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Observations Of A Closed Society

demand for reptiles was much greater then than it is today

Jerry do you have numbers on this or is it a judgement based on experience. Nothing wrong with judgement as many things can't be measured just curious if you had a source for numbers. I've been looking for numbers to base market share and potential martket analysis on. The last thing I read was out of Pet Product News that stated the reptile/amphibian market was the only sector to grow in the last 3 years. Now this could have been due to an increase in popularity in reptiles or in a decline in the other areas (who wants a noisy bird :D ?).
 
One thing about the Internet that has turned the reptile industry for the worse is Take for example KS. There are a few individuals on there (They are members of this site as well) that advertise their animals to the public at the same price as they offer them to their wholesale clients. I personally feel this is not good for anyone as all it does it make people think that is the normal price on certain animals. I am of the mindset that if I am going to advertise my animals on KS I don't undercut the competition to drastically.

Honestly if I wanted to I could get on KS or Fauna and sell animals at alot less than what I have on my wholesale price list but what good does that do? It makes the customers expect everything that much cheaper and prevents the people that rely on their online retail sales to make their living. I believe that competition is good to a degree but the ones that try and ruin it and basically make themselves have no competition is not good. These sellers only care about the quick sale and not about anything else. I personally would rather treat, care for, and acclimate an animal a little while and be able to sell it direct to a customer at a little higher price and not only make a little more money but make one of my customers that much happier that they are getting a quality animal and not just one animal that just arrived and has not been cared for at all but lower in price.

Another thing is specially here in Florida it seems that every week there is 1 or 2 NEW people selling reptiles. They go into Strictly or some of the other wholesalers that will sell to pretty much anyone at their wholesale prices, mark the price up a very small amount and then resell it online. And alot of these NEW sellers turn out to be nothing more than a rip off anyway. I have worked hard for my business, paid all needed for my licenses and do everything that is required by both the Federal, State and Local Government to conduct my business but so many of these NEW sellers are not licensed in the least and have no responsibility of a business.

Ok OK Ok I know I probably sound like a complaining old man now so I will stop my Rant :bolt01:
 
I would dearly love to expand my little basement-dwelling operation into a full-fledged business, but I find the limitations on shipping in my area to be too much of a hinderance toward my goals, so I stay small intentionally.

Even so, it seems to me that the types of changes about which you all are discussing are not at all unique to the reptile trade industry. In fact, I would imagine that Ford felt the same way toward those "upstarts" over at Oldsmobile!

Not to be too unoriginal, but the old maxim is true: The only constant in business is change! I suppose that's how saying get to be old maxims ... by their veracity.
 
LMAO. I actually had an importer call me (ordered some supplies). In talking he asked about us carrying his animals so I told him to email me over his current list and I'd take a look. Got his list and happened to be looking through KS's classifieds. There he was offering the same animal for a $1 more at 1 ea than he was offering me in 10 lots. Told him I wasn't interested.

This industry does not have a clear definition of the term "wholesale" (probably Jerry's rant from the beginning). I had a person come up to me at a show wanting to buy dragons wholesale. No problem, how many do you want (so I can figure out which bracket to put him in). "1 only, thanks". Whipping out my Websters I couldn't find "wholesale" defined as 1 :D
 
I get that exact thing all the time when I have bearded (and other reptiles as well). They e-mail to find out what my prices are in quantities then they say ok I will take 2 at the price I am quoting them in a 20 lot. Just like not that long ago, I had a 20 lot of beardeds on KS being sold only in the 20 lot for price X. Well this customer basically demanded that I sell to them at the same price that I normally sell them in 50 or greater size lots. Sometimes it makes me laugh and sometimes it burrs my rear:angry:
 
Rob,

You posted while I was still typing, so I didn't address what you said, but I agree 100%!!!

One of the things I hate to see is wholesalers trying to be retailers, without taking a price differentiation into account. This summer, I saw an ad for some higher end animals, being sold for about half their retail value (not as part of some short term sale, either!). Well, I did not really have the money to get them all, but I went ahead and did, simply because I did not want that guy ruining the market for the rest of us!

If you (this is the generic, indescriminate "you" here!) have animals that you want to sell quickly, go to a wholesaler, or known breeders, and offer them the deal in private. Why make the market price suffer just because you need a quick fix? Not only does it hinder the efforts of others, but even if you don't care what happens to your friends/competitors, such an action is short-sighted for the needs that you may well be having when YOU want to sell that morph/snake again someday. I just don't understand the logic of some among us.

As to "new" sellers, I don't have a problem with them, so long as they identify themselves as such. We all started somewhere, but those who want to say they have 10 years experience when they are but 18 years old are a real danger to the industry!
 
We have the same problem...always have. We call them "station wagon dealers". (Showing my age there to...how many station wagons do you see these days!!!LOL's!) They do not have a state permit, county occupational, no overhead(They do not keep any specimens or have cages for them if they did want to hold them!)Plus many do not have a clue as to the care of what they sell or do they care. They go down to a dealer on a weekend and buy 100 iguanas for 1.75 and sell them for 2.75. I can't do this... By the time I pay for fuel and tolls-40.00 Pay shipping and Brokers. Bring them back to the shop and hydrate/feed them. Hold them for two-three days to weed out any weak or sick ones. Deliver them to a pet shop...more gas and time. Plus figure in my phone calls, electricity etc. etc. No way I can compete. The only good thing is that my customers have dealt with these morons and are willing to pay more for high quality specimens that have someone that will back them up and can tell them how to get out of trouble if they have any!!! I always put single and 3 lot prices on my wholesale list. The prices are high enough that the real wholesale purchasers can get the deals they need. My wholesale prices are often rather high... This reflects the time I put into making sure that the specimens are healthy and most of the time treated for parasites and feeding. Just as with the reatil market, if you supply a better product people will pay. I still get those that have the out of the shipping box mentality though! The big problem lies in two areas. 1) The dealers that sell to these guys for the same price they do to "Real" wholesale dealers. 2) These weekend warrior wanna be's that sell directly to the pet shops' customers for the same price that they sell to the pet shop themselves! They just don't understand that they are cutting their own throats. We had a guy in our area recently that was doing exactly the same thing. He sold to many shops in my area for barely over what I paid. Within three weeks the shops were calling me to find out what was wrong with the sick animals they purchased. Many of them called him and told him to come back and pick up his sick animals. Who did he call for help...me of course! I helped him out anyway because I didn't want to see the animals die. I took a considerable amount of time explaining the care and treatment of the animals he had sold. What did I get out of it? Nothing. But, the people who purchased from him knew that I was the one who helped. They will remember that in the future. These upstarts don't concern me much. Irritating yes. The other thing is that the dealer that sold to him took advantage of his lack of experience and sold him junk or animals that they couldn't sell. Great ethics with both parties. I agree with Rob I could sell wholesale on the net to retail customers as well. However, there's a reason that all types of business's have importers. wholesalers, jobbers and retailers.
 
DANIEL, I can only tell you this much,

and it may sound terrible, but we had no concern for the de -populating an area or country for that matter of fact when I was importing. It would not be feasable to bring in the quantites of herps that I brought in as it would surpass all the importers of today. Imagine over 200 boxes per month. between 3 countries in Africa, and this went on for years. If I would mention this, no one would believe me, or worse , would think that I lost my mind posting this way, but it is a fact. I cannot tell you other than my experience as a reference. But to give you an example, over 20 thousand Jackson chameleons per year just on that item. Our facility was 20,000 sq ft. and we had the business run like a well tuned swiss watch.

But I would like to put that aside for a moment to address some of the other difficulties that I have observed in this fascinating business. We were a self- regulatory operation. Nothing illegal, and strictly above board in our operation. My philosophy was a simple one. I offered to make money for other people, if they purchased from me. Not only that , but I offered protection. Everyone made out well. Week in and week out dealers would line up outside of our premise at 4 or 5 in the morning, and the doors would open, and you had your pick of whatever you wanted like a candy store. If you were not a recognized dealer, we would approach it differently, but thats how we ran our business. No one had permits, their was no problems with fish and wildlife, and we all knew each other. Even if you were short financially, the monies were made up at a later date.

This is exactly the way Chris from LA Reptiles runs her business today. Patterned right after the way we did it 40 years ago. Although the times may have changed, the philosophy has not. Chris makes money for her clients, and her clients know better than to test the waters by not screwing around with her.

Todays market is drastically different, and the flood gates have opened so wide its impossible to differentiate who is whom. If I were Jeff from Kingsnake, I would only allow wholesalers to advertise in a wholesale section, a breeders section for breeders, an import section for importers and so on. How that would be achieved is not so simple, but it could be done. Here you have a hodgepodge of wholesalers selling to individuals, individuals buying from importers, children representing themselves as a business, and on and on. No control, people hiding behind emails, and a trail of blood money that reads like a nightmare novel when you hear some of these stories on the BOI

I feel sorry for Rob and alot of other great people who have tried to elevate themselves to a standard that keeps on hitting a brick wall, and as a pessimist at heart, I see in the not to distant future, the ruination of the herp industry because things today always seem to lead to a health issue. I was around when the salmonella wars occurred between the health dept and the turtle breeders, and I fear that the day will come when you will need a health permit to ship any herp via airlines. Its just a matter of time.

Sorry Iam going off tangent here, but it just takes one individual to bring a problem to a health official, and things have a way of boomeranging out of proportion. Also, imagine, with all the animals that we were bringing in, not once with one exception, did we ever receive a visit from fish and wildlife at our establishment. Now compare that to their appearances at these shows of today and the waste of time and manpower that they go through to check these operations and what there inventory is, their permits, etc. Look at the ambiguous laws from one state to another even in transporting herps accross state lines. It can be a nightmare. I am enclosing another article that I have, its only the first page, of a 5 page article that was written about our business i believe in 1975. You may find it interesting.
 
Robert, your post actually reflects

the disease that effects this business. It has taken the quality dealer out of the picture when their are no rules to the game. If you read some of rambling posts you will see that one of the items I offered my customers was protection from the very thing that you are talking about. Thats the destructive nature that this herp enterprise has dwindled to. Its an emplosion, a cancer that is destroying the essence of this business from the inside out.

Thats what gets me so upset sometimes when I read some of these posts. The reptile business should have evolved from when I was in it to a worthy institution with all the advances in husbandry, and communications. But instead , you have a business that seems to have everyone lnvolved in one large pot, we have lost sight of the direction of what is considered a normal way of doing business. Nothing is normal anymore, and people seem to go out of their way to get attracted to this business because their are no ethics when it comes to money.

Insofar as the animals themselves, they were fresher than what is delivered today. Most animals were caught by the trappers over the weekend and shipped either Mon. or Tues. By the time we received them, usually on Wed or Thurs. they were sold. 80% of all livestock was pre sold before the plane landed. We had no forms of communications as we do today, but we had a system that allowed us to know in advance what we were getting. The airlines would receive what was called a telex with the list of what was being sent at least 48 hours before the animals arrived. They would call us and gave the list over the phone. That gave us enough time to notify by phone our accounts. This was the norm of doing business. No permits were necessary for fish and wildlife, and the flow of animals were uninterupted until the mid 70s when things began to change. It was at that time that we attempted to form an International Reptile Organization.
 
Not only that , but I offered protection

This is fine if your on top. If your at the bottom of the ladder and have the drive and ambition to be on the top rung this system is destrutive for you.

But instead , you have a business that seems to have everyone lnvolved in one large pot,

It is our job to make ourselves stand out from this large pot. "Instead of buying from me because I'm the local pet shop and you have no one else to buy from, buy from me because of quality, price and service" is what every communication both overt and subtle should be saying to your customers. There are those customers out there that are waiting to hear exactly that. What I see that scares me is quality breeders/suppliers that feel they need to compete on price alone. This destroys the enthusiasms and energy so that they start cutting corners and lose the quality.

If I were Jeff from Kingsnake, I would only allow wholesalers to advertise in a wholesale section, a breeders section for breeders, an import section for importers and so on.

My personal opinion is that you need to be a little of all these groups to be successful. We (meaning Scales) do not fit into just one of these categories. We breed, we manufacturer, and we also provide retail sales. This is a common trait across businesses in the US as people outsource those products or services that they cannot efficiently handle in-house.

I think Darin's analogy to the car industry is very relevant to this discussion. At first Japanese makers competed only on price. American car makers countered with luxury and quality. Then it went back with price and quality. Right now I think we are coming to the end of the "price only" era.

I do have to agree that with the illogic of legislation and over-abundance of those in society that think the government is there to protect us from ourselves, one moronic person could cause a health outbreak that it will take us a while to fix.
 
Well Daniel, I guess this is where we

have to disagree, but I am a bit confused. Just exactly what is your position? Are you a wholesaler, or a pet shop or a breeder. Let me know, because I cannot seem to get a handle as to why you seem to have some concerns about "price alone".

If your dealing with the retail market and by that I mean individuals, thats one thing, but if your dealing with a store, thats another thing. Let me know.
 
We breed chameleons, bearded dragons and uromastyx. We also operate a reptile speciality store (mostly online but working with limited walk in traffic). Like I said the lines are blurred and it's hard put companies in a box now.

"Price only". I have a pet peeve with people that state they can't compete with the guy in the next table at shows (can be anywhere, just using shows as an example) because he is low-balling the market. Usually the low baller is offering sub-quality animals. Unless he is turning dramatic volume (like you were), he is also loosing his shirt. Now it maybe an arrogant attitude (hey you need some of it to leave corporate world and go out on your own ;) ), but I don't need "protection" from the station wagon dealers that Ray was talking about. I can locate customers (in a decent volume, working to build a great volume :) ) that want and are willing to pay for quality.

I've bought animals at wholesale lots. I don't believe in just looking at the numbers on the inventory lists of importers and choosing the importer with the lostest price. Does no good to save $5 on an animal if you have to spend $20 to rehab it (and lose 6 months at the same time) or lose the animal all together.

There are definitely more than one business model that will work. I just feel this is the best one for us based upon our goals, environment and working skills.
 
I can assume then that between your

internet advertising and your shows , you mostly sell to individuals, but have access to wholesalers. When you say "walk ins" can I assume this is your home and not a physical place of business.

If I am correct, then I understand.
Now let me say this much to you, and I dont mean to be disrespectful, but if the above is correct putting aside your values on maintaining high quality herps to your customers. If it were up to me (and thank God it is not, because I would have a hell of a lot of enemies), I would not allow you nor anyone that operates as you in any show, or wholesale outlet. Certainly 40 years ago, you would be deemed a "freeloader" . What I mean by that is aside from your traveling and maybe permits that you may be required to have, you have no overhead, that involves a place of business maybe other than your home, no employees, you dont pay taxes on what you sell and you dont unless I am mistaken, have no other employment, which I am sure you do!
Basically you fit the mold of an anonymous individual dealer, who breeds and sells to a market that you have determined, for whatever reason, pet stores are lacking in. Now I understand why the "price factor" is out of the equation. It is simply because you can afford to take it out of the picture without it hurting your business. This to me is a problem,

These kinds of businesses is what is ruining the entire industry. I am not suggesting that you are the cause, but to many operations of this type have left an open door policy for every concevable crook and thief to enter the portals of the herp business, when in fact you may not even be a corporation to the state that you reside in. Thats another matter altogether. You assume no liability, and you are not beholding to anyone. Basically a shell. Now I am not putting you in this catagory, but this is the dilemma. With all of your best intentions and all of your concerns about the reptiles, and Ive read many of your posts and they are intellegent and caring, you ve put yourself in an industry with many others that allows you to leave a trail of destructiveness if you feel its necessary to get out of the business real quick. Basically , you have walked away from your own misery, and the only recourse is to try and find you. This to me is the crux of the deterioration of the industry. Allowing individuals to play businessman for a week, a month a year, and if you change your mind, to close shop and forget any damage you may have caused because their is nothing anyone can do about it. I am not trying to single you out, because I know your intentions are honorable, but think of all the other people like yourself who roam this site and Kingsnake . Their could be 1000s of similar unchecked, operations. Worthy or not, I dont know who these people are, and neither do you. This very forum , the BOI is an outgrowth of these underlying problems that I am referring to.
I would enjoy meeting you if you ever get to Daytona. JERRY
 
LOL. Missed by a little.

1. We operate out of what is labeled "light industrial". We have a warehouse with the front 1/3 of the building being office space. Since the priority at this time is mail order/internet sales having the high cost of a retail location is unprofitable. By "walk ins" I mean we have people that either stumble upon our location or others that have seen us online/at shows and come to our location knowing it is not a traditional store. Another reason we operate out of the light industrial area is because we manufacture a line of all screen cages which we sell at distributor, wholesale and retail levels.

2. This is our full time (+) jobs (my wife and I. I usually put in 90+ hours per week) and we just hired our first part time employee. So yes it is small but legitimate.

3. I have a city business license. Pay taxes. Record sales. Pay rent.

4. It is a legitimately filed DBA business. Everything is tied to our name so it would be hard to cut and run on the losses.

Here is why I can forgo the process of competing on price only. I feel I can charge a little more for our animals and some supplies (some you need to be very price competitive on) because of the service we provide along with those purchases (and even to people that haven't purchased from us). When we did the San Diego show last Oct we sold out of uromastyx. I was charging more than anyone there. I believe this was due to the specimens we had (quality) and the knowledge my wife would freely share about the captive care of uros (service). Now there are times when price is all the customers are looking for (July show in San Diego). I can do as others and frett and worry, running around with a magic marker slashing prices left and right until I am making $.50 per animal after costs or I can think long term and make my sales at the next venue where there is a proper reward for the hard work. This is why I don't compete on price terms only.

By the way here is my "station wagon" :D

sandiego-2.jpg
 
Jerry i have to ask you this

ok you have just put a "label" on Daniel for his buisness whether you intended to or not you said he was from what i read not ligit in the buisness cause he has no "storefront to pay an absorbent overhead for ?

Ok my "main buisness" is remodeling i have been in it 5 yrs under my own operation.now with tthat said i operate out of my home ... i have a VERY low overhead my shop is a building on my property in which i build some cabinets in and use as a storage for materials etc ... Im not listed in the yellow pages for my buisness.

No let me address a few things that really ticked me off in your post as to how i operate MY business.

1. Not listed in the yellow pages ??? why should i pay $3500 a year for a listing in a book that when someone calls there going to get a answering machine ? and more then likely hang the phone up and call the next person in line ?

2. why should i pay for a building to have to pay to put a sign up pay costs and overhead that i DONT need to operate my business and either build or rent/lease ? this building to do so ?

so in your opinion im a fly by night ??? please say no because i have a good customer base that was built soley on word of mouth i didnt feel it was a needed to pay out thousands of dollars to give what i can give for free good quaility service and workmanship to a customer which would mean i would then need to pass on ALL of the overhead costs associated with the $3500 yellow page add that wouldnt do anything other then waste my time giving out free quotes to window shoppers . pay probably $20K to rent or lease a place that i would be in very little time each month and would not offer customers the luxury to walk in a show room to waste my time holding there hands .

i must say that from what you are stating and i will say i have just read posts here in there on this thread that because you WERE all of this you have posted you sound bitter to me that you are no longer on top of the world ... sorry but this is just my opinion .

Let me ask you this do you think Bob clark , and the barkers and all the other BIG names in the buisness report every $15k snake they sale to uncle sam ... they also have CLSOED facilities to a point they also do not sale to pet shops as a regular practice im sure ... i would say that 80-90 % of all of the reptile industry operates online because it reduces there over all price to the end user .. i dont know just seems to me you are bitter because your not #1 big shot anylonger ... ok im done before tyhis goes into a long lost tangent .... face it Jerry the world does CHANGE and if you get left in the days of yesteryear you can only BLAME yourself for not making the profitable change to stay in the running .... every post you make is a crying session it seems as to how things "aint like they use to be " get over it keep up or quit whinning ...
 
Different Business Models

I have to state that I did not take the label personally or that there is any "wrong" in this discussion. It is a mature discussion about market conditions, business models and surviving in an internet based age as a business.
 
Ill say sorry for my format

But it just hit a raw accord with me with his post ... to "ASSume" everyone is doing what he said is IMHO wrong anyway ill stay out of this from now on becasue im not a importer or exporter ... i breed a few boas here and there if i sell some to cover my costs all the better if not im happy as a lark either way . Again sorry for the tangent just hit a bone wrong ... And Daniel .. i like your station wagon.

One thing i will have in common (sometime this year hopefully ) will be a shop for my caging side of the buisness which yes will be legit and will have a showroom as me and my partner are planning on doing this as a full time thing within the next year of getting this off the ground ... anyways im out of thisone sorry i butted in like i did please continue on lol
 
DANIEL, you have no idea how much

better I feel now that you mentionedthat information to me. I hope you realize that my statements were not to target YOU, but was a general summation of whats happeningin this business Thanks for the photo. JERRY
 
ALLEN, no one mentioned yellow pages

nor made any reference to Daniel being a fly by night or anything remotely related to that, nor am I concerned about him being in a building, etc. I think you missed the point.

What you fail to realize is that being in the business is one thing, owning a business is another thing altogether. Now I am not talking about whats right, but I am talking about liabilities.

Their are many people in this industry who come here for a
"free ride" and then leave the park. I am not saying Daniel is one of them but I am saying that because of know one knowing who is whom, no controls, and sometimes making peoples lives miserable by stealing from them or selling sick animals accross the internet, their are no stopgaps. This is why the industry is looked down upon by the federal agencies, state agencies, local people etc. Everyone is operating out of their bedroom, attending weekend shows as vendors, and dissapearing if necessary. Certainly these things are happening. You may not be doing this, but alot of other people are. This is something that I am not making up. Incidently, you are correct, I am mad! certainly not at David or YOU, but these are unhealthy signs, and because of these difficulties, you will see additional restrictions being placed on this industry because we do not know the extent of individual movement within this industry. Businesses we can control more easily, individuals unrestricted we cannot!

I hope you can understand, their are ways to legitimize and assume liability once you set foot into the buying and selling of herps. Most individuals prefer not to do that, because no burden is placed on them.
 
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