Info on record / Debbie Prince

[Miss Tuniwha]

Its definitely in the genetic make up of Spiders and Caramels...there is no question about that.

Do they all display it so frequently that everyone sees it, would someone that does not know what to look for notice a slight twitch, cocked head or that bp crawling on its back in the dark while they are sleeping?

I was under the impression that it was only spiders, and spider crosses that had the wobbling/twisting issues, and that the caramel issue was kinking.

Either way, I do agree that unless you personally saw her caramel BEFORE shipping, you can not say that you KNOW she sold an ill snake.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Casey, I disagree with you on this.

Debbie Prince is not a good person sending a bp like this to Toni or anyone.

She sold that bp because she seen the problems and wanted to not lose any money so she shipped her problems to Toni.

The potential health issues are very real with all the unknowns involved with this ball python. there is no way this bp should have ever been sold to anyone.

Sorry, Ed, but how can YOU of all people take issue with Casey Hulse on this point?!?! I take issue with both buyer and seller here, but when Casey made an attempt to put a positive spin on a bad situation, even I refrained from comment. You opted to shoot some salty lemon juice into the paper cut that is this thread. That was unnecessary.

To use an oldie, but a goodie, don't you have some "Bad Guy" threads of your own to take care of?

 

[Ed Clark]

I was under the impression that it was only spiders, and spider crosses that had the wobbling/twisting issues, and that the caramel issue was kinking.

Either way, I do agree that unless you personally saw her caramel BEFORE shipping, you can not say that you KNOW she sold an ill snake.

The caramels have the same issues that spiders have plus spinal kinking.

I clearly stated it was my opinion about that caramel with issues.

Casey made an attempt to put a positive spin on a bad situation, even I refrained from comment. You opted to shoot some salty lemon juice into the paper cut that is this thread. That was unnecessary.

So anyone can offer their opinion as long as you like it?

I think many different opinions and points of view makes this a much better process.

 

[MikeCurtin]

I think many different opinions and points of view makes this a much better process.

Works for me! Care to explain the basis for your opinion? Unless you were there when Debbie packed the animal or had seen the animal and its condition while it was in Debbie's possession, the basis was not fact. Doesn't really matter what I like or dislike.

 

[Abby]

I'm glad that a solution has come of this. I think both sides were rocky, but I wouldn't call either side "bad guys".

 

[Tiger Lilly]

1. I'm glad to see that this has FINALLY been put on the road to resolution.

2. How did this become an Ed Clark thread? (I'm just sayin)

 

[RJK890]

Glad it's over.

If it had been a Spider instead of a Caramel and it was a wobble head, would y'all still think the heat had something to do with it even though the two normals on top and closest to the heat pack were fine?
I couldn't believe that the animal was going to be necropsied and tested for IBD. It is a great looking animal. How many Spiders and Spider Combos would be put down and tested if every one that wobbles were destroyed?
In my opinion that Caramel went into the box as a wobble head. Debbie did do the right thing in the end, even if it took this thread to get her to do it.
I'm glad that Dennis will be caring for this animal and keeping it from being put down for no good reason (If Toni has accepted that resolution?)
It's nice to see Dennis and some other people think of the animals and not just the ca$h value of them.

 

[Ed Clark]

Care to explain the basis for your opinion? Unless you were there when Debbie packed the animal or had seen the animal and its condition while it was in Debbie's possession

Of course I did not see Debbie put the bp in the box you silly rabbit.

What I have seen is far to many caramel albinos display the behavior just like that in the pics posted in this thread, I have had to put down caramels that were twisting, cork screwing, flipping over on their back and crawling upside down as bad as any spider ball. what I seen in the pics posted is the genetic defects of a caramel albino.

I posted about spider balls around 3-4 years ago, I was slammed hard by breeders that were trying to hide the genetic defects of spiders also by alot of people that owned them at that time. all said there were no problems with spiders... most now will tell you about the genetic problems with all spider balls.

Like I said I have seen the same problems plus spinal kinking in caramels.

That caramel was shipped knowing before hand about the genetic defects that snake was displaying. it should have never been shipped.

It certainly was not caused by a heat pack.

 

[Uroboros]

Of course I did not see Debbie put the bp in the box you silly rabbit.

That caramel was shipped knowing before hand about the genetic defects that snake was displaying. it should have never been shipped.

It certainly was not caused by a heat pack.

Neuro symptoms can be caused by overheating, that's right up there with second grade math.

 

[Masonexotics]

SNIP
It certainly was not caused by a heat pack.

Ed, please stop pretending you can know anything for certain. It COULD be heat or it COULD be genetic or it COULD be illness (etc etc).

For all you/we know the buyer or seller could have dropped the damn thing!

Interestingly i've seen plenty of caramels here in the UK and not one has had noticable neurological issues.

 

[KelliH]

I've never known of Caramel Albinos to have any neurological issues. Is there any documentation on this at all, or at least any other discussions about the topic anywhere?

 

[Ed Clark]

Neuro symptoms can be caused by overheating, that's right up there with second grade math.

Of course they can be, with any other bp morph except a spider I may have considered that. It was winter when this bp was shipped.....overheating in the winter caused by a heat pack. my opinion is no way.

Maybe you may have overlooked that there were other bp's that were shipped in the same box that arrived in good condition.

 

[Ed Clark]

Ed, please stop pretending you can know anything for certain. It COULD be heat or it COULD be genetic or it COULD be illness (etc etc).

For all you/we know the buyer or seller could have dropped the damn thing!

Interestingly i've seen plenty of caramels here in the UK and not one has had noticable neurological issues.

How can you say with any certainty that no one in the UK has seen any genetic problems with caramels? do you actually think anyone over there that is breeding and selling caramels will announce they have big problems in their collection?

It was not long ago that almost everyone was saying that their spiders had no head wobbles or any other genetic problems. guess what...its an excepted fact that spiders have big problems, just like the caramels are showing.

You can say it was heat or they dropped it on its head. I have a different opinion on what the problem is because I have first hand experience and have seen it many times.

 

[Masonexotics]

How can you say with any certainty that no one in the UK has seen any genetic problems with caramels? do you actually think anyone over there that is breeding and selling caramels will announce they have big problems in their collection?

Please take the time to actually read my post Ed, I said no such thing. I spoke from personal experience, nothing more. you're the only one here claiming to know anything for certain.

Read my post, thats not at all what I said, please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[BalloonzForU]

Maybe you may have overlooked that there were other bp's that were shipped in the same box that arrived in good condition.

There's a good explination on why just the caramel and not the other too.

Remember Toni said the caramel was loose when when she opened the box. Who knows how long it had been loose in there. If the snake it self had pulled down(she said one of the sides was pulled down) everything on top of it and had it's head agaisnt the heat pack, it very well could have gotten overheated and then when the damage was done and it went limp it could have become dead weight for a lack of a better term and that's why it was at the bottom when she opened the box.

 

[Masonexotics]

I'd like to make something clear for the benfit of Ed..

I am not saying it was definately heat damage, i'm not saying it definately wasn't.


******

Ed also keeps ignoring the box was foil insulated, that would have made a HUGE difference to the temperature in the SMALL box.

 

[Shadera]

As far as I can tell from the posts, the other two snakes shipped in the same box have not been professionally examined. Who's to say they don't have some degree of neurological issues from heat if that's indeed what happened?

And is the OP accepting of the offer of the MOs? How's the snake doing now?

 

[hhmoore]

Remember Toni said the caramel was loose when when she opened the box.

Actually, I don't recall that part...and I just did a quick look through the first page and didn't find it (I admit that I didn't spend a lot of time in the mess that was her first few posts).
In post #6, she said:

The only observations were from removing the animal from the bag at fed ex..noting it was limp and it didnt hold its head up...then drove home and took it out of its bag again and placed it in its tub

That statement would seem to contradict yours

 

[Ed Clark]

There's a good explination on why just the caramel and not the other too.

Remember Toni said the caramel was loose when when she opened the box. Who knows how long it had been loose in there. If the snake it self had pulled down(she said one of the sides was pulled down) everything on top of it and had it's head agaisnt the heat pack, it very well could have gotten overheated and then when the damage was done and it went limp it could have become dead weight for a lack of a better term and that's why it was at the bottom when she opened the box.

Interesting...dont you think a snake would crawl away from a heat source that it sensed too hot? being loose in the box would benefit the snake more than being contained.

With 1 side pulled down as you say would that not allow the small amount of heat in the box to dissipate?

Being on the bottom of the box is a natural location for a ball python to seek out.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

Interesting...dont you think a snake would crawl away from a heat source that it sensed too hot?

if they did, snakes would never have burn marks from hugging lamps and malfunctioning heat rocks/mats.