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Info on record / Debbie Prince

dprince said:
The photos weren't sent to me until 5 days after the snake was received.

I did want to know what was wrong with the snake which is why I encouraged her to take it to the vet REPEATEDLY. Did something happen to the snake from the time it was received to the time she emailed me? 6 hours later? Did she accidentally hit its head? Drop it? Give it caro syrup? The other two snakes arrived fine per her emails. This snake is still alive and eating 6 weeks later. :shrug01:

I've stated that I'm willing to replace the snake. I do stand behind my animals.
Click to expand...

you are floundering . we do not want anothe ranimal from you . we want to be done with you . we want a refund .
 
SPJ said:
That snake is acting funny in those photos. Almost like a bad case of wobble like with some spiders. Just doesn't look right.
Click to expand...

This was minor to what it would esculate to the more it was handled. The longer held it would start tying in knots and writhing upside down . We tried not to handle it to that point because of the scare of infectious disease and if it was damaged from packaging we didnt want to make it worse .
 
Debbie...the # of days between arrival on the 19th and the vet on the 27th is actually less than 9 full days ???? As stated I couldnt find a vet to see her and get in til then although I did talk to several per phone . They all said the same thing that there was nothing they could do for her .
Every time I thought I found one they declined and referred to a differnt vet...none of which would see a snake .
Dr Sutherland was on the internet under reptile vets in arkansas .
 
I am only going to mention that I have had the EXACT same symptoms in an adult female. She started showing these signs within hours of being overheated due to a malfunction. The symptoms lasted several months. Today, she is only a pet as there is really no way of knowing what effect the heat had on her brain.

Some of the symptoms of IBD is respritory infection and partial paralysis. IBD tends to kill ball pythons in a matter of weeks. From what I understand, the only way to diagnose IBD is if inclusion cells are present in certain organs. The only way to test these organs is during a necropsy.

If this snake lived this long, it is likely it does NOT have IBD, but rather suffered from being over heated.
 
wyldwurm said:
I am only going to mention that I have had the EXACT same symptoms in an adult female. She started showing these signs within hours of being overheated due to a malfunction. The symptoms lasted several months. Today, she is only a pet as there is really no way of knowing what effect the heat had on her brain.

Some of the symptoms of IBD is respritory infection and partial paralysis. IBD tends to kill ball pythons in a matter of weeks. From what I understand, the only way to diagnose IBD is if inclusion cells are present in certain organs. The only way to test these organs is during a necropsy.

If this snake lived this long, it is likely it does NOT have IBD, but rather suffered from being over heated.
Click to expand...



Several others have told me her symptoms are those they have seen in animals that were overheated and after seeing the package set up even more so . That is comforting to a degree but it is still very heartbreaking to see this animal in this condition . We will most likely have her put down and her brain biopsied as her quality of life is very very poor and for our own peace of mind and the community as well .
What happens to the poor animal ....what about our collection and the IBD scare and threat and certainly getting my daughter through all this have been priority .

Bottom line on debbie is she is not a priority . We recieved a damaged or sick animal and thus far she has not stood behind her sale...only made ridiculous accusations and tried to justify her unprofessionalism and uncaring by blaming us .
 
Debbie -- it does seem like there were a number of emails to you indicating there was something wrong from the start -- don't know how many phone calls -- you did not advise the vet at first, did not ask for pictures, did not ask for anything - instead you didn't even seem concerned and blew off her concern as shipping stress. She took your word that it would go away so any "delay of care" is essentially due to your lack of concern and direction. As a matter of fact you told her flat out that you didn't have any advise for her when you should have told her to send the snake back. As for these numerous times you insisted she take the snake to the vet -- it wasn't until Toni asked for a refund three days later that you even mention the vet and only then did you say she wasn't getting anything from you without a vet confirmed report. WTF?!?!?!?

Judging from the packaging I would lean towards the snake suffering from heat stroke and/or oxygen deprivation.

It's time to do what you should have done with that first email that stated the snake had a problem.
 
1) The packaging is clearly inappropriate for shipping ball pythons, especially ones that size.
2) Debbie was aware of the caramel's issues from the start, if there was any delay in getting the snake to a vet it is at the very least in part her fault. She deflected any concerns as "due to shipping stress".
3) Debbie was aware of the snake acting abnormally only hours after it arrived, but now claims that the buyer did something to it? REALLY?!?! Imagine if EVERY seller acted in the same manner.

What, the snake was dead out of the packaging? Well, you must of somehow hit his head while taking him out, killing him in the process. I can't take responsibility for it.

Debbie, do the right thing, for Toni, for yourself, and for the future of your business. If I were in your position I'd be praying that it doesn't have IBD.
 
At this point, Toni asks if it's OK to give her Caro Syrup, as that is something to give puppies and kittens (I can't remember the justification).

That's for constipated babies - high in sugar. I doubt Toni used this, so stop mentioning it as a 'possible' thing Toni used to make Toni look stupid/incompetent.

Bottom line - Toni got the snake to a vet in about a week. That's too late for you? I'm impressed Toni even found a vet that could do snakes. 8 days is pretty good for a concerned customer that admittedly has experience online in dogs/cats beforehand.

Debbie - you crammed three snakes (the picture of the snake on Toni's hand shows it to be fairly big - the box would have been too small for THAT snake alone) into a terribly undersized box with foil insulation. The insulation would have been FINE alone, but then you stuck a heat pack in there as well:

http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/twinkletowntoni/carbox2.jpg

You made a mid-transit-oven. Use a heat pack or use insulation - pick one. Don't use them both.

I don't blame Debbie for not thinking it's IBD, but I do hope she's very cautious about her own collection. Frankly, the part of the Vet's letter where he says 'it'd be appropriate for the seller to refund the snake' is just dumb. He's a doctor, not the Better Business Bureau.

The snakes were improperly shipped; one of them is showing signs of overheating neurological damage; you were made aware of the snake's condition the same day. Refund the money. Waiting "6 months" until you have something "of equal or higher value" available is not at all what I would consider a reasonable timeframe, especially considering the most important factor: the customer doesn't want this. I don't blame Toni. You roasted the snake - be glad the other snakes are alright. Refund the money and move on.
 
ForkedTung said:
OK, I'm confused on the website http://thegeckoprince.com/terms.html here there is no guarantee for animals other than live delivery.
but on the ad for what I believe is this animal ( the caramel albino female) it says this:here: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121775&highlight=debbie+prince

So let me get this straight:

Geckos are not guaranteed for seven days on the website, but in an ad for a Ball Python from the same seller the geckos are guaranteed for seven days but in the same ad the Ball Python is not guaranteed?
Does this somehow make any sense?
Why aren't all of the animals sold by this co. guaranteed?
Why would you mention that your other animals are guaranteed in an ad where the animal being sold is conspicuously not mentioned as being guaranteed?
Click to expand...


Here is her webpage before she changed it .
http://web.archive.org/web/20080211150744/thegeckoprince.com/terms.html
 
Since she said the heat pack was on the top, and repeatedly said the "car" was on the bottom, I can't see how the "car" is damaged by heat, when the other two snakes(which there is nearly no mention of) are supposedly fine.
I would guess that perhaps the caramel was damaged in shipping by the box being dropped? But if it were overheating, then either the other snakes should show MORE damag(being closer to the heat), or the caramel should have been on top.
Why hasn't there been a necropsy? Is the snake still alive? How long since shipping has it been? If it's been longer than a month, and the snake is eating, no regurging and no RI or mouth rot, then I'd not suspect IBD any longer.
From personal experiance with vets and IBD symptoms...
Even reptile vets will immediately jump to the possibility of IBD. This is not a bad thing, but it does mean a lot of times they say IBD.. when it's just injury or genetics.
IBD can be seen in blood, organs or brain tissues. BUT.. IBD can be present in just one or two places.. and not seen in the others. However, you cannot rule OUT IBD in any snake at all, ever. You cannot prove a negative in this case. If the vet euthanized the snake, and took samples of the brain to test, the vet will then say that the IBD might have been in bits of the brain other than the biopsied portions. Same for negative results on blood, or even on organ biopsys.
If there's no IBD in the blood.. then they normally want to biopsy the organs. If there's no IBD in the organs.. then they want to biopsy the brain(after euthanisia).
Unless you have a necropsy report you don't know what happened to the snake, so should not be accusing anyone of having IBD. If that snake has IBD, then it should be dead within about a month, and the other two should already be showing symptoms.

AFTER ALL THIS... the seller should offer a refund or replacement. With the risk of IBD, then I could understand requesting ONLY a refund, ONCE you provide proof the snake is dead and being necropsied. Why the snake was damaged is irrelevant to getting a refund or replacement. The snake obviously arrived damaged in some way.
*side note* Karo syrup is often used on small kittens or puppies(or small dogs) that are shocky, in order to raise the blood sugar when they have been stressed. It's not totally implausiable for someone knowledgable about stressed kittens to suggest "Hey I give them karo syrup, is there something like that I can give a stressed snake?". No, no one should give any snake karo syrup, but it's not as if she suggested giving the snake a cookie to eat.

The customer needs to provide the proof that the snake has been euthanized, then the seller should refund the money. The vet necropsy report should be posted no matter WHAT it says, to show whether either collection is at risk of IBD or NOT.

My $0.02.
Theresa Baker
 
Oh, and here's the kicker:

screen.jpg


Sucks when your customer is smart and knows how to use web-cached software, eh? The above page is taken from a cache on February 11, 2008.
 
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Home :: Ball Pythons

PAIR of het caramel glows from BHB!
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Posted by (Contact Me!)
November 21, 2008 at 11:15:28





Registered PetHobbyist User since 2007-07-24
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Click to enlarge

Offered for sale is this very cool project.

This is a pair of het caramel glows (double het hypo/ghost, het caramel.) I purchased them in September directly from BHB at Anaheim, but a new project awaits me. I can provide a copy of the sales slip and references if interested.

Anyhow, here's a little about the pair:

Picture one: The female is 190 grams. She's eating F/T rat pups.

Picture two: The male is 147 grams. He's a live rat pup eater.

The pair is only $2000 SHIPPED OBO anywhere in the continental US. MAY also ship to to the Hamm Germany show - additional costs would apply. Payment plans available - email or call for details.

We guarantee live delivery as long as someone 18 years or older is home to sign for the package as arranged. We also offer a 7 day guarantee on our geckos. Please see the website for more detailed information.

We ship anywhere in the continental United States. We are certified by Fed Ex to ship live harmless reptiles.

All orders must be paid in full prior to shipping. We accept postal money orders, cashier's checks, PayPal, or personal checks. Visa and Mastercard accepted through Paypal only at this time. Please make money orders or personal checks out to Debbie Prince. We welcome personal checks, but we will only ship once we can confirm the check has cleared our account. At the time of payment please provide us with your full name, complete shipping address, and daytime and nighttime phone numbers.

Please feel free to email or call with any questions. Thanks for looking!!

Debbie Prince
[email protected]
530-320-9185

The following was added on 11/19/08

This pair was hatched in August of 20008.
URL: http://thegeckoprince.com
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Home :: Ball Pythons

Caramel albino female - GORGEOUS!
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What's This?
Posted by (Contact Me!)
November 21, 2008 at 11:14:25





Registered PetHobbyist User since 2007-07-24
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Click to enlarge

Offered for sale is this this AMAZING caramel albino female. She was hatched in June of 08, and is currently 246 grams. She is eating F/T adult mice.

This girl is only $1800 SHIPPED OBO anywhere in the continental US. MAY also ship to to the Hamm Germany show - additional costs would apply. Payment plans available - email or call for details.

We guarantee live delivery as long as someone 18 years or older is home to sign for the package as arranged. We also offer a 7 day guarantee on our geckos. Please see the website for more detailed information.

We ship anywhere in the continental United States. We are certified by Fed Ex to ship live harmless reptiles.

All orders must be paid in full prior to shipping. We accept postal money orders, cashier's checks, PayPal, or personal checks. Visa and Mastercard accepted through Paypal only at this time. Please make money orders or personal checks out to Debbie Prince. We welcome personal checks, but we will only ship once we can confirm the check has cleared our account. At the time of payment please provide us with your full name, complete shipping address, and daytime and nighttime phone numbers.

Please feel free to email or call with any questions. Thanks for looking!!

Debbie Prince
[email protected]
530-320-9185
URL: http://thegeckoprince.com
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If it was overheating, that may be the cause, ( What kind of heat pack was used? they all have different peak temps, and temperature durations) but i also wonder if it was because of how the animals were shipped.... The snake that had the problems was on the bottom right? Were they placed in bags? ( if i missed this please just PM me/link) if so, could an animal being crushed by others cause these same symptoms?

I know of stories where multiple animals shipped in one box have killed others within that box due to the weight of the animals on top shifting and crushing them/causing enough injury to cause them to become lethargic and eventually die.

Whats with the change of the web page? Why was this done? When EXACTLY was payment sent for these animals? Was the buyer made aware of these changes to your terms before money was sent? were they made aware of the terms for these animals at the time of purchase? Did they even ask?
 
Mooing Tricycle said:
If it was overheating, that may be the cause, ( What kind of heat pack was used? they all have different peak temps, and temperature durations) but i also wonder if it was because of how the animals were shipped.... The snake that had the problems was on the bottom right? Were they placed in bags? ( if i missed this please just PM me/link) if so, could an animal being crushed by others cause these same symptoms?

I know of stories where multiple animals shipped in one box have killed others within that box due to the weight of the animals on top shifting and crushing them/causing enough injury to cause them to become lethargic and eventually die.

Whats with the change of the web page? Why was this done? When EXACTLY was payment sent for these animals? Was the buyer made aware of these changes to your terms before money was sent? were they made aware of the terms for these animals at the time of purchase? Did they even ask?
Click to expand...

I still have the box and heatpack and all contents . She said in a prior post it was a 40 hr pack . I have not confirmed this . The box was a virtual oven due to the padded foil panels within the styrofaom...add 3 6 mo old bps in bags adn not only did it most likely get too hot...the weight of the others and lack of space would/could have prevented the animal from expanding its lungs or so I am told by others with experience .
And no I was not notified of any change in policy . I went back to her site to retrieve her ph # and couldnt find it any more . The night I was at the vet trying to reach her .....another breeder searched the net for me and found it somewhere .
I dont think she posted the emails of my numerous requests for her ph # prior to and after shipping . As I told her my notebook had been misplaced a few days prior when I was in the hospital .
When I did get her ph # through another breeder and called from the vet that night she acted surprised and even reluctantly admitted it was even her on the phone . I finally just said Debbie I know this is you and proceeded to tell her what was going on and make sure she understood there was a possibility of IBD and she should lock down . That was when she told me her friend came over and verified she didnt have ibd ??
But no we were not notified that her guarentee was no longer available after we purchased ....it just became apparent that was what the scam was .
 
Mooing Tricycle said:
If it was overheating, that may be the cause, ( What kind of heat pack was used? they all have different peak temps, and temperature durations) but i also wonder if it was because of how the animals were shipped.... The snake that had the problems was on the bottom right? Were they placed in bags? ( if i missed this please just PM me/link) if so, could an animal being crushed by others cause these same symptoms?

I know of stories where multiple animals shipped in one box have killed others within that box due to the weight of the animals on top shifting and crushing them/causing enough injury to cause them to become lethargic and eventually die.

Whats with the change of the web page? Why was this done? When EXACTLY was payment sent for these animals? Was the buyer made aware of these changes to your terms before money was sent? were they made aware of the terms for these animals at the time of purchase? Did they even ask?
Click to expand...

sorry to skip your other question . these are the ads that the animals were purchased from . we made pymts as agreed beginning within a couple days of the ads running.
 
RB_BPz said:
Believe it or NOT...Yes and im guilty of this so im not just pointing the finger here
Click to expand...

A flipper is someone that buys animals strictly for the purpose of reselling them, not someone that buys animals for their collection and then decides to sell them later on.
 
myminskins said:
Offered for sale is this this AMAZING caramel albino female. She was hatched in June of 08, and is currently 246 grams. She is eating F/T adult mice.
Click to expand...

Debbie, who hatched this BP and who did you buy it from?

Will you do an IBD test to rule out that and to assure yourself and evryone else that you do not in fact have IBD running rampant in your collection?
 
Wolfy-hound said:
Since she said the heat pack was on the top, and repeatedly said the "car" was on the bottom, I can't see how the "car" is damaged by heat, when the other two snakes(which there is nearly no mention of) are supposedly fine.
I would guess that perhaps the caramel was damaged in shipping by the box being dropped? But if it were overheating, then either the other snakes should show MORE damag(being closer to the heat), or the caramel should have been on top.
Why hasn't there been a necropsy? Is the snake still alive? How long since shipping has it been? If it's been longer than a month, and the snake is eating, no regurging and no RI or mouth rot, then I'd not suspect IBD any longer.
From personal experiance with vets and IBD symptoms...
Even reptile vets will immediately jump to the possibility of IBD. This is not a bad thing, but it does mean a lot of times they say IBD.. when it's just injury or genetics.
IBD can be seen in blood, organs or brain tissues. BUT.. IBD can be present in just one or two places.. and not seen in the others. However, you cannot rule OUT IBD in any snake at all, ever. You cannot prove a negative in this case. If the vet euthanized the snake, and took samples of the brain to test, the vet will then say that the IBD might have been in bits of the brain other than the biopsied portions. Same for negative results on blood, or even on organ biopsys.
If there's no IBD in the blood.. then they normally want to biopsy the organs. If there's no IBD in the organs.. then they want to biopsy the brain(after euthanisia).
Unless you have a necropsy report you don't know what happened to the snake, so should not be accusing anyone of having IBD. If that snake has IBD, then it should be dead within about a month, and the other two should already be showing symptoms.

AFTER ALL THIS... the seller should offer a refund or replacement. With the risk of IBD, then I could understand requesting ONLY a refund, ONCE you provide proof the snake is dead and being necropsied. Why the snake was damaged is irrelevant to getting a refund or replacement. The snake obviously arrived damaged in some way.
*side note* Karo syrup is often used on small kittens or puppies(or small dogs) that are shocky, in order to raise the blood sugar when they have been stressed. It's not totally implausiable for someone knowledgable about stressed kittens to suggest "Hey I give them karo syrup, is there something like that I can give a stressed snake?". No, no one should give any snake karo syrup, but it's not as if she suggested giving the snake a cookie to eat.

The customer needs to provide the proof that the snake has been euthanized, then the seller should refund the money. The vet necropsy report should be posted no matter WHAT it says, to show whether either collection is at risk of IBD or NOT.

My $0.02.
Theresa Baker
Click to expand...



The snake is still alive so there has been no necropsy but there was a blood test done to look for inclusions which came back negative. So it's likely heat stroke and/or oxygen deprivation that caused it to be like it is. However when Debbie was first notified of this there is no way she would have know it was not IBD and still blew it off as no big deal. Since the snake is not dead a necropsy cannot be done, and as Debbie stated she won't take the snake back at this point to decide what should be done with it. At this point if the snake can have any quality of life it may not need to be euthanised unless someone needs piece of mind.

The 40 hour heat packs heat up to 155 degrees and use up the oxygen inside the box -- packed inside foil you can imagine how hot it was and how little outside air exchange there was -- why the other two were not affected who knows maybe they to a lesser extent - maybe being on the top they had more air circulation, maybe they were better hydrated, less stressed - maybe the snake was not right going into the bag in the first place -- it's anyones guess.
 
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