dprince
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I am working on posting my side of the story here, including ALL emails sent by both Toni and myself. The picture it paints is a little different than the one presented here. I'm going as fast as I can, sorry for the delay.
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Info on record / Debbie Prince
- Thread starter myminskins
- Start date
myminskins
New member
Debbie please be aware that I too have all other emails none of which show anything other than what has been stated . More of me telling you there is something wrong with the snake and that I am trying to find a vet ...while relaying info from other breeders and vet in Northern Ark .
It is sad that you would actually spend time and effort to paint a different pic .
You really should just do the right thing .
It is sad that you would actually spend time and effort to paint a different pic .
You really should just do the right thing .
KelliH
doesn't drink the koolaid
OK, what the heck is all the "flipped" business? Are you trying to say that Debbie bought these animals with the sole intention of reselling them for more money? I highly, highly doubt that. She probably purchased the snakes for her personal collection and then as many of us do changed her mind or needed the cash and decided to sell them. So now any time one of us buys a reptile from someone else and decides to sell it shortly thereafter are we to be known as "flippers"?!?
I've known Debbie for a few years now and have done business with her more than once. Each transaction we had was problem free, and I have been extremely happy with every animal I have ever received from her. I'm interested to hear Debbie's side of this.
dprince
New member
Thanks Harold for the heads up on this thread.
Here's my side of the story.
I am also posting all the emails between us, so you can see for yourselves what was said, and what was not. I'll fill in the blanks and correct inaccuracies between emails.
* I had ordered 3/4 foam inch boxes from Superior on 2/5 through their new website, but didn't receive the boxes until 2/19. (I'd had to call them because there was some mess up on the website, but that is another issue.) To avoid further delay, I opted to use a used shipping box that was lined with foil bubble wrap for extra protection from the cold. Each snake was individually bagged and placed in a 12 x 9 x 6 box. I added styrofoam peanuts for extra insulation, and a 40 hour heat pack taped to the top. I shipped these on 2/18 to a FedEx for pick up. They were picked up by Toni at 10:27 am per FedEx.
*On 2/19, I was away from home almost all day. I received a call from Toni stating that something was wrong with the snake (it was about 5:30 PST) She was saying that the snake wasn't acting right. I told her I didn't know what was wrong with the snake, maybe it was stressed from shipping, maybe something happened during shipping, I had no idea what was wrong. At this point, Toni asks if it's OK to give her Caro Syrup, as that is something to give puppies and kittens (I can't remember the justification). I told her I didn't think that was a good idea.
*I* suggested that she take the snake to the vet. Toni mentions that she'll take the snake to a vet, then that she won't because she doesn't want to spend money to find out what's wrong, and that there are none close to her.
*Toni mentions that she is upset as this was her daughter's scholarship money
*Toni called me from the vet on 2/27 stating she was at the vet's office, and that the vet thought the snake might have IBD. I told Toni that no snake in my collection is sick. This is still true - not even a respiratory infection. All are eating regularly, acting normally. I've added no new snakes since Oct. of 08.
*I NEVER recommended that she euthanize the snake, but that if she chose to do so, that was her choice and had no bearing on whether or not I would replace the snake. She mentioned that she didn't want to spend anymore money; I told that if she went ahead with her decision to euthanize the snake and didn't pay the vet to do it, she could put it in the freezer as an option (this was during the phone conversation on 2/27.)
*I have offered to replace the snake with one of equal value when one becomes available, which is one of the options Toni offered.
*Because of the delay in the timing of the vet visit, and because I am unsure of the husbandry provided the snake (ie: did she give the snake caro syrup as she suggested and it aspirated some?) and I am unsure of what the snake was exposed to in her collection, I cannot take the snake back. In the interest of trying to make Toni happy, I've offered a replacement, though I firmly believe this is something that happened when the snake was out of my care.
*I know of no breeder that blindly replaces/refunds without proof.
I'll post all the emails now.
Here's my side of the story.
I am also posting all the emails between us, so you can see for yourselves what was said, and what was not. I'll fill in the blanks and correct inaccuracies between emails.
* I had ordered 3/4 foam inch boxes from Superior on 2/5 through their new website, but didn't receive the boxes until 2/19. (I'd had to call them because there was some mess up on the website, but that is another issue.) To avoid further delay, I opted to use a used shipping box that was lined with foil bubble wrap for extra protection from the cold. Each snake was individually bagged and placed in a 12 x 9 x 6 box. I added styrofoam peanuts for extra insulation, and a 40 hour heat pack taped to the top. I shipped these on 2/18 to a FedEx for pick up. They were picked up by Toni at 10:27 am per FedEx.
*On 2/19, I was away from home almost all day. I received a call from Toni stating that something was wrong with the snake (it was about 5:30 PST) She was saying that the snake wasn't acting right. I told her I didn't know what was wrong with the snake, maybe it was stressed from shipping, maybe something happened during shipping, I had no idea what was wrong. At this point, Toni asks if it's OK to give her Caro Syrup, as that is something to give puppies and kittens (I can't remember the justification). I told her I didn't think that was a good idea.
*I* suggested that she take the snake to the vet. Toni mentions that she'll take the snake to a vet, then that she won't because she doesn't want to spend money to find out what's wrong, and that there are none close to her.
*Toni mentions that she is upset as this was her daughter's scholarship money
*Toni called me from the vet on 2/27 stating she was at the vet's office, and that the vet thought the snake might have IBD. I told Toni that no snake in my collection is sick. This is still true - not even a respiratory infection. All are eating regularly, acting normally. I've added no new snakes since Oct. of 08.
*I NEVER recommended that she euthanize the snake, but that if she chose to do so, that was her choice and had no bearing on whether or not I would replace the snake. She mentioned that she didn't want to spend anymore money; I told that if she went ahead with her decision to euthanize the snake and didn't pay the vet to do it, she could put it in the freezer as an option (this was during the phone conversation on 2/27.)
*I have offered to replace the snake with one of equal value when one becomes available, which is one of the options Toni offered.
*Because of the delay in the timing of the vet visit, and because I am unsure of the husbandry provided the snake (ie: did she give the snake caro syrup as she suggested and it aspirated some?) and I am unsure of what the snake was exposed to in her collection, I cannot take the snake back. In the interest of trying to make Toni happy, I've offered a replacement, though I firmly believe this is something that happened when the snake was out of my care.
*I know of no breeder that blindly replaces/refunds without proof.
I'll post all the emails now.
myminskins
New member
Bottom line is we purchased from Debbie in good faith . The animal arrived damaged or sick. Debbie was notified something was wrong as soon as I got to the computer ....approx an hr after recieving them at nearest fed ex station . Repeatedly notified same day by email and phone .She was notified by phone and email when we saw the vet and he kept the animal ....havent head from her for over a month. All the drama in between doesnt matter . She has the documetation from a vet ...fw to her the day I recieved it. She either stands behind the sale or she doesnt .We have absolutely no confidence in another animal from her.We want a refund. Bottom line .
ToshaMc
New member
Debbie -- if the snake is flipping over and showing signs of IBD out of the box -- how could you say that is an issue Toni's husbandry she hadn't had the snake long enough to have had husbandry issues? Why would you think that is signs of stress to begin with? If I shipped out an animal that showed signs of IBD I'd be bending over backward to find out what was wrong with it. Why did you not make any effort to find out what was wrong and make it right - adviser her to immediately take the snake to the vet and you'd cover the costs or split them or something or have her ship it back for a refund? If you received a sick animal from a seller how would you feel if they said -- well it arrived alive and that's all I guarantee? Quite frankly I wouldn't want a replacement animal from you either - give her her refund and vet costs and stop deflecting onto what Toni might have done wrong -- the snake was a lost cause out of the box and either you knew it or you caused it.
RB_BPz
Morelia Junkie
BRAVO BRAVO!!! MAGNIFIQUE!!!
Debbie just refund the money...Client satisfaction is client satisfaction...There are no loopholes...IF you belive in satisfying your client/collector 200% then you do what you have to...dont say you are concerned but God forgive me if im worong...I think you are not..Money is you concern here not your client...This is just an example that you DO NOT stand behind your animals very strongly.
Client satisfaction is a VERY STRONG phrase people...it means delivering peace of mind, value, and guarantees...I tbelive you are missing a couple...
Pablo Gomez
RB_BPz
Morelia Junkie
sjsexotics
The Hottie of Herps
wow interesting case I have not dealt with either party so this is just my opinion...
I think that a refund is asking to much if Toni had taken the snake to the vet sooner I would be more understanding. But there are to many excuses to why the snake was not taken to the vet sooner. the snake may very well have arrived ill but without photos of a sick snake the next day after arrival or vet documentation within a day or two, I personally do not think I would have offered anything. We as breeders stand behind our animals as much as possible but we can only go so far. It was Toni's choice to wait a long time before getting vet help and also she is saying how worried she is about her other animals but the snake was there for 1 to 2 weeks before it was ever at the vets so the harm has already been done in my opinion. so what is the outcome if the snake is confirmed to have IBD then a refund is needed but if not then If I was Toni I would be more then Happy with a new snake. if it is not IBD then you have no reason to worry about a new snake being sick. Are there any pics of this snake or videos of it looking ill or acting as you stated that would make your case stronger
I think that a refund is asking to much if Toni had taken the snake to the vet sooner I would be more understanding. But there are to many excuses to why the snake was not taken to the vet sooner. the snake may very well have arrived ill but without photos of a sick snake the next day after arrival or vet documentation within a day or two, I personally do not think I would have offered anything. We as breeders stand behind our animals as much as possible but we can only go so far. It was Toni's choice to wait a long time before getting vet help and also she is saying how worried she is about her other animals but the snake was there for 1 to 2 weeks before it was ever at the vets so the harm has already been done in my opinion. so what is the outcome if the snake is confirmed to have IBD then a refund is needed but if not then If I was Toni I would be more then Happy with a new snake. if it is not IBD then you have no reason to worry about a new snake being sick. Are there any pics of this snake or videos of it looking ill or acting as you stated that would make your case stronger
dprince
New member
Also to note, Toni didn't take the snake to the vet until 2/27/09 - a full nine days past when she received it.
babies
Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:34 AM
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safe on heat and fresh water
they look great and lively
car is a little loose but ok
i have them set up and have to leave
running late will write tonight
thanks veryy very much
they are big
Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:31 PM
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something is wrong with her.she is still limpish and has been turning her front body and head upside down . i dont know what to do for her . faye is home now and she just confirmed what i am seeing.
weird eyes
Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:08 PM
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something is weird about the car alb girls eyes ; the top 3/4 of one eye ..her rt is blueish greenish and teh bottom is red like it should be.its not cloudy..the other eye has like the top 1/5 the same way. i dont have any idea what is wrong with er but i am going to try to get into a reptile vet tomorrow.
have you ever seen eyes like i am describing? she is upside down...and sorta limpish. will let you know what we find out.
caramel
Friday, February 20, 2009 11:53 AM
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Debbie,
She may be slightly better but still rolling and limp and her eyes are not right .I think they were packed to tight in the box and she was smothered . I have asked another breeder and they agreed and also wondered if she was treated for mites as sometimes that can cause these symptoms. It is clear the box was too small for them . Not sure if she is going to recover ..or even make it ..Sux .
Toni
Re: caramel
Friday, February 20, 2009 3:27 PM
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"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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"Toni Stephens" <[email protected]>
Hi Toni,
She was never treated for mites by me; you could email John Manser (the breeder) and ask him, though I've not seen the behavior you're describing. I've never treated anything for mites, as I've not yet had this issue. The box was adequate in size, I'm not sure how they could be smothered? I packed them the best I could so that they would arrive safely for the cold weather. Hopefully she's just having a rough time adjusting to being shipped? I'm sorry I don't have any other advice to give. :-(
Debbie
car alb
Friday, February 20, 2009 5:12 PM
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Debbie ,
I think it happened during shipping . We just have to wait to see if she recovers . I recieved 2 from John the same size in a box twice the size as have the others we have recieved been in larger boxes . I know you just had a baby and I dont mean to be causing any stress...want you to be kept update don what ha shappend . she was limp when I took her out of the box...she couldnt pick her head up but I hoped she was going to snap out of it ..after I looked at the box again I realized how little room there was in there for them and she was on bottom .
If she wasnt like this before you shipped and you didnt treat her for mites as this can cause a temporary similar condition...then something occured in shipping between your palce and pine bluff. The foil panel with the heat pad was down against them and all that and sealing was just too tight a fit
.The breeder I talked to said they had seen it before when the box and contents dont allow for the snake to expand its lungs fully or they get too hot during shipping or they have been treated with mite spray they can have some temporary symptoms .
I dont want to have to deal with this and I was awake all night crying . I think I got 2 hrs maybe of sleep and my right eye has been swollen all day ...I hope she pullls out of it but she may not . I dont know if you will stand behind her or not but I have to let you know what is going on...that was my daughters scholarship money....it wasnt even mine ...
I just want you to work with me somehow if she dies or is permanently damaged ... I couldnt get her to the reptile vet in north little rock today and the vet here doesnt do snakes .
The other breeder told me to not waste money on the vet because they couldnt do anything for her . We just have to wait a bit and try to feed her and hope she pulls out of it...
She pooped after I got her set up yesterday and it looked normal...she doesnt have any discharge whatsoever ....her eyes look weird...she could have hemoraged ...i dont know.
If she does die I will take her to the state lab in little rock and get a necropsy . Is she doesnt die and remains damaged I don t know what to do...hopefully she will eat. going to wait til tomorrow to try food .
She is beautiful and I hope she recovers .
Take care,
Toni
car
Sunday, February 22, 2009 4:23 PM
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she cant hold her head and top 1/3 of her body up still
toni
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deal with this ?
Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:01 PM
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Debbie ,
Are you going to deal with this and try to work something out ? I am asking this last time before I consider my options . Its not John's place to stand behind this . not our place to take the loss ...especially my daughter .
I am not asking for ideas of what to do for this animal . I am asking for either a refund or an agreed upon comparable undamaged replacement of equal value .
I dont want to put up pix of the box and the snake online and file a complaint with bbb etc but you have got to understand I cannot just quietly accept this loss .Your lack of communication or concern just compounds it .
Bottom line is we sent you money..a lot of money in good faith for a healthy breedable animal and when she arrived she was not healthy and still isnt . I dont intend to send you ugly emails or ph calls . Just stating the facts as I have from the time I got home after picking her up . now something is definitely wrong with this animal and was when we got her . Either she smothered in the inappropiate shipping conditions or you sent us a faulty animal .
So please get back to me asap before I do have to file complaints . Lets talk about this .ok?
Thanks ,
Toni
Re: deal with this ?
Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:37 PM
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"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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"Toni Stephens" <[email protected]>
Toni,
As I have told you, I just had a baby. I am one week post-pardum, and get to my emails as I can. This is the first time in two days I've been able to email. A little respect for this would be appreciated as opposed to jumping to the conclusion that I am not willing to deal with this. :-/
You are jumping to conclusions about what happened to the snake and blaming me for either sending you a defective snake (which I did not do), or making the assumption that they were improperly packed (which I heartily disagree with) , which is also unappreciated. :-(
Here's the original email I received from you:
babies
Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:34 AM
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safe on heat and fresh water
they look great and lively
car is a little loose but ok
i have them set up and have to leave
running late will write tonight
thanks veryy very much
they are big
How am I supposed to know something didn't happen to her once she was received? You are asking me to take you on your word when this is the first email I received? You are unwilling to take the snake to the vet, but are willing to to jump to making complaints, posting pictures, in the hopes of an amicable resolution? I'm sorry, that feels very much like a veiled threat to me. :-(
If you would like to talk in a kind, civilized way, I am more than open to that (via email.) I would ask that you take the snake to the vet and scan a copy of the report for me and we can go from there. If you are unwilling to do this, then there is not much I can do on my end. I hope you understand.
Thanks,
Debbie
Re: deal with this ?
Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:16 PM
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I dont have the time or energy to deal with this either . I am not jumping to any conclusions just giving you an update and letting you know what I am going to have to do if we cannot work something out.
I am not disrespecting you whatsoever .Dont me either by acting this way or I will stop trying to work it out.
I know you dont want to assume any responsibility but want to make sure you are saying no to me before I go any further.
I have a lot on my plate as well and am also unwell so a little respect appreciated her also.
Doesnt have to be like that.
I am fully aware of what we have written back and forth . We have recieved an animal with severe problems . Obviously if it was ok before packing and wasnt when unpacked...it happened during shipping. The foil panel with heat ppack was pushed down ontop and against them in the box with the strofoam ontop of that aand then sealed.The car was on bottom .
I dont want to argue about anything . Just want to know if you are standing behind the animal you sold us or not and if so how .
I prefer to keep it on simple terms and not get emotionally upset . It is hard enough to have recieved an animal in this shape. Hard on me and hard on my daughter . How do we even know its not IBD ? So please try to put yourself in my/our position and I would like to proceed without drama .
If there is drama I will simply ignore it and proceed.
I have absolutely no energy for any drama as I stated in prior email .All i want to know is if you are going to replace or refund and how . Thats all i want to know .
Toni
Toni,
As previously stated, if you'd like to discuss a possible replacement, you will need to take the snake to the vet, and scan a copy of the report for me. Once the problem has been identified, I will be willing to discuss it further. If you aren't willing to do this, then there is nothing more I can do.
Debbie
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Monday, February 23, 2009 7:08 PM
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debbie,
i will fw pix ttaken of the car baby and box to you tomorrow including pic of bottom of the box you sent them in . the box has writing on the bottom saying it holds 2 geckos so am assuming it was used.i will send pix showing the box size we have routinely recieved other snakes in twice the size with less animals.i just dont want you to ship any more the way ours were shipped for the sake of the animals and future buyers.
debbie i would have gladly sent additional money for a bigger box or even pd shiiping twice for 2 small boxes like this one ...all you had to do was ask.
my hrad hurts too bad to send them tonight.have to go to kidney dr tomorrow and get bloood drawn at cardiologist so it may be tomorrow evening.
toni
From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 007
To: [email protected]
bottom of box (used?)
note size appropiate for 2 small gec
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 009
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:35 PM
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CarAlbDebbiePrince 009.jpg (88KB)
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:17 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 009
To: [email protected]
box on left contained 2 08 bp which is typical size of boxes I have recieved them in.
box on rt..3 08 good size 6 mo old bps shipped omside.foil padded panels and styrofoan panels plus styrofoam peanuts along with heat pack taped to foil panel that was lying ontop of snkaes with styrofoam panel ontop of that and box sealed...dr pepper can to illustrate spce or llack of space
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Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 019
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:36 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:20 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 019
To: [email protected]
snake is too limp. exhibits rolling and head upper body in downward or sideways ,upsidedown position
worsens as seconds pass
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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:36 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:21 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 020
To: [email protected]
abnormal positons snake has maintained when held since arrival.
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 021
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:37 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:22 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 021
To: [email protected]
rolling/hanging upsaid edown/limp body
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 023
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:37 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:24 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 023
To: [email protected]
snake cannot raise its upper body/again note upside down
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 001
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:37 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:30 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 001
To: [email protected]
3 animals same age and approximate size individually bagged and all 3 in this box . 1 of the snake sis slight larger .
the caramel was limp when I got her out of the box .I hoped she would be better after she got into her own enclosure and warmed up and drank...after a fe whrs it was apparent she wasnot getting better and I immediately emailed debbie prince to let her know...after no reply to my emails I called her and told her what was going on and asked if she had any suggestions.she did not. I told her I would update her in writing per emails ...which I have done repeatedly .
vets
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:41 PM
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there are no vets in my area thats e snakes
i did talk with one who is 4 hrs from me and he said if the snake is still not acting normal and is still rolling and limp after all this time 5 days at this point that the' prognosis is poor' and the snake is not going to get better . there is no treatment .
*********After phone call******************
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Debbbie,
We left her with the vet . If she is still alive on mon he will put her down and send body for necropsy . He like the other vet I spoke to said her prognosis was poor . He said her pupils are pinpointed and she has encephalitis or inflamation of the brain . He said her neuro syptoms were so pronounced that he didnt think we should bring her home as the indication for ibd was too high risk for our collection .
advice is to qt your animals until we rule out ibd in this animal. I told him what you said on the phone about not having ibd but he said you cannot be sure . qt is 6 months.
I also spoke to 2 other breeders who said you cannot be sure your animals are ibd free.
the vet stayed late in order to give my daughter and time to deal with this and make an informed decision .
His feelings were the risk was way too much to bring her home no matter and that you need to learn more about ibd .
Will send vet statement when we get it in writing. tonight we left after talking with 2 other breeders and the vet at great length . All told me you need to stand behind this snake and that I should send them all back to you and my daughter and I should not have to be the ones to deal with all this . everyone I have spoken to has said they would have stood behind the snake immediately upon learning there was a problem the 1st day and not put us through all this ...no matter what the cause...she was not right when she arrived.
I hope to God our collection has not been exposed to possible horrible deaths and loss .
This condition could also be caused by the way they were packed .
This has been very hard on my daughter and me both .
Toni
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Re: vet
Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:20 AM
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"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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Toni,
Testing can be done on live snakes - a snake does not have to be put down and necropsied in order to ascertain its status. http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice. I will NOT accept ANY snakes back from you now, but if I receive the vet report (and the necropsy report) I will replace the carmel albino (when I have something of equal or greater value to offer) after I've read the vet report and necropsy and determined that that is the right course of action. I won't have anything of equal or greater value for at least six months, so the QT that you seek will be met. What other breeders would or would not do has no bearing on what I will or will not do.
Debbie
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Re: vet
Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:49 PM
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On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Debbie Prince <[email protected]> wrote:
Toni,
Testing can be done on live snakes - a snake does not have to be put down and necropsied in order to ascertain its status. http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
### those tests do not rule it out .
this quote below is from the site above . we went through all this with the vet and another well known breeder on the phone at same time . the car girl could not have survived live biopsie sof her organs Debbie..she was on her back tying herself in knots.her pupils are pinpoint..she had imflamation of her brain.her prognoosis has been poor since day one.
To determine the actual presence or absence of inclusion bodies requires biopsies of organ tissue for analysis
the blood tests cannot diagnose ibd .
If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice.
## debbie i think we talkied all this over last night when i called you from the vet before I agreed to put her down. not sure why you are writing this today like you dont know .
You told me you didn't care if i threw her in the freezer that you would stand behind her.
I will NOT accept ANY snakes back from you now,
###what in the world does that mean debbie??NOW you wont accept them back?? you know well that it is too late and the car was left at the vet for necropsy...you said it didnt matter if she died or not..now you are changing everything you said?
the snake has been dying since you shipped it or before.it was never ok and it was never going to be ok. Who knows what the vet and testing costs will be. We should not have to deal with any of this .
but if I receive the vet report (and the necropsy report) I will replace the carmel albino (when I have something of equal or greater value to offer) after I've read the vet report and necropsy and determined that that is the right course of action. I won't have anything of equal or greater value for at least six months, so the QT that you seek will be met.
Debbie this has been very hard on my daughter and me emotionally . If this is ibd we will be wanting a refund instead .Also if we loose our collection to this we will have to deal with that with an attorney I am assuming .
If its not ibd perhaps you can sell the animal of equal value and send a refund so we dont have to go through this again in any way shape or form . This has been/is extremely tramatic and we want it it be over .
I do advise lockdown til we know the outcome of the ibd tests .
I dont know how long it takes . Will know more on Monday .
What other breeders would or would not do has no bearing on what I will or will not do.
## Debbie while it may not have a bearing on what you do..it may have a bearing on your reputation ...it already has had an impact...for whatever value that has to you .
If we do not come to an agreement then there will be 3rd party judgement in a legal form . So hopefully this not ibd and is resolved asap.
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Re: vet
Saturday, February 28, 2009 6:53 PM
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Toni,
As of right now, I am still awaiting the vet report. Without this, I can take no further action.
Debbie
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I will be away from the computer for a while, so if there is a delay in further responses from me, that is why. Thanks.
babies
Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:34 AM
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safe on heat and fresh water
they look great and lively
car is a little loose but ok
i have them set up and have to leave
running late will write tonight
thanks veryy very much
they are big
Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:31 PM
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something is wrong with her.she is still limpish and has been turning her front body and head upside down . i dont know what to do for her . faye is home now and she just confirmed what i am seeing.
weird eyes
Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:08 PM
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something is weird about the car alb girls eyes ; the top 3/4 of one eye ..her rt is blueish greenish and teh bottom is red like it should be.its not cloudy..the other eye has like the top 1/5 the same way. i dont have any idea what is wrong with er but i am going to try to get into a reptile vet tomorrow.
have you ever seen eyes like i am describing? she is upside down...and sorta limpish. will let you know what we find out.
caramel
Friday, February 20, 2009 11:53 AM
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Debbie,
She may be slightly better but still rolling and limp and her eyes are not right .I think they were packed to tight in the box and she was smothered . I have asked another breeder and they agreed and also wondered if she was treated for mites as sometimes that can cause these symptoms. It is clear the box was too small for them . Not sure if she is going to recover ..or even make it ..Sux .
Toni
Re: caramel
Friday, February 20, 2009 3:27 PM
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"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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Hi Toni,
She was never treated for mites by me; you could email John Manser (the breeder) and ask him, though I've not seen the behavior you're describing. I've never treated anything for mites, as I've not yet had this issue. The box was adequate in size, I'm not sure how they could be smothered? I packed them the best I could so that they would arrive safely for the cold weather. Hopefully she's just having a rough time adjusting to being shipped? I'm sorry I don't have any other advice to give. :-(
Debbie
car alb
Friday, February 20, 2009 5:12 PM
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Debbie ,
I think it happened during shipping . We just have to wait to see if she recovers . I recieved 2 from John the same size in a box twice the size as have the others we have recieved been in larger boxes . I know you just had a baby and I dont mean to be causing any stress...want you to be kept update don what ha shappend . she was limp when I took her out of the box...she couldnt pick her head up but I hoped she was going to snap out of it ..after I looked at the box again I realized how little room there was in there for them and she was on bottom .
If she wasnt like this before you shipped and you didnt treat her for mites as this can cause a temporary similar condition...then something occured in shipping between your palce and pine bluff. The foil panel with the heat pad was down against them and all that and sealing was just too tight a fit
.The breeder I talked to said they had seen it before when the box and contents dont allow for the snake to expand its lungs fully or they get too hot during shipping or they have been treated with mite spray they can have some temporary symptoms .
I dont want to have to deal with this and I was awake all night crying . I think I got 2 hrs maybe of sleep and my right eye has been swollen all day ...I hope she pullls out of it but she may not . I dont know if you will stand behind her or not but I have to let you know what is going on...that was my daughters scholarship money....it wasnt even mine ...
I just want you to work with me somehow if she dies or is permanently damaged ... I couldnt get her to the reptile vet in north little rock today and the vet here doesnt do snakes .
The other breeder told me to not waste money on the vet because they couldnt do anything for her . We just have to wait a bit and try to feed her and hope she pulls out of it...
She pooped after I got her set up yesterday and it looked normal...she doesnt have any discharge whatsoever ....her eyes look weird...she could have hemoraged ...i dont know.
If she does die I will take her to the state lab in little rock and get a necropsy . Is she doesnt die and remains damaged I don t know what to do...hopefully she will eat. going to wait til tomorrow to try food .
She is beautiful and I hope she recovers .
Take care,
Toni
car
Sunday, February 22, 2009 4:23 PM
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she cant hold her head and top 1/3 of her body up still
toni
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deal with this ?
Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:01 PM
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Debbie ,
Are you going to deal with this and try to work something out ? I am asking this last time before I consider my options . Its not John's place to stand behind this . not our place to take the loss ...especially my daughter .
I am not asking for ideas of what to do for this animal . I am asking for either a refund or an agreed upon comparable undamaged replacement of equal value .
I dont want to put up pix of the box and the snake online and file a complaint with bbb etc but you have got to understand I cannot just quietly accept this loss .Your lack of communication or concern just compounds it .
Bottom line is we sent you money..a lot of money in good faith for a healthy breedable animal and when she arrived she was not healthy and still isnt . I dont intend to send you ugly emails or ph calls . Just stating the facts as I have from the time I got home after picking her up . now something is definitely wrong with this animal and was when we got her . Either she smothered in the inappropiate shipping conditions or you sent us a faulty animal .
So please get back to me asap before I do have to file complaints . Lets talk about this .ok?
Thanks ,
Toni
Re: deal with this ?
Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:37 PM
From:
"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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"Toni Stephens" <[email protected]>
Toni,
As I have told you, I just had a baby. I am one week post-pardum, and get to my emails as I can. This is the first time in two days I've been able to email. A little respect for this would be appreciated as opposed to jumping to the conclusion that I am not willing to deal with this. :-/
You are jumping to conclusions about what happened to the snake and blaming me for either sending you a defective snake (which I did not do), or making the assumption that they were improperly packed (which I heartily disagree with) , which is also unappreciated. :-(
Here's the original email I received from you:
babies
Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:34 AM
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safe on heat and fresh water
they look great and lively
car is a little loose but ok
i have them set up and have to leave
running late will write tonight
thanks veryy very much
they are big
How am I supposed to know something didn't happen to her once she was received? You are asking me to take you on your word when this is the first email I received? You are unwilling to take the snake to the vet, but are willing to to jump to making complaints, posting pictures, in the hopes of an amicable resolution? I'm sorry, that feels very much like a veiled threat to me. :-(
If you would like to talk in a kind, civilized way, I am more than open to that (via email.) I would ask that you take the snake to the vet and scan a copy of the report for me and we can go from there. If you are unwilling to do this, then there is not much I can do on my end. I hope you understand.
Thanks,
Debbie
Re: deal with this ?
Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:16 PM
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I dont have the time or energy to deal with this either . I am not jumping to any conclusions just giving you an update and letting you know what I am going to have to do if we cannot work something out.
I am not disrespecting you whatsoever .Dont me either by acting this way or I will stop trying to work it out.
I know you dont want to assume any responsibility but want to make sure you are saying no to me before I go any further.
I have a lot on my plate as well and am also unwell so a little respect appreciated her also.
Doesnt have to be like that.
I am fully aware of what we have written back and forth . We have recieved an animal with severe problems . Obviously if it was ok before packing and wasnt when unpacked...it happened during shipping. The foil panel with heat ppack was pushed down ontop and against them in the box with the strofoam ontop of that aand then sealed.The car was on bottom .
I dont want to argue about anything . Just want to know if you are standing behind the animal you sold us or not and if so how .
I prefer to keep it on simple terms and not get emotionally upset . It is hard enough to have recieved an animal in this shape. Hard on me and hard on my daughter . How do we even know its not IBD ? So please try to put yourself in my/our position and I would like to proceed without drama .
If there is drama I will simply ignore it and proceed.
I have absolutely no energy for any drama as I stated in prior email .All i want to know is if you are going to replace or refund and how . Thats all i want to know .
Toni
Toni,
As previously stated, if you'd like to discuss a possible replacement, you will need to take the snake to the vet, and scan a copy of the report for me. Once the problem has been identified, I will be willing to discuss it further. If you aren't willing to do this, then there is nothing more I can do.
Debbie
pix
Monday, February 23, 2009 7:08 PM
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debbie,
i will fw pix ttaken of the car baby and box to you tomorrow including pic of bottom of the box you sent them in . the box has writing on the bottom saying it holds 2 geckos so am assuming it was used.i will send pix showing the box size we have routinely recieved other snakes in twice the size with less animals.i just dont want you to ship any more the way ours were shipped for the sake of the animals and future buyers.
debbie i would have gladly sent additional money for a bigger box or even pd shiiping twice for 2 small boxes like this one ...all you had to do was ask.
my hrad hurts too bad to send them tonight.have to go to kidney dr tomorrow and get bloood drawn at cardiologist so it may be tomorrow evening.
toni
From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 007
To: [email protected]
bottom of box (used?)
note size appropiate for 2 small gec
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 009
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:35 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:17 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 009
To: [email protected]
box on left contained 2 08 bp which is typical size of boxes I have recieved them in.
box on rt..3 08 good size 6 mo old bps shipped omside.foil padded panels and styrofoan panels plus styrofoam peanuts along with heat pack taped to foil panel that was lying ontop of snkaes with styrofoam panel ontop of that and box sealed...dr pepper can to illustrate spce or llack of space
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Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 019
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:36 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:20 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 019
To: [email protected]
snake is too limp. exhibits rolling and head upper body in downward or sideways ,upsidedown position
worsens as seconds pass
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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:36 PM
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Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:21 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 020
To: [email protected]
abnormal positons snake has maintained when held since arrival.
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 021
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:37 PM
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Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:22 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 021
To: [email protected]
rolling/hanging upsaid edown/limp body
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 023
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:37 PM
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Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:24 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 023
To: [email protected]
snake cannot raise its upper body/again note upside down
Fwd: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 001
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:37 PM
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From: Toni Stephens <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:30 PM
Subject: Emailing: CarAlbDebbiePrince 001
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3 animals same age and approximate size individually bagged and all 3 in this box . 1 of the snake sis slight larger .
the caramel was limp when I got her out of the box .I hoped she would be better after she got into her own enclosure and warmed up and drank...after a fe whrs it was apparent she wasnot getting better and I immediately emailed debbie prince to let her know...after no reply to my emails I called her and told her what was going on and asked if she had any suggestions.she did not. I told her I would update her in writing per emails ...which I have done repeatedly .
vets
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:41 PM
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there are no vets in my area thats e snakes
i did talk with one who is 4 hrs from me and he said if the snake is still not acting normal and is still rolling and limp after all this time 5 days at this point that the' prognosis is poor' and the snake is not going to get better . there is no treatment .
*********After phone call******************
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Debbbie,
We left her with the vet . If she is still alive on mon he will put her down and send body for necropsy . He like the other vet I spoke to said her prognosis was poor . He said her pupils are pinpointed and she has encephalitis or inflamation of the brain . He said her neuro syptoms were so pronounced that he didnt think we should bring her home as the indication for ibd was too high risk for our collection .
advice is to qt your animals until we rule out ibd in this animal. I told him what you said on the phone about not having ibd but he said you cannot be sure . qt is 6 months.
I also spoke to 2 other breeders who said you cannot be sure your animals are ibd free.
the vet stayed late in order to give my daughter and time to deal with this and make an informed decision .
His feelings were the risk was way too much to bring her home no matter and that you need to learn more about ibd .
Will send vet statement when we get it in writing. tonight we left after talking with 2 other breeders and the vet at great length . All told me you need to stand behind this snake and that I should send them all back to you and my daughter and I should not have to be the ones to deal with all this . everyone I have spoken to has said they would have stood behind the snake immediately upon learning there was a problem the 1st day and not put us through all this ...no matter what the cause...she was not right when she arrived.
I hope to God our collection has not been exposed to possible horrible deaths and loss .
This condition could also be caused by the way they were packed .
This has been very hard on my daughter and me both .
Toni
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Re: vet
Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:20 AM
From:
"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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"Toni Stephens" <[email protected]>
Toni,
Testing can be done on live snakes - a snake does not have to be put down and necropsied in order to ascertain its status. http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice. I will NOT accept ANY snakes back from you now, but if I receive the vet report (and the necropsy report) I will replace the carmel albino (when I have something of equal or greater value to offer) after I've read the vet report and necropsy and determined that that is the right course of action. I won't have anything of equal or greater value for at least six months, so the QT that you seek will be met. What other breeders would or would not do has no bearing on what I will or will not do.
Debbie
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Re: vet
Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:49 PM
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On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Debbie Prince <[email protected]> wrote:
Toni,
Testing can be done on live snakes - a snake does not have to be put down and necropsied in order to ascertain its status. http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
### those tests do not rule it out .
this quote below is from the site above . we went through all this with the vet and another well known breeder on the phone at same time . the car girl could not have survived live biopsie sof her organs Debbie..she was on her back tying herself in knots.her pupils are pinpoint..she had imflamation of her brain.her prognoosis has been poor since day one.
To determine the actual presence or absence of inclusion bodies requires biopsies of organ tissue for analysis
the blood tests cannot diagnose ibd .
If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice.
## debbie i think we talkied all this over last night when i called you from the vet before I agreed to put her down. not sure why you are writing this today like you dont know .
You told me you didn't care if i threw her in the freezer that you would stand behind her.
I will NOT accept ANY snakes back from you now,
###what in the world does that mean debbie??NOW you wont accept them back?? you know well that it is too late and the car was left at the vet for necropsy...you said it didnt matter if she died or not..now you are changing everything you said?
the snake has been dying since you shipped it or before.it was never ok and it was never going to be ok. Who knows what the vet and testing costs will be. We should not have to deal with any of this .
but if I receive the vet report (and the necropsy report) I will replace the carmel albino (when I have something of equal or greater value to offer) after I've read the vet report and necropsy and determined that that is the right course of action. I won't have anything of equal or greater value for at least six months, so the QT that you seek will be met.
Debbie this has been very hard on my daughter and me emotionally . If this is ibd we will be wanting a refund instead .Also if we loose our collection to this we will have to deal with that with an attorney I am assuming .
If its not ibd perhaps you can sell the animal of equal value and send a refund so we dont have to go through this again in any way shape or form . This has been/is extremely tramatic and we want it it be over .
I do advise lockdown til we know the outcome of the ibd tests .
I dont know how long it takes . Will know more on Monday .
What other breeders would or would not do has no bearing on what I will or will not do.
## Debbie while it may not have a bearing on what you do..it may have a bearing on your reputation ...it already has had an impact...for whatever value that has to you .
If we do not come to an agreement then there will be 3rd party judgement in a legal form . So hopefully this not ibd and is resolved asap.
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Re: vet
Saturday, February 28, 2009 6:53 PM
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"Debbie Prince" <[email protected]>
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"Toni Stephens" <[email protected]>
Toni,
As of right now, I am still awaiting the vet report. Without this, I can take no further action.
Debbie
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Fwd: letter
Wednesday, April 1, 2009 8:29 AM
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From: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:01 AM
Subject: letter
To: [email protected]
I will be away from the computer for a while, so if there is a delay in further responses from me, that is why. Thanks.
SPJ
Well-known member
Was caro syrup given to the snake and if so, what was the reasoning behind giving it that?
SPJ
Well-known member
That snake is acting funny in those photos. Almost like a bad case of wobble like with some spiders. Just doesn't look right.
myminskins
New member
Chico Reptiles
New member
Hmmm........
Has anyone considered the possibility of over heating the snake? Just a thought, but I have never seen anyone use foil inside a lined box. Heat packs can get pretty hot at their peek temp. The reflective foil could have intensified the heat!?!
Was the ill snake closest to the heat?
I also don't see any air holes in the box, was there any?
If the other 2 snakes seem ok then it may not be the case, Just curious I guess.
Seems to me that if the snake left healthy, but arrived unhealthy, something could have happend during shipping? This would be the responsibility of the seller, IMO.
I can understand not wanting the snake back with pos. IBD involved. If I were the buyer I would want all three snakes Far Far away from my collection!
Has anyone considered the possibility of over heating the snake? Just a thought, but I have never seen anyone use foil inside a lined box. Heat packs can get pretty hot at their peek temp. The reflective foil could have intensified the heat!?!
Was the ill snake closest to the heat?
I also don't see any air holes in the box, was there any?
If the other 2 snakes seem ok then it may not be the case, Just curious I guess.
Seems to me that if the snake left healthy, but arrived unhealthy, something could have happend during shipping? This would be the responsibility of the seller, IMO.
I can understand not wanting the snake back with pos. IBD involved. If I were the buyer I would want all three snakes Far Far away from my collection!
myminskins
New member
no it wasnt given to the snake .please read my replies to her accusations. when she did not respond to my emails telling her something was wrong with the snake..i called her very upset .i told her i didnt know what to do for the snake. ..i had never seen this before . we have only had pups and kittens and that i knew what to do for them if they faded...we used kayro on our finger and rubbed a tiny drop on the gums as it didnt have to be digested ...but that i was helpless in knowing what to do for the snake...Debbie is reaching really far to come up with this accusation .
is she trying to say i called her saying there was a problem and then she thinks i caused a problem after telling her about it ???that really makes no sense on any level .
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
OK, I'm confused on the website http://thegeckoprince.com/terms.html here there is no guarantee for animals other than live delivery.
So let me get this straight:
Geckos are not guaranteed for seven days on the website, but in an ad for a Ball Python from the same seller the geckos are guaranteed for seven days but in the same ad the Ball Python is not guaranteed?
Does this somehow make any sense?
Why aren't all of the animals sold by this co. guaranteed?
Why would you mention that your other animals are guaranteed in an ad where the animal being sold is conspicuously not mentioned as being guaranteed?
but on the ad for what I believe is this animal ( the caramel albino female) it says this:
here: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121775&highlight=debbie+prince
So let me get this straight:
Geckos are not guaranteed for seven days on the website, but in an ad for a Ball Python from the same seller the geckos are guaranteed for seven days but in the same ad the Ball Python is not guaranteed?
Does this somehow make any sense?
Why aren't all of the animals sold by this co. guaranteed?
Why would you mention that your other animals are guaranteed in an ad where the animal being sold is conspicuously not mentioned as being guaranteed?
myminskins
New member
Has anyone considered the possibility of over heating the snake? Just a thought, but I have never seen anyone use foil inside a lined box. Heat packs can get pretty hot at their peek temp. The reflective foil could have intensified the heat!?!
Was the ill snake closest to the heat?
I also don't see any air holes in the box, was there any?
If the other 2 snakes seem ok then it may not be the case, Just curious I guess.
Seems to me that if the snake left healthy, but arrived unhealthy, something could have happend during shipping? This would be the responsibility of the seller, IMO.
I can understand not wanting the snake back with pos. IBD involved. If I were the buyer I would want all three snakes Far Far away from my collection!
Yes we have considered that the packaging was the cause . No holes...lots of tape . The caramel was on bottom when I took her out of the box .
All 3 snakes are far away .
The snake arrived damaged or sick..regardless of the cause..it arrived this way.
dprince
New member
The photos weren't sent to me until 5 days after the snake was received.
I did want to know what was wrong with the snake which is why I encouraged her to take it to the vet REPEATEDLY. Did something happen to the snake from the time it was received to the time she emailed me? 6 hours later? Did she accidentally hit its head? Drop it? Give it caro syrup? The other two snakes arrived fine per her emails. This snake is still alive and eating 6 weeks later.
I've stated that I'm willing to replace the snake. I do stand behind my animals.
I did want to know what was wrong with the snake which is why I encouraged her to take it to the vet REPEATEDLY. Did something happen to the snake from the time it was received to the time she emailed me? 6 hours later? Did she accidentally hit its head? Drop it? Give it caro syrup? The other two snakes arrived fine per her emails. This snake is still alive and eating 6 weeks later.
I've stated that I'm willing to replace the snake. I do stand behind my animals.
myminskins
New member
she changed her page after this happend is my understanding