legitimate business not a backyard breeder.
 
Daniel dont get me wrong, disease has

no boundries, we both know that. What I am saying are two things which I experienced during the 70s. One was the pet shop that sold baby turtles to a child that ended up putting the turtle in its mouth. What erupted was federal legislation that curtailed the sale of baby turtles. I know the store that had to go to court to fight a disease that all of a sudden became a problem associated with the pet trade, namely Salmonella. That store went bankrupt because of the civil litigation, and had the pet shop not been a corp. in the state of NY the liability would have been personal instead of corportate. It shook up the entire industry. If their were any private turtle breeders then, they went underground because they would certainly have been fair game.

The second incident had to do with an individual who was able to import Ball pythons, about 300 of them from West Africa. Now he was able to get them because he paid a bird dealer to bring in the pythons with the African Greys. To make a long story short, he kept the pythons in his garage for weeks in sacks. He began peddling them to anyone who would buy them. $ 2 to $3 dollars each. People began getting sick, and were eventually hospitalized with what was called "Q fever" to make matters worse, he refused to devulge who he sold the pythons to. Most of which ended up being shipped throughout the country. They were eventually tracked down, taken and destroyed. Regardless of what you may think, its a blemish on you and I and the industry. My only good fortune was in convincing the authorities that the Reptile business had nothing to do with this individual.

As extreme as these stories may sound, it is not inconceivable for someone to sell sick animals to the public at a show (as an example) or to other vendors. These are individuals who dont realize the liabilities that could ruin their life, especially with a health issue. All it takes is one. Iam not even going to discuss the venomous end of the herp business!

Can you imagine some one from the State Tax office wanting to check your invoices at a show! I would not like it. As an individual you would be screwed. At least if you are a corp. and you have a business checking account and you have a tax licence, you are legal, other than that, telling me that a permit to carry and sell reptiles is not going to cut it once the boom falls.

What I am telling you is for your own protection. I am covered. If you go to our website, you will see in print that we are a legal corp. in the state of Fla. That was not done by accident, but rather to let people know that we are legitimate business. If you feel that these things are above and beyond what you think is necessary to run your business, all I can say is good luck!

These statements are not directed at you, but Ive seen Brians tables at shows, and his animals are represented very nicely, but maybe the guy next to him may not, maybe the guy next to him may not even care because their are no concerns on his part. He has paid the 45.00 for the table, and at the end of the day, he is gone. Only in this industry could you get away with that! We are looked upon by the federal people as the "garbage dealers" peddlers of skins, flesh and animals. If we dont clean and regulate our own business , who will do it for us. I think we both know the answer to that.
 
I am unclear on something. Are you recommending federal regulation (this is what I was thinking you were pointing to by the name of your organization and the use of the term "regulation) as in a government agency forcing a hierarchy or are you suggesting a non-profit trade organization?

I stand firmly against a government regulation as they take enough of my money without returning a benefit as it is (on so many levels).

A trade organization I would support if done properly. To be successful it would need a large participation by online and retail businesses. To get there participation you would need to show a benefit to their businesses (mostly in increased sales). You will need to educate the public as to the benefits of buying from a member store as opposed to a non-member store or breeder. A trade organization that does not address the issue of why a customer would buy from a member business will just be a social club for larger businesses and the other streamlined efficient businesses will not participate. I think this may be the only way to save the trade show business in this industry. Raising the standard of vendors at the show will draw from a larger geographical area.

I know your dislike of small time backyard breeder but you need to look at a way to bring them in and educate them in the way of business as they will be your largest contributor in educating the public on a grass roots (meaning inexpensive) level.

Some things I would like to see from a trade organization:

  • Co-op advertising opportunities on multiple levels to allow for maximum participation
  • Standardized show standards and promotions
  • Business oriented publication focusing on the education of reptile speciality business practices
  • Workshops on the reptile business
  • Some type of online directory of reptile business so it's easy for the general public to find supporting businesses
  • Secondary would be legistlation lobbying for the trade/hobby in general
 
DANIEL, I can truly understand your

adversity toward "regulations", and I dont like it anymore than you. Here in Fla. we do not have state income tax, so they collect revenue by permit-ing you to death with everything short of breathing fresh air, and snow removal. But to answer your queston, the regulations would have to be federal. Their are many reasons why. Two simple ones would be, if it were a law, then you would have to get the permits as a privilege and abuse would deny any future permits. Secondly, it would allow us to know who these people really are because their names would include more than just an email address.

But let me say this much, these far fetched ideas that Ive been throwing around, are not new to industries that are out of control. The frauds bureau of the FBI could keep agents busy just on mail fraud and interstate fraud on Reptiles alone. So this is a serious matter that eventually will boil over. It just has to effect a child or a health issue and you will see restrictions that I would not like to look forward to.

Their are alot of fine people out their that have invested alot of time, money and sweat in producing herps that I would never have even dreamt of. Their are also alot of people out their that would love to have those animals for free! The game would be to make certain that they are not attracted to this business because of under-regulating. If their locked out, we all sleep safer.
 
So Jerry, what is a person supposed to do with the 15 corn snakes they produce?

With the 50?

With the 200?

The internet changed the global market place. Anyone can sell anything. It's not just herps. Go to EBAY and put in anything, someone will most likely be selling it. I agree there needs to be an agency to go after ppl who rip others off, but I don't think just because a 14 year old decides to sell some fly cultures or some guy wants to sell off his excess offspring. They need to spend X number of thousands of dollars to do so.

As I said before, I really think our market changed because of the increased presence of shows and the internet, making it easier for breeders to fair compensation for their offspring. If wholesaling our offspring were even somewhat fair I don't think you'd see so many "fly-by-night" vendors.
 
Sorry, the last sentence of the next to last paragraph should be part of the sentence before it. Brain Fart!
 
If their locked out, we all sleep safer.
Click to expand...

Your regulation would lock me out as well since I do not fit (nor desire to) into your inefficient heirarchy.

Their are alot of fine people out their that have invested alot of time, money and sweat in producing herps that I would never have even dreamt of.
Click to expand...

While I consider myself part of the above group, over-regulation would lock me out as well (the law wouldn't differentiate between good intentioned cash strapped startups and poor intentioned cash strapped scam artists. For the record, I see a number of unethical, unprofessional businesses in this industry that are funded by daddy's money, inheritence etc that your regulation would allow in.
 
BRIAN, DANIEL, Iam glad I struck a nerve

because we all know that legislation is in the pipeline. How it will affect us remains to be seen, but it will happen.

Brian, to answer your question, as to what to do with these animals that have produced for you is an interesting one. Because this is what puts people into business, at least for a short while before they move onto something else. You also happen to be correct about your analogy to Ebay. I am fully aware of the difficulties that arise in any business. As a matter of fact I think we both can agree that Ebay has created businesses.
The livestock business is somewhat unique and needs to be monitored in order to be successful. We cannot sell endangered animals, or break into zoos or smuggle herps accross borders any longer. The penalities are stiffer, and countries have alliances with other countries. So our situation is a bit different. It would only benefit you in the long run, me included, if we were protected from our own worst enemies, namely those people who dont care, are in it for weekend, need money in a hurry, and on ad nauseum.

Insofar as the example of the 14 year old, I used it to portray an actual incident that did occur. I dont mind competiton, but is it fair for someone to get into a show with no permit at all ! Is that the criteria? Of course not! I dont think you would like a person taking a booth next to you who goes from friend to friend, and brings herps to sell at a show (regardless of the reason) with out having some legitimacy. The organizers dont seem to care, they just want the table sold. So who protects Brian ? At least if you were licenced as a dealer or breeder or whatever, they would not be allowed to participate unless they themselves were licenced. Is this such a bad thing?

Daniel, you would not be locked out, because the regulations that I was referring to has nothing to do with your inventory or how or where you maintain it. If your residence is your place of business , fine. If you need a phyical place, thats fine to. But at least by being licenced, you add legitimacy to your vocation. Right now their is none. We are all pooled together even though we may call ourselves importers, or wholesalers, or breeders. Without some clear understanding what a looser does on the bottom of the rung, may effect all the good work you have done on the top of that rung. Thats a given fact.

I saw what happened in 1975 when someone whom I know tried to smuggle some herps into the country. It effected everyone. Everyone became a matter of suspicion, and I did not like it, I had nothing to do with this individual, never did business with him, but all of a sudden we were monitored. As isolated as this incident was (without going into to much detail) the appearance of Fish and Wildlife was no longer a friendly matter, but rather an intrusion. It has continued to this day.
 
Out here we already have a licensing program for all businesses. This is money I throw away errr, I mean give to government officials that does nothing to assist my business. There are no criteria other than just a physical location within the city. They have no way of knowing the condition of what I sell on a daily basis, good or bad. I need to throw away more money in this manner, like I need a hole in the head. The funds required for any type of physical inspection process would drive the fees to an outrageous amount (ergo locking me out).

You say this is going to happen anyhow. That may be so. As a business I am almost positive that I'll be broken into someday. Doesn't mean I leave the door unlocked with my inventory sheets and a store map by the door for the crooks. I protect myself tooth and nail from the government, err I mean theives.

Again, a voluntary trade association with the intent and game plan to legitimize the industry I would agree with 1000% and support both financially and with effort. But inviting government intrusion I'll pass, I saw that vampire movie :D
 
DANIEL, thanks for all the posts and

participating in this discussion. Right now things will be the same, but we both know that eventually this very thing we have written about will effect all of us. I was wondering if it is to much of a problem to let me know a little about yourself. Do you have any occupation, are you married, or in school. I am just curious. The very best. JERRY
 
Jerry, the regulation of which you speak is there! Remember at the W. Palm show, the guy from out of state who had no FL permit. $500 fine, doubt he'll do that again. I understand you may be talking more about business licenses and the like, but I really have no problem w/ other breeders bringing stuff into the shows I do, in order to sell it. I don't need more rules to protect me, either I can compete or I'll simply get out of the business.
 
BRIAN, I had no idea that he was

fined $ 500.00. Thats alot of money, and this was only permit related. Can you imagine what would happen if the state tax people decided to crack down. That would be a serious problem because you have to be licenced to collect tax in Fla. , and when it comes to revenue, their very unforgiving. Any sale requires tax, and you and I both know that none is collected at these shows. All it takes is one individual and that would cause a landslide. See you at the next show. Thanks for participating. JERRY
 
Jerry,

Just FYI, I found this organization in the Pet Products News magazine today.

www.pida.org

They're an organization trying to ensure the survival of the structured business system (manufacturer --> distributor/wholesaler --> retailer). Just thought you mind find it of interest.
 
Thanks to a link in the BOI i found this thread.

Licensing and permitting along with inspection can do no harm to the industry! In fact it can provide much more legitimacy and honesty to the sellers and reassurance to the buyers in some respects. As a licensed contractor nothing irritates me more then hearing stories from my customers of unlisenced persons doing shoddy work or ripping them off for thousands of dollars. The actions of unlicensed and unregulated contractors reflect horribly on the honest reputable contractors.

In the reptile industry I see licensing and permitting not so much as nuisance or intrusion but more of a check and balance. Because I keep venomous I am inspected by fish and game from time to time. I have found this to be a bonous as they not only check my venomous but also like to see the nonvenomous. Knowing people like quality animals that are healthy and kept well I log each visit form fish and game and when a potential customer ask me about my animals i inform them of the inspections. Letting them know that though its a inspection designed at hots they do check the conditions of my other animals and to date have found no problems. Also i send a copy of the requirements i must meet under the law for housing of animals so they understand that I must meet those requirememnts. This has helped me with several sells when buyers were skeptical from past rip off artist.

As to reptile shows. I would much preffer purchase from persons I know have proper licensing and permits. Not only can certain species cost you dearly in fines if you do not have proper documentation of its origin but the fact is it also shows the seller has taken the time to be legal on his actions and as such is more than likely not a scammer. The cost of permits and licensing in most cases is not as drastic as some may think and a few good sells and you have more than covered the cost.

Be you new to the hobby or a seasoned pro just as with any bussiness you should strive for the best product and a bussiness moral better then the next guy.
 
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