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OMG! I hatched a two-headed dragon!

Valley Dragons

Valley Dragons

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Well, the title pretty much says it all. I hatched my first live, apparently healthy, two-headed dragon. He (or they) are a bit sleepy, but not too bad at all considering. I noticed that one of my babies was having trouble getting out of the egg. He kept straining and wiggling his head around, so I decided to help him. And out popped another head! This baby was produced by my red/gold sandfire x peach hypo female, Akira. She produced a few two-heads for me last year, but they died in the egg. She also produced a high number of twins. I bred her to a different male this year to see if it was possibly genetic or just a fluke, and I am seeing twinning again - and now a live two-head. Her genetics are intriguing to me...it seems that the gene for twins is perhaps co-dominant (I'm not sure if this would be correct...I am no genetics expert) since she produces some twins no matter who she is bred to. I am extremely anxious to see if her offspring will carry the "twin" gene, if it does indeed exist. Well, enough blabbing, here are some pictures...

Jamie
 

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Valley Dragons said:
Haha. I'm half surprised that you did not blame it on adenovirus.

Jamie :)
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Does that seem like something I am particularly likely to do?

Given the information you have posted, my guess- and please understand that it's strictly a guess- is that the female has a tendency to ovulate improperly, resulting in excessivly common twinning. It might be genetic, although it's more likely something physiological- either way, it's grossly negligent to continue to breed her with the knowledge that twinning is (apparantly) more likely. Double the neonates, the same volume of yolk, the possibility to produce twisted and deformed conjoined offspring...

Basically nothing to be proud of, certainly nothing to brag about. Shove that one in the freezer and never breed the female who produced it again.
 
Jesus, and I thought I was an asshole sometimes lol...

Congrats Jamie. While it probably will not make it I'd give it a chance, at least see what quality of life will be before you freeze it.
 
heartmountain said:
Jesus, and I thought I was an asshole sometimes lol...

Congrats Jamie. While it probably will not make it I'd give it a chance, at least see what quality of life will be before you freeze it.
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Thank you, Sean. I plan to give it a chance, but of course it will be euthanized if it is sickly or has a poor quality of life. But if it lives, it would be pretty cool!

Seamus...you know where you can go...

Jamie
 
heartmountain said:
Jesus, and I thought I was an asshole sometimes lol...

Congrats Jamie. While it probably will not make it I'd give it a chance, at least see what quality of life will be before you freeze it.
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Its actually common sense if you care about the longevity of a species.

It might be a bit blunt, but its not wrong thinking.
 
Jamie- I would have to wait a few days and see myself. It really looks like they share one body starting at the neck. 4 legs...perhaps they could live this way.... Maybe...you never know...Take good care Jamie and keep us posted. B
 
Opinion's are like...

There are two sides to this coin.
The issue's of two headed dragons, twins sharing eggs, Hybrids, etc. are kinda moral issue's and vary depending on each individuals perception of right and wrong.

I can see why someone would want to double the odds of getting an Axanthic Bumblebee in a clutch, or producing a Pied LA by having twins in every egg. I can also see why others would be disgusted that the breeder would intentionally produce smaller offspring that may have more of a chance at having health issues and less of a chance at survival to increase their profit margin, or in lieu of patience in producing cutting edge morphs.

I can see why someone would want to cross Burms x Retic, Bloods x BP's, CRB x BRB/Dumerils, etc. to transfer desired traits of color, pattern, size, etc. I can also see why others would be concerned about the impure bloodlines from these projects getting into the majority of, or all of the pure collections of every line over time.

I can see why someone would want to produce a healthy and thriving double headed dragon, with a good quality of life. Even if it did not have much of a resale value, it would make an odd display animal, or even just a cool pet. I can also see why others would be outraged that the breeder would continue to breed an animal that consistently, if not genetically, produced deformed offspring that needed to be euthanized, simply trying to prove out the "twin gene."
 
RJK890 said:
There are two sides to this coin.
The issue's of two headed dragons, twins sharing eggs, Hybrids, etc. are kinda moral issue's and vary depending on each individuals perception of right and wrong.
Click to expand...

Very true. I know where my moral standards lie, and they may or may not be in line with what everyone else here considers right or wrong. I am excited and intrigued by genetics, including genetic variations. I see absolutely nothing wrong with choosing not to euthenize a two-headed bearded dragon AS LONG AS it is not in pain or struggling to live. I don't know...this little guy may not make it 3 more hours for all know...and at that point it is a non-issue. Do I plan to keep breeding this female that produced him? You bet your boots, I do. She may produce a few twins now and then, but she is a heck of a breeder, and makes big, healthy babies. Now if she produced clutches with a number of deformed, unhealthy freaks, then I would not breed her. That would be detrimental obviously.

This is the same argument that comes up time and time again regarding all types of genetic morphs or variations. I DON'T see a problem with the artistic manipulation of genes as long as the animal does not have a poor quality of life. Period. What constitutes a GOOD quality of life? Animals are happy if they are pain-free, have food to fill their bellies, a warm place to live, and someone to clean up their crap. Animals are not philosophical about happiness like people are. They don't sit around thinking, "Gee, I wonder if Fluffy over there thinks I look weird. Gee, I'm depressed now. Well, there goes my reason to live..." As long as they have their basic needs met...I don't see the problem. So there. I've drawn the line in the sand. You can hate me or agree with me...I don't really care, but you should respect the fact that I have to balls to be upfront about how I feel. :)

Jamie
 
RJK890 said:
There are two sides to this coin.
The issue's of two headed dragons, twins sharing eggs, Hybrids, etc. are kinda moral issue's and vary depending on each individuals perception of right and wrong.

I can see why someone would want to double the odds of getting an Axanthic Bumblebee in a clutch, or producing a Pied LA by having twins in every egg. I can also see why others would be disgusted that the breeder would intentionally produce smaller offspring that may have more of a chance at having health issues and less of a chance at survival to increase their profit margin, or in lieu of patience in producing cutting edge morphs.

I can see why someone would want to cross Burms x Retic, Bloods x BP's, CRB x BRB/Dumerils, etc. to transfer desired traits of color, pattern, size, etc. I can also see why others would be concerned about the impure bloodlines from these projects getting into the majority of, or all of the pure collections of every line over time.

I can see why someone would want to produce a healthy and thriving double headed dragon, with a good quality of life. Even if it did not have much of a resale value, it would make an odd display animal, or even just a cool pet. I can also see why others would be outraged that the breeder would continue to breed an animal that consistently, if not genetically, produced deformed offspring that needed to be euthanized, simply trying to prove out the "twin gene."
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Someplace hath just frozen over....I actually, for the most part....agree with Robert. :D

However, it's statements like this that tend to bother me....

Valley Dragons said:
she is a heck of a breeder, and makes big, healthy babies.
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A "heck of a breeder"? "Big, healthy babies"? You already told us that last year, she produced multiple babies that didn't survive. :shrug01:

I don't know, to me there's a big difference between breeding for color variations, and for things that may be detrimental to the health of the animals.

That said.....I wouldn't freeze the baby as long as he's healthy and not in any discomfort.....but I wouldn't continue to breed his mom either, just to satisfy my curiousity or find a way to make more babies and mo' money. :shrug01:
 
Congrats!

I hatched out a two headed blood red corn snake a couple of years ago. Sold it to someone who sold it to someone else. As far as I know, it's doing just fine now. If your dragon survives and is healthy, then it was meant to be.
 
Cat_72 said:
However, it's statements like this that tend to bother me....



A "heck of a breeder"? "Big, healthy babies"? You already told us that last year, she produced multiple babies that didn't survive. :shrug01:
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She produced 4 clutches last year. Of those 75 or so eggs, we lost 3 or 4 in the egg due to the twinning. I just don't think the odds are worth retiring her as a breeder.
 
Cat_72 said:
However, it's statements like this that tend to bother me....



A "heck of a breeder"? "Big, healthy babies"? You already told us that last year, she produced multiple babies that didn't survive. :shrug01:
Click to expand...

She produced 4 clutches last year. Of those 75 or so eggs, we lost 3 or 4 in the egg due to the twinning. I just don't think the odds are worth retiring her as a breeder. I never stated that we lost multiple babies...

Sorry, I tried to edit and add one more sentence, and I goofed it up, lol.
 
Valley Dragons said:
She produced a few two-heads for me last year, but they died in the egg.
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Multiple: having or involving or consisting of more than one part or entity or individual :shrug01:
 
Cat_72 said:
or find a way to make more babies and mo' money. :shrug01:
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Because this issue is brought up again and again in so many posts...

This statement annoys me. Mo' money. Ha. Since when did wanting to make money become such a horrible thing? I LOVE my job...breeding reptiles, that is. I am less than two weeks away from quitting my other job and focusing entirely on the breeding business. I've worked my ass off basically working two full time jobs for over three years to get to this point. Of course I want to make money! I want nothing more than to spend the rest of my life doing exactly what I want to do and being able to support my family in the process. Since when did it become the moral high road to not make money at your job? Good grief! And does this mean that I have no values, or that I care any less about the animals? Of course not! That is ridiculous!

Sorry to go off on a rant, but this forum is filled with way to many "moralistic" bullies, and I'm sick of it.

Jamie :NoNo:
 
Valley Dragons said:
Sorry to go off on a rant, but this forum is filled with way to many "moralistic" bullies, and I'm sick of it.

Jamie :NoNo:
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There are many other sites available if you are not happy with the way things are run here.

Otherwise, this comment is entirely unnecessary, and uncalled for. Fauna is, how Fauna is. Dont like it, Find somewhere else to post where everyone agrees and feels the same way about everything, and everything is happy and merry and covered in chocolate goodness.
 
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