Off The Ark Exotic Pets INQUIRY

[bigtiger]

Big Tiger,
You seem to be missing the point of this thread. Off the Ark Exotic Pets very brazenly breaks state law by advertising and selling Virginia native species, such as Yellow bellied sliders, Eastern Painted turtles, and Eastern box turtles. He violates Chesterfield County law by displaying and selling venomous animals. If he sells a Va native herp that has been perfectly well cared for, he breaks the law. It is that simple. Do you support breaking wildlife laws, or laws in general? That is the primary thing this thread has been talking about, not how he treats animals, but that he breaks the law. This reflects badly on reptile keepers as a whole, and can bring about stricter local and state laws concerning the keeping of exotics. I am not in favor of that, and I doubt that you are either.
As for his concern for animals' well being and his standards of animal care, you need to read what Vinnie says on this thread which he initiated:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...light=biosphere

He talks about having a 4'X4'X2' cage into which he'll put:

1 Tarantula, size corresponding to other animals in its "world", leopard geckos, with a heat pad in their section of the "world", collared lizards that should climb and bask, baby sulcatas and a pair of mice (adam and Eve).

If someone who proposes that cares for the welfare of animals, they are not knowledgeable of the animals' basic needs. Conversely, if they are aware of the animals' needs, they have no concern for their welfare.

Andy Via

Actually Andy,the initial point of this thread was an individual asking for info on off The Ark.That was the initial point.I gave my personal experience with Vinny.So no,I was not missing the point.

 

[viandy]

If I asked about a store and was told it was clean, well maintained, and stocked with illegal merchandise, it's the latter information that would be of must interest to me. Don't you think that's something important to know?

 

[rlmcritters]

Actually Andy, Bigtiger is correct, the first question was about any dealings, not about bashing. Chesterfield was there today and they were satisfied and the State makes their normal inspections. Proper permits are in place and there are more legal permits for crocodilians(sp) than you are aware of. Hope you don't get offened by this reply as I have considered you a friend in the past. There are lots of venomous around in collections. Your ex boss had them in his house! See you around.

 

[rlmcritters]

As a side note, I have read the "quote" from the dog catcher on page 2 several times and had a legal friend read it. No where does it say venomous snakes can not be kept. It clearly says exotic and wild animals. The venomous snakes is implied only and just his or her interpretation and there for can't really be enforced. They don't like it, but it can't be said to be illegal. Why do you think the guy that got bit by his albino exotic pet wasn't prosecuted. Just my take on that ordinance.

Regards, Randy

 

[snakewrangler]

If he's not breaking the law, he's not breaking the law. Fair enough. I still thnk his idea of a collared lizard/sulcata/leopard gecko/tarantula/rodent habitat is idiotic.

 

[Serafim]

Andy are you 100% sure these animals were Wc from Virginia. Because according to the the code of Virginia

Under the section Other Regulations & Guidelines Regarding Buying and Selling Wildlife it states:

Because the Lacey Act restricts the interstate transport of birds and other animals, federal laws prohibit moving fish and wildlife into the state if they were illegally taken elsewhere. Therefore, if you make a wildlife purchase from an out-of-state supplier, the species must have been legally collected, propagated, and/or sold according to the laws of that state.

So if those Boxies came from a state where they are not protected and they were collected and sold according to the other states laws It appears to be legal. Not defending Off the Ark Im just trying to be partial.

 

[Serafim]

As a side note, I have read the "quote" from the dog catcher on page 2 several times and had a legal friend read it. No where does it say venomous snakes can not be kept. It clearly says exotic and wild animals. The venomous snakes is implied only and just his or her interpretation and there for can't really be enforced. They don't like it, but it can't be said to be illegal. Why do you think the guy that got bit by his albino exotic pet wasn't prosecuted. Just my take on that ordinance.

Regards, Randy

If the venomous snake is not indigenous to Virginia or The county it is an exotic species / Animal.

The venomous snakes is implied only and just his or her interpretation and there for can't really be enforced.

If you are not going to name your legal source that is third party information and Violates the rules of the BOI...

 

[viandy]

I stand corrected.

Well, my knowledge of the law is obviously lacking, and I apologize for that. Whenever I put things on the BOI I try to make them strictly factual, and it seems like I am off target in this case. I certainly have no argument with you, Randy, about this. If I'm wrong about the state and local codes, well, I apologize. I was speaking in ignorance and I stand corrected.
Given my personal interaction with the store's owner, I don't support him and couldn't recommend him. Having someone lie to me doesn't make me want to do business with them. The "biosphere" thread makes me shudder.
I will definitely do more research before I post a "fact", it seems I didn't do a very good job of it this time.
Andy Via

 

[ruby]

Andy are you 100% sure these animals were Wc from Virginia.
....

So if those Boxies came from a state where they are not protected and they were collected and sold according to the other states laws It appears to be legal. Not defending Off the Ark Im just trying to be partial.

The way this has been explained to me by VA Game officials is that it is illegal to sell any non-game/protected species that is native to Virginia, regardless of whether or not it was WC, CB, imported from out-of-state originally, or what ever: if it is a species native to VA, it cannot be sold (certain exceptions apply).

 

[Serafim]

So their own state law enforcement code is open for interpretation. It is obvious if the guy is selling them and has been inspected by the county and commonwealth their may be some type of grey area.

 

[ruby]

A quote from the VA DGIF website:

Possession, importation, sale, etc. of wild animals

It is unlawful to take, possess, import, cause to be imported, export, cause to be exported, buy, sell, offer for sale, or liberate within the Commonwealth any wild animals unless otherwise specifically permitted by law or regulation. It is unlawful to destroy or molest the nest, eggs, dens, or young of any wild bird or wild animal, except nuisance species*, at any time without a permit. It is unlawful to collect animal parts, such as feathers, claws, bones, and antlers, without a permit (4 VAC 15-30-10 and §29.1-521).

* Nuisance species: house mouse, Norway rat, black rat, coyote, feral hog, nutria, woodchuck, European starling, English (house) sparrow, and pigeon (rock dove) (4 VAC 15-20-160).

Taking aquatic invertebrates, amphibians, reptiles, and nongame fish for private use**

It is lawful to collect and possess live for private use** only, and not for sale, no more than 5 individuals of any non-listed species of amphibian and reptile, and no more than 20 individuals of any non-listed species of aquatic invertebrate and nongame fish (4 VAC 15-360-10). Non-listed terrestrial invertebrates may be taken in unlimited numbers for private use** only.

* ** private use means for use in the home, not for scientific or educational purposes (which requires a permit).



Hope that helps.

 

[Serafim]

Good point but They specifically mention wild not captive bred. Please read the section I quoted earlier. It appears there is no clear law regarding selling species that are not wild. If you use the logic that all species that are indigenous to Virginia are illegal to sell Corn Snakes and many rat snake species would be illegal to sell. Not to mention other reptiles that are sold legally in Virginia on a daily basis.

 

[ruby]

Thanks. I understand the point that you are trying to make.

They are apparently making a distinction between wild (animals found in the wild in VA) and domesticated species (dogs, cats, cattle, horses, etc.), not between wild (WC) and captive bred (CB) species. Again, that is how the issue has been explained to me by state DGIF officials.

To give you an example:

I have a few Eastern box turtles: I cannot legally sell them, or their captive bred offspring, in or out of state, by virtue of the fact that the turtles in my possession are native to VA, and occur here in the wild.



Regards

 

[ruby]

Here's a more complete quote from the DGIF website:
"
# The DGIF is now issuing permits to licensed pet stores and captive breeders for them to sell three species of captive-bred snakes (4 VAC 15-360-50): eastern kingsnake, mole kingsnake, and corn snake. No other snakes native to Virginia can be bought or sold in Virginia, and there are size limits as to what can be sold.
# No threatened or endangered species may be bought or sold for any purposes at any time, whether dead or alive, including their parts.
# Because the Lacey Act restricts the interstate transport of birds and other animals, federal laws prohibit moving fish and wildlife into the state if they were illegally taken elsewhere. Therefore, if you make a wildlife purchase from an out-of-state supplier, the species must have been legally collected, propagated, and/or sold according to the laws of that state. "


So, as I mentioned previously, there are certain exceptions.


You can all read more here:


http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/laws/buyingselling.asp

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/permits/guide.asp


I think that the best thing for anyone to do would be to contact the appropriate official at VA DGIF and get the facts.

Cheers!

 

[Serafim]

Actually Andy, Bigtiger is correct, the first question was about any dealings, not about bashing. Chesterfield was there today and they were satisfied and the State makes their normal inspections. Proper permits are in place and there are more legal permits for crocodilians(sp) than you are aware of. Hope you don't get offened by this reply as I have considered you a friend in the past. There are lots of venomous around in collections. Your ex boss had them in his house! See you around.

I believe that the Box Turtle is considered a protected species in Virginia. Its been some years since I have lived in the commonwealth so I may be wrong. My point was inregards to the earler posts about them selling illegal wild caught specimens.

None of the reports of them selling wild caught specimens have been proven yet. I am not defending off the Ark as I have read some of the owners ramblings. I just would like to see proof that Of the ark went and collected reptiles from the wild and sold them. Thanks for your input Ruby

 

[ruby]

I believe that the Box Turtle is considered a protected species in Virginia. Its been some years since I have lived in the commonwealth so I may be wrong. My point was inregards to the earler posts about them selling illegal wild caught specimens.

None of the reports of them selling wild caught specimens have been proven yet. I am not defending off the Ark as I have read some of the owners ramblings. I just would like to see proof that Of the ark went and collected reptiles from the wild and sold them. Thanks for your input Ruby

You are correct: the status of the Eastern Box Turtles is non-game/protected, as is the status of many other species in VA, including black rat snakes, Eastern Hognose snakes, Eastern Painted Turtles, Copperheads, etc.

Again, according to the state official that I've spoken to, and according to the DGIF literature I have already posted here, it is illegal to sell VA native species....regardless of their provinance.

In other words, it apparently doesn't matter if the specimens being sold are WC or not.

 

[snakewrangler]

yes, but it looks as if nobody is going to do anything about it.

 

[Serafim]

That is the problem Seth non enforcement of the law. And what I was trying to say earlier ruby is this. What if it was a painted turtle for example and it was captive born in florida or North Carolina. Is it illegal to sell it just because its a Native species to Virginia. Im just curious because it makes little sense to not allow imports. And how could they prove it wasn't wild caught in Virginia. The whole wording to their law is not clear because it states wild caught in Virginia.

 

[snakewrangler]

yeah, you're right. When I spoke with the folks at Chesterfield Co., they seemed genuinely concerned, but then I read the post about the county actually going down there and everything checking out. The only reason I got involved in this thread is because I do not want the freedoms that I have in my home state regarding reptile ownership to be threatened because of a few people or their actions.

If the proper authorities went to the store and everything checked out, I'm satisfied. It is not going to change my mind that something is fishy with this operation.

The 'biosphere' thread was way out in left field, and I cringe to think about his 'summer camp' activities, i.e. 'venomous demonstration' whatever that means.

 

[ruby]

I understand that County officials have been notified, but have the appropriate officials at the State level been contacted? They would be the ones with the authority to enforce State laws....

Ruby