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OK, let's talk about the biggest problem in the business of ball pythons

E

evansnakes

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I found a perfect example today on that other site in the classifieds. http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=439870
Headline of post for sale "male desert ghost/blurry ball". I was curious right away that apparently the snake could either be a $10,000 animal or a $500 animal and the guy who bought it didn't know which. So I read the post.

He said it is captive bred by Ralph Davis. I aksed him about that. He then said (paraphrased), I bought it at a reptile show from a guy who told me Ralph Davis produced it but I do not have a receipt from him or the one from Ralph.

He then posted that info and lowered the price (still no pics) in the same ad it may be a ghost now and that the color is "blurry desert, red blushing black fade." WHAT? I have no idea what that meant and I mentioned to him that he may want to drop the post and figure out what it was that he had. His answer was to post more bizarre text and lower the price again. Now according to him, it may be a dersert ghost, a ghost, or a recessive blurry.

So what is the point of me hurting your brain with this guys info? This is becoming a giant problem for anyone who buys/sells/breeds ball pythons. It is one thing when somebody will clearly post that it is from Africa and has no idea what it is. It is another when you keep changing stories to try to dig yourself out of a hole you made by trying to sell an animal as something it isn't to make money from people who either don't know any better or are too trusting.

Sights will not typically pull ads from people that are guilty of this and that is life. It is kind of natural selection of ball buyers from a Darwin standpoint, but you really need to do your homework and know your stuff for your own protection. There are so many sites on the net where people will have a pic of each animal proven or not and list all the characteristics that set it off as being what it is (example: odd or two colored eyes, strange colored tongue, belly pattern or lack of, head color, etc..). Knowing these traits or markers exist will go a long way to help you weed out the idiots and the thieves for the most part.

I am not a huge proponent on "paperwork" for alot of things. It is great to get hets that come with something in writing from somebody backing them up but if they are proven in the business to be trustworthy that is not the big concern. Guys like the one above are talking about needing paperwork for a visual morph that he bought and can't identify. If I guessed I would say Ralph did not produce it and it is not anything of value and either this character got taken by the guy who sold it to him or he is just throwing out stories to help him rip somebody off. The old saying applies, if it seems too good to be true it probably is. And if it walks like a duck... you know the rest. Anyway guys, do your due dilligence/research and know what you are looking at or getting into.
 
Evan,

I'm not sure if this is the biggest problem, but it's certainly one of the most fustrating. Great post overall, it's definately something for all to be concerned with..

- Vic
 
Think before you buy.

Evan, i have seen this type of thing and also that a few years ago when the ch babies started showing up. in large numbers alot of the importers and the pickers in florida started nameing the normal imports. just to charge a few extra dollars.

It got to a point that i did not want to buy captive bred balls from anyone from florida, fearing that what i was really recieving were captive hatched. Those ch babies changed alot of people into liars.

Even to this day. there are still alot of people trying to sell those imported yellow bellies as het. ivorys, even thought they have not been proven to produce Ivorys.

BUYER BEWARE. :yesnod:
 
Too Many.

I do think that the biggest problem that presents itself to us as breeders of ball pythons, is the fact that we all want a bigger piece of that pie and are over producing these ball pythons big time ! :shrug01:
 
Too many people label a BP some new morph when it is nothing more than a "different" looking normal.

I cannot stand the ads that say "something is going on here" and "I hate to sell it but whoever buys it can prove it out".
If you have what you think is a genuine new morph, why the hell are you selling it? Prove it out and make a LOT more in the long run.

If it's not proven, it's not a morph IMO.

I have a few that I am dinking around with. Maybe they will prove out and maybe not. If not, they will be let go as nothing more than pretty normals. If they do prove out, then I am fortunate.

Too many people try and stick a name and a high price on things.

The best one I have seen lately is the axanthic on KS. It's an import and unproven, but since it looks similiar to a real axanthic, then it must be one. He compares it to his genuine one and says it looks better. Well, if you are so sure it is an axanthic and don't need 2, sell the real one and keep the import.
 
Ed Clark said:
I do think that the biggest problem that presents itself to us as breeders of ball pythons, is the fact that we all want a bigger piece of that pie and are over producing these ball pythons big time ! :shrug01:
Click to expand...

Unfortunately Ed, there is nothing we can do about that. In a previous post, I pointed out that since the 1980's when I started keeping snakes i've seen fads come and go. The corn fad in the '80's, the Boas in the '90's (and somewhat now), and now the Balls into today. And like anything else, as these fads come and go more and more people buy the animals that sell to hopefully yield some profits.

I think one of the biggest problems is the determination of "value" for a given animal. Let's use the Spider Ball for an example. When Kevin McCurly released the first few into the populas they were astromomically priced. Now, you can easily pick one up for about $1000. Why? Simply supply and demand. Spiders, Mojave's, Pastels, etc. are co-dom genes so when there is a huge supply of animals with somewhat steady demand the price is driven down. Now a simple-recessive morph like the Albino has retained it's value for some time, and will continue to because it's harder to make more of them....

I'm not going to get into all the specifics on this subject, as i'm sure this has been discussed in greater details more than anything. But what I will say is that the Ball Market in my humble opinion is still strong, and will remain that way for some time. You just have to be aware that some animals will decrease in value, while others will retain theirs for many years due to simple supply and demand, genetic characteristics, and many other contributory factors.

- Vic
 
Vic., I agree with your post. especially when you say that the ball python market is still strong. What i have been seeing for awhile now is an influx of younger hobbiest, that are very enthusiastic about adding new ball pythons into their growing collections. not unlike you and I were years ago. difference is these younger people now have credit cards to make purchases with and do. yes the ball python market is alive and well. with the now lower prices, that makes it even better in terms of a younger collector being able to afford the bp morph of his dreams. :yesnod:
 
Indeed, Ed. :) (although I do have to point out that his dreams can also be HER dreams as well)
The ball python market will be as strong as the people who love the breed. Those who choose to be educated about them will prosper, and those who are in for a quick buck may become sorely dissapointed.
Fads are what they are.
I honestly jumped on the bandwagon too (which most did at some point in their lives), but I have not succumbed to what most people do as a main profit venture. I do it cause I find joy in it. That should be the bottom line.

And as for the fake morphs, they come around every day. I just know I will never be the one to buy into it, and most people who know better won't either.

There are people out there who don't, and that is who these people prey on. It is what it is. Just keep your arms and heart open to people with questions, answer honestly, and we will have a better buisness in the long run.
 
I think people that are clueless about genetics

are far from the "biggest" problem in the Ball Business. Sure, the ads are annoying, but once the name gets seared into your mind as one of the
Dipsh!ts selling animals they know nothing about, you just do not open anymore of their ads. There are about 10 companies that I do not even bother to look at their ads anymore....something about Het Spiders, Het Fires, Axanthics that are obviously normal, or at least not worth the price, fake Pied Hets, people that put a name to describe EVERY CH Ball they have for sale......annoying, yes, biggest problem in Balls, I do not think so.

Dave
 
David Reid said:
are far from the "biggest" problem in the Ball Business. Sure, the ads are annoying, but once the name gets seared into your mind as one of the
Dipsh!ts selling animals they know nothing about, you just do not open anymore of their ads. There are about 10 companies that I do not even bother to look at their ads anymore....something about Het Spiders, Het Fires, Axanthics that are obviously normal, or at least not worth the price, fake Pied Hets, people that put a name to describe EVERY CH Ball they have for sale......annoying, yes, biggest problem in Balls, I do not think so.

Dave
Click to expand...

I don't think it's necessarily those that are "clueless" about the genetics that are a problem, it would be those who understand them and still insist on trying to market unproven CH and WC as new morphs, when they haven't been proven. Fake hets......don't even get me started, lol.
 
Ed Clark said:
What i have been seeing for awhile now is an influx of younger hobbiest, that are very enthusiastic about adding new ball pythons into their growing collections. not unlike you and I were years ago. difference is these younger people now have credit cards to make purchases with and do. yes the ball python market is alive and well. with the now lower prices, that makes it even better in terms of a younger collector being able to afford the bp morph of his dreams. :yesnod:
Click to expand...

Well said Ed, once again I really enjoy reading your commentary. :thumbsup:

As with any new developing market, a few people are going to label their animals as being "special" or "het for nothing." Remember the het. for Hypo boas back in the late 90's?

:rofl:

That was hysterical, especially when plenty of breeders said the morph was a co-dom, while other larger ones (I won't mention names) rode the het. bandwagon as long as they could for quick cash. Meanwhile, people sucked up these animals looking for the next best thing.

In all honesty Ed, i'm no expert like Tracy Barker who can pick out something different out of a 1000 normal looking animals. Many of these breeders have a gift, but moreso experience to know what to look for, and more importantly WHAT TO CLAIM. I see all too often new breeders calling their animals these new names and laugh at them. However, the silent persistant breeder who takes the time to PROVE the morph should be commended for not trying to make the "quick buck." In essence, they actually fair better in the long run by selling more animals, and building a reputation as a dedicated breeder vs. a fly-by-night operation.

:ack2:

My strategy is simple, I buy the animals I like, and what I think will make a nicer looking animal in the future. People freaked out about Pastel prices going down, not me, I bought $3,000 worth of females this year. I also love the simple-recessive morphs, and I like the challenge of producing an even rarer animal. For example, i'm working on a Caramel Albino-Pied project with my snake partner, why? Because we love both animals.

You don't have to worry about me trying to "re-invent" another animal. I'll just ride the train and enjoy my own projects and let the "other guys" come up with the clever names.

- Vic
 
I have sold animals that looked different as normals because I never wanted to claim they were something they may not be. Over the years that has bit me in the arse.

I sold a female YB as a really cool looking CH normal for $150 about 3 years ago. It got snatched up within 1 hour of posting it. At the time I did not know what to look for with YB's. I thought it might have been one but back then, they were not mainstream like they are now and the markers were not known to me enough to say with certainty that it was a YB. This person did and grabbed it. Even sent me a pic last year of the ivory they produced using her - SOB wouldn't cut me a good deal on it though :( -said it was my fault for selling cheap. Guess he is right.

My point is I would rather not label something as genetic if I am not 100 percent sure. Normls are very variable and if it is an import it makes it even harder to tell if it is genetic or not. I would rather sell it as a pretty normal even if it means not making as much as I could on the deal.

Not everyone looks at it that way and will try to milk as much out of inexperienced or new buyers with hopes of getting a morph.

Anyone remember the het spider ads?
 
One of the biggest problems is people selling pastels for $200.. Then you have 2-3 people on here posting and lowering every day. You guys are the problem IMHO!
 
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