OK, I have had enough..

[DThomas]

Would expressing one's opinion on this justify a ban? Just asking...

It's never been about expressing one's opinion. That has always been allowed and encouraged. The problem has been how a few have chosen to express that opinion.

 

[DAND]

It's never been about expressing one's opinion. That has always been allowed and encouraged. The problem has been how a few have chosen to express that opinion.

I can't see why that is so hard to understand.

 

[RangerGrrl]

Thank you, Rich. I got on here today after work and was a little sickened by some of the things people have been posting. I really don't come here to read that kind of thing. I DID notice that the ones making me totally disgusted are the ones that are now banned. THat works out for me.

So, kudos to you.

 

[bcfos]

I think the main issue is this. Constructive criticism is one thing, but poping up at every turn to say something is bad or that you don't agree with something or even worse that you can do a better job of running the site just won't be tolerated anymore.

So I know some of you will be going the way of the dodo bird if you don't "tow the line".

 

[jglass38]

It depends. Check your last dozen posts or so and weigh carefully how you say what you want to say.

I'll just say this. I really don't think anything I say will have any effect on you or how you run your site. I think what has happened here in the last year is to the detriment of Fauna as a site and the community as a whole (and if you don't think that MANY others outside of the group of 'yes' men/women that exist here don't firmly believe that, then you are quite mistaken). Most of the shine is gone from what was formerly a great site and this is the wrong way to go about getting it back. It is what it is though..

 

[Stardust]

OMG Brian, you said words to a song that I have been trying to remember for year
Funny where you can get your answers from

 

[Chameleon Company]

No surprise ....

Jamie speaks:

I think what has happened here in the last year is to the detriment of Fauna as a site and the community as a whole (and if you don't think that MANY others outside of the group of 'yes' men/women that exist here don't firmly believe that, then you are quite mistaken).

Refering to the "yes men/women" seems a bit of a slap, followed by that ESP thing again where its not enough to render ones own opinion, but now must also divine the thoughts of others. The implication would seem to be that if we are OK with things, and don't agree with your "detriment thing", we must be "yes men/women"? I would suggest that the need to have that "dig" in just about every post is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

This probably won't be very popular with many of the people here, but I think it's worth mentioning.

I've been watching all of the nonsense that has been going on lately and started thinking about what might have been some of the causes of the in-fighting here.

It used to be that the membership here would go after the bad guys and always manage to get them to either slip up and expose their practices, or simply make them go away. Either way, people coming to this site could easily find out what they needed to know about a potential seller.

Lately, it seems that there is more energy being spent on flaming each other or the site itself. At first I thought, maybe we're just running low on bad guys because the people here have been so successful exposing them. Without the bad guys to go after, the strong personalities here were turning on each other. This may be true to a point, but I don't think it is really the case.

One thing keeps coming back to me however - Karma points!

In my opinion, and I'll stress "my opinion"I think the implementation of the Karma point system has had a detrimental effect on this site. Putting aside the abuse of the karma system itself, I feel that some people here may take a harder line against someone because they are seeking the approval of their peers here. It's kind of like the bully on the playground who is seeking approval through his actions.

Since this site was originally setup as a watchdog site for the reptile trade, I think that the Trader Ratings are a much more appropriate benchmark for the members here.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here, or does this make any sense?

 

[kmurphy]

I think what has happened here in the last year is to the detriment of Fauna as a site and the community as a whole (and if you don't think that MANY others outside of the group of 'yes' men/women that exist here don't firmly believe that, then you are quite mistaken).

I guess I am on the yes men side because I am sick of the drama that has played out in the past few weeks and I agree with this move. Evidently unhappy people are that way primarily because everyone else is happy. So they try to make everyone else miserable.
I am a father of 3 and in my house I make the rules. If you can't live by the rules then there's the door. It is pretty simple really.

 

[Casey Hulse]

I think what has happened here in the last year is to the detriment of Fauna as a site and the community as a whole (and if you don't think that MANY others outside of the group of 'yes' men/women that exist here don't firmly believe that, then you are quite mistaken). Most of the shine is gone from what was formerly a great site and this is the wrong way to go about getting it back.

If you would stop posting this type of comment all the time.....Oh well, nevermind.. see ya.

 

[jglass38]

If you would stop posting this type of comment all the time.....Oh well, nevermind.. see ya.

I'm trying to get at the heart of the issues which have not in any way been solved or addressed.

 

[Casey Hulse]

I'm trying to get at the heart of the issues which have not in any way been solved or addressed

You need to remember, that this is only your opinion, not necessarily what is really important at this point. The value of the BOI and Fauna in general is what I think is the issue, not whether or not the site is run the way I want it to be run. And this is my opinion

 

[Griz]

One thing keeps coming back to me however - Karma points!

In my opinion, and I'll stress "my opinion"I think the implementation of the Karma point system has had a detrimental effect on this site. Putting aside the abuse of the karma system itself, I feel that some people here may take a harder line against someone because they are seeking the approval of their peers here. It's kind of like the bully on the playground who is seeking approval through his actions.

Since this site was originally setup as a watchdog site for the reptile trade, I think that the Trader Ratings are a much more appropriate benchmark for the members here.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here, or does this make any sense?

I could not agree more with that statement! Something that was meant to be so innocent.........

Griz

 

[Griz]

I'll just say this. I really don't think anything I say will have any effect on you or how you run your site. I think what has happened here in the last year is to the detriment of Fauna as a site and the community as a whole (and if you don't think that MANY others outside of the group of 'yes' men/women that exist here don't firmly believe that, then you are quite mistaken). Most of the shine is gone from what was formerly a great site and this is the wrong way to go about getting it back. It is what it is though..

Jamie, if the shine is gone then why are you still here? The people that remain are determined to continue the efforts to maintain the shine that we feel still exists. Maybe your glasses have become too tinted through various arguements etc. But, instead of being one of the problems, why don't you become part of the solution?

It's good to see the Chief step up and be the Chief. I commend you on the decision.

Griz

 

[Stardust]

IMHO I believe it started on trying to build up the rest of the site instead of just the BOI. Sure there was a lot of drama on the BOI but, again IMHO and with speaking with him back then, that he would have liked to see more people contributing to the forums and advertising areas of buying and selling.
I thought that was a great idea and still do and would like to see that. Perhaps some of the "junk" "off topics" (just phrases for lack of a better word or words) got to be too much and the drama went out of control and emotions got way too involved.
Make people feel welcome but don't bog down the site with trivial stuff, there was enough stuff before (sound off, a joke place ect for people to go) so the spotlight shifted from the legit reptile forums to non-sense forums.
Effort perhaps should have been made into having the reptile forums a good community to go to instead of for instance LH. Sure it brought traffic but not what I would call the right kind or what I believe Rich was originally trying to do (not putting words in your mouth Rich, just what I got out of the initial gist of things)
Slick little things like getting another hit because the thread only shows five posts (which by the way can be changed in the cp) and the person has to click again to turn the page so to speak just won't cut it in the long run.
I have seen Rich try and get awefully frustrated at not getting what was invisioned, can't fault a person for trying.
What ever happened to building up the reptile forums instead of this other stuff? Or have they and I am totally off base here as I have not been here?



Off topic again: SORRY for the o/t post a bit ago, but I am sure most know what it is like to have something in their head that eludes them and how frustrating that can be. When Brian posted that it triggered the song that has been eluding me for years lol, now is off morpheus and on my mp3 player for good

 

[Chameleon Company]

Briefly Mike, many of us have expressed the exact opposite views about the "good old days", as flame wars and hijackings were rampant. Its been documented throughout, and was a reason for Rich's crackdown late last year. More recently, many of us have pushed for the outright banning of folks who Rich deemed worthless here, including a "banned" merit badge audition.

Chris Johnson blows away your trader-rating argument, and his example supports the recent protocol of attaching those "special" posts one makes to their "good guy" posts, which I support as well. This was a factor in Alan Hall's recent resurrection so that he could be drop-kicked out of here. Rep points and karma are in the eyes of the beholder, and I don't think are expected to mean much with regards to business acumen.

Jamie, there are many accomplished people in this site. I do not want to speak for "the masses", but can reference a dozen or so in my mind right now whom I have had specific conversations with about Fauna, and every one lists the sniping and hijacking of topics as the number one reason they do not post here more often. Far from being lemmings (you used the "Yes men/women" expression), these are people whose names are well known, who are published, etc. I would say that their views are thoroughly contrary to yours, and I do not believe a single one achieved the levels they have by being a lemming. From what I know of lemmings, I frankly see that description applying to the group that Rich often refers to as the "usual suspects".

 

[Bill_Leverton]

This probably won't be very popular with many of the people here, but I think it's worth mentioning.

I've been watching all of the nonsense that has been going on lately and started thinking about what might have been some of the causes of the in-fighting here.

It used to be that the membership here would go after the bad guys and always manage to get them to either slip up and expose their practices, or simply make them go away. Either way, people coming to this site could easily find out what they needed to know about a potential seller.

Lately, it seems that there is more energy being spent on flaming each other or the site itself. At first I thought, maybe we're just running low on bad guys because the people here have been so successful exposing them. Without the bad guys to go after, the strong personalities here were turning on each other. This may be true to a point, but I don't think it is really the case.

One thing keeps coming back to me however - Karma points!

In my opinion, and I'll stress "my opinion"I think the implementation of the Karma point system has had a detrimental effect on this site. Putting aside the abuse of the karma system itself, I feel that some people here may take a harder line against someone because they are seeking the approval of their peers here. It's kind of like the bully on the playground who is seeking approval through his actions.

Since this site was originally setup as a watchdog site for the reptile trade, I think that the Trader Ratings are a much more appropriate benchmark for the members here.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here, or does this make any sense?

Excellent thought Mike and no I don't think you are off base, I'd love to see this place get back to where it once was.

 

[Stardust]

Briefly Mike, many of us have expressed the exact opposite views about the "good old days", as flame wars and hijackings were rampant. Its been documented throughout, and was a reason for Rich's crackdown late last year. More recently, many of us have pushed for the outright banning of folks who Rich deemed worthless here, including a "banned" merit badge audition.

Chris Johnson blows away your trader-rating argument, and his example supports the recent protocol of attaching those "special" posts one makes to their "good guy" posts, which I support as well. This was a factor in Alan Hall's recent resurrection so that he could be drop-kicked out of here. Rep points and karma are in the eyes of the beholder, and I don't think are expected to mean much with regards to business acumen.

Jamie, there are many accomplished people in this site. I do not want to speak for "the masses", but can reference a dozen or so in my mind right now whom I have had specific conversations with about Fauna, and every one lists the sniping and hijacking of topics as the number one reason they do not post here more often. Far from being lemmings (you used the "Yes men/women" expression), these are people whose names are well known, who are published, etc. I would say that their views are thoroughly contrary to yours, and I do not believe a single one achieved the levels they have by being a lemming. From what I know of lemmings, I frankly see that description applying to the group that Rich often refers to as the "usual suspects".

There really needs to be a middle ground from the "old days" and now. Times change and one must change with it (or not and stay stagnant)
There is not much difference between then and now, just different people. Hell even Neil served his purpose here good or bad. Not everyone is going to agree, it's the ganging up that somehow can not be stopped. Also, depending on who you like and who you don't like becomes clear when two people do the same thing, one gets defended and one gets bashed.
It is all apart of being on a big site. Ritchie Luna I disagreed with but for the most part he got the job done as did Wes(whom I also at times disagreed with on tactics)
You have hard heads and whimps and all that is in the middle.
Slapping tons of restrictions, fines, bans, karma is not the answer, there is always more coming in and it is a never ending battle. I have said it before and will say it now to any person owning a site such as this, I do not envy you, the work is over the top, not to mentions the emotions that endlessly change.
Unfortunately the very good trustworthy people do not want to deal with being a mod, and how do you REALLY know who to trust? Trial and error.
This site is not for nicey nicey, it is a real site with real people with many opinions which should be able to be voiced like the "old days". Let little communities stitch out their little spot IN THE reptile forum of their knowledge and expertise so they can help the newbies.
Since when did fauna become this flimsy nicey nicey site? Save that for the forums, rules set individually on the forums. Keep the BOI what is was and still should be.
Again all my opinion and perhaps a suggestion or two in there.
Yes I know there are kinks in my ideas.

 

[Stardust]

Afterthought, one in which I intended to address and got caught up.
Karen is not a bad person. I do not think anything should happen to her for giving her opinions. Of course not everyone is going to agree. At least she has the balls(not really) to express herself and not be afraid of repricutions, so what she if there is nothing there then no one would be angry. Perhaps Lucille as she did with me brings out the worst in what otherwise would be a good person. Those 's tend to see just who is who around here.
Kudos to Karen. I wish more would stand up and speak even against the grain she is one I can respect for being honest, I can't say that for everyone

 

[Chameleon Company]

Rozann.
Speaking only for myself, I do not think that Karen's downfall was "speaking against the grain", for which you credit her with guts. I think it was her lack of tact, at times exceedingly so. My experience is that anyone can rant, complain, etc, and it is not a talent. It is what we expect of kids, and work to discipline so that they can survive in the social circles they will need to invfluence. Without the ability to manage it, it is nothing but a vice. Sorry, but we are miles apart on the self-accountability thing.