Info on record / Debbie Prince

[Ed Clark]

The 40 hour heat packs heat up to 155 degrees and use up the oxygen inside the box -- packed inside foil you can imagine how hot it was and how little outside air exchange there was -- why the other two were not affected who knows maybe they to a lesser extent - maybe being on the top they had more air circulation, maybe they were better hydrated, less stressed - maybe the snake was not right going into the bag in the first place -- it's anyones guess.

And maybe just maybe its the well documented genetic defects that most Caramels carry and display.

 

[ToshaMc]

And maybe just maybe its the well documented genetic defects that most Caramels carry and display.

GMAFB - then she misrepresented the snake to begin with

 

[dprince]

OK, I'm going to try and answer the questions/accusations as best I can.

*Just as a side note, when I shipped this snake, I was 5 days post-pardum. So when it is mentioned that I just didn't respond to emails, this may make things more clear (not an excuse, just trying to give more information on my state.) The date that Toni received the snake and emailed me repeatedly (starting 6 hours after the email stating she received the snakes and was happy), I was at the doctor's office and the lab/hospital dealing with my baby's jaundice. Which is why I didn't respond to her emails immediately. And when she called me, I was exhausted already emotionally and physically. I was completely caught off guard.

*If I'm a flipper, I'm quite terrible at it, since I took a $300 + hit on this sale. ($2,000 for the het caramel glow pair which I picked up in Anaheim from BHB, and $1800 shipped for the caramel albino, which I bought from John Manser (who was also her breeder.) The total sale was for $3500 shipped.

*There were two phone calls made to me by Toni after Toni received the snakes. One on 2/19/09, and one on 2/27/09.

*I did indeed change the terms of my website. Toni never inquired as to my terms, before, during, or after. Even after I changed the terms, I still offered to replace the snake, and I still stand by that offer.

*I would implore Toni to provide proof of any other emails sent to me other than what I've posted, as I've kept and posted EVERYTHING, including the photos that she sent (even knowing that it was possible to be torn apart for them.) I am here to tell you no such emails ever crossed my monitor. I want all the information possible out there. People will judge how they must - and that is certainly their right.

*I have only asked questions about possible things that could have happened to the snake out of my care. Could something have happened during shipping? Yes. Could something have happened in Toni's care? Yes. People may believe that something happened to the snake in my care. That is their right. I can only rely on my track record to speak for itself. I've shipped and had shipped to me literally hundreds of reptiles. Am I perfect? No. But I can safely say (for those to whom it matters) that I shipped three healthy snakes.

*In one of the first emails, I just ask the question "How am I supposed to know something didn't happen to her once she was received?" This is the only "accusation" on my part during this whole ordeal. I however have been accused of:
*sending a faulty snake
*overheating the snake
*suffocating the snake
*sending a snake with IBD out
*not caring (where does it say or imply that? *I* suggested that she take it to the vet. Because I didn't fall all over myself freaking out in emails means I don't care? I did enough freaking out, just not in email form, I assure you)
*Where does it say in my emails that I won't take responsibility and offer to make this right? Does the offer of a replacement animal not count?

*I asked her repeatedly to take the animal to the vet, to which she had many excuses why she didn't want to. When she did, I asked her to send me a vet report, which she did (albeit a month later, but no matter), and I offered to replace the snake. She stated in several emails that this was an amicable solution. Now it is apparently not.

*I would be more than happy to test and post results so that people would feel confident that my collection is IBD free. What test would people like to see me have performed, short of having one of my healthy appearing snakes euthanized and necropsied? Would blood tests be enough?

Honestly, how many of you would not ask yourself similar questions, if you were in my shoes? How many of you would just refund or replace based only on these emails (prior to the vet report)? All I was asking for was proof, plain and simple. I received it and offered replacement.

 

[jayefbe]

The bottom line is that Debbie sent a snake that the customer was not pleased with right out of the box. A refund should be in order.

On top of that, Debbie is not coming off looking very good.
1) shipping box was inappropriate for what she was shipping
2) Attempting to avoid the customer by removing her phone number. On top of that she refuses to acknowledge who she is when the customer does reach her by phone.
3) She deletes her guarantees once it becomes clear that a customer is unhappy.

Whether or not Debbie knowingly shipped an unfit snake, she is going to extra mile to AVOID making amends with an unhappy customer.

 

[Ed Clark]

It seems poor husbandry on your part to buy and resale animals without proper QT and then shipping a sick animal or shipping in a box the way you sent her which was a USED box.too small and improporly packed .Then not to even attempt to make things right from day one and not caring that your collection may have IBD is beyond poor husbandry .
Because of your obvious poor husbandry and poor customer service and uncaring attitude and lack of concern not only for customer satifaction but also indifference as to the possible health concerns this should raise for your own collection and custumers we cannot accept another animal from you .You can sell the animal and send a refund .

Health concerns is a big issue here, Toni did Debbie tell you the origin of this BP such as where she got it and who produced it?

Or any other details such as what bloodline from who?

 

[wyldwurm]

Debbie, could you please explain why you refuse a refund?

 

[jayefbe]

Honestly, how many of you would not ask yourself similar questions, if you were in my shoes? How many of you would just refund or replace based only on these emails (prior to the vet report)? All I was asking for was proof, plain and simple. I received it and offered replacement.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure most would agree. As soon as a customer expressed any concerns, I'd recommend they immediately send it back for a refund. That seems like standard practices.

 

[Ed Clark]

OK,

$1800 shipped for the caramel albino, which I bought from John Manser (who was also her breeder.) The total sale was for $3500 shipped.

Did you asked John about any health concerns before you bought this bp?

 

[johns6068]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure most would agree. As soon as a customer expressed any concerns, I'd recommend they immediately send it back for a refund. That seems like standard practices.

Sounds fair enough to me

Debbie, could you please explain why you refuse a refund?

Good question....To why the guarantee on her site is changing faster then the gas prices at my local gas station??? Nothing posted here even matches the current one on her site now...Specifically regarding to the guarantee of her animals she sells and refunds.

 

[ToshaMc]

Debbie -- Do you seriously not see how wrong this is? The snake was problematic right out of the box - irregardless of how it got that way - that makes it your responsibility to make it right to your customer. You didn't ask for proof, you didn't recommend a vet, you didn't tell her to return the snake - you blew her off and you told her you had no advice for her. And after all the additional hardship you put your customer through are you really surprised that she doesn't want to wait 6 months for you to get her a replacement snake? Trust me if you choose to stand on your laurels here you are going to end up looking like a crap. Do the right thing take the snake back and give a refund.

 

[147boas]

i think debbie needs to give toni her money back this tells me a lot about how debbie runs her business and i dont think she does a good job at it so i know i will never get any thing from debbie and i will tell every one i know to not buy from debbie

 

[lanceheads]

The bottom line is that Debbie sent a snake that the customer was not pleased with right out of the box. A refund should be in order.

What???????


Randal Berry

 

[jasballs]

The bottom line is that Debbie sent a snake that the customer was not pleased with right out of the box. A refund should be in order.

What???????


Randal Berry

Randal, He is a puppet he wont get back to you until the boss says he can LMAO!

 

[myminskins]

There were 2 blood tests done . Each sent to seperate labs . No inclusion bodies found .
We are once again . my daughter and I ..faced with making a choice to euthanize the animal and have the brain biopsied or keeping it qt . We have been heartbroken by the suffering of this animal from the 1st day and it continues to be painful . The snake ate again yestesrday according to the vet but has not completed a shed . It continues to show neuro symptoms .
We had intended to pay a visit after the shed and make a decision at that time . My daughter has been put through enough as have I .
Although it is atypical at this point to be IBD ....their is a question and should the animal die the brain will be biopsied for inclusion bodies . I know the vet as well as ourselves were hopeful she would improve at least to the point where she could live as a pet ...but not with us. We will not bring the animal back home . She remains with the vet and he has shown great patience and effort .
Anyone who has talked with me over the last 6 wks knows how painful this has been for us . Certainly this whole thing has been extremely hurtful and I do not like posting this on here . It did not have to come to this . When there is a final test certainly I will share that info .

 

[Lucille]

I was at the doctor's office and the lab/hospital dealing with my baby's jaundice. Which is why I didn't respond to her emails immediately. And when she called me, I was exhausted already emotionally and physically.

I can understand that. Congratulations on the new baby, and I hope the baby's health issues are resolved.

You offered a replacement, but your customer wants a refund, for what sounds like good reasons. You have been through a lot, and instead of getting mired down in argument, you might consider giving the refund and more, perhaps a discount on a future snake.

It would be good for your life, and your business, to just resolve this and as best you can, make your customer happy. This isn't the time for conflict.

 

[Ed Clark]

Nope, I didnt read the thread! Just know since Eddy posted a comment it wasnt about him.. Am I right?

Randal, He is a puppet he wont get back to you until the boss says he can LMAO!

John, the discussion is about a caramel albino bp that seems to have serious health issues.

 

[myminskins]

OK, I'm going to try and answer the questions/accusations as best I can.

*Just as a side note, when I shipped this snake, I was 5 days post-pardum. So when it is mentioned that I just didn't respond to emails, this may make things more clear (not an excuse, just trying to give more information on my state.) The date that Toni received the snake and emailed me repeatedly (starting 6 hours after the email stating she received the snakes and was happy), I was at the doctor's office and the lab/hospital dealing with my baby's jaundice. Which is why I didn't respond to her emails immediately. And when she called me, I was exhausted already emotionally and physically. I was completely caught off guard.



### all anyone has to do is look at the time on my qst email at 1 hr after pick up debbie ...stating she was too limp . I was 5 days out of the hosptal after a 4 day stay myself....and was hospitalized the wk prior as well.
you are a bold faced liar as I said before .


*If I'm a flipper, I'm quite terrible at it, since I took a $300 + hit on this sale. ($2,000 for the het caramel glow pair which I picked up in Anaheim from BHB, and $1800 shipped for the caramel albino, which I bought from John Manser (who was also her breeder.) The total sale was for $3500 shipped.


### you must be forgetting that you sent me a copy of the reciept from BHB for the car glow hets and a pr of lav hets for 3750 ....so actually you ended up with a pr of lav hets from BHB and only had to spend 550 for them when you add it all up . Then you flipped at least one of those lav hets on ks within 10 days of the ones I bought for a lot more than that . Your mistake is you keep coming on here lying to make yourself look better and its not flying .
You didnt take a loss ...you made a good profit but that is not my issue with you .
I will be more than happy to have this BHB reciept scanned next week and post it up to jog your memory and for the sake of the Truth .

*There were two phone calls made to me by Toni after Toni received the snakes. One on 2/19/09, and one on 2/27/09.

*I did indeed change the terms of my website. Toni never inquired as to my terms, before, during, or after. Even after I changed the terms, I still offered to replace the snake, and I still stand by that offer.



### you are detroying yourself



*I would implore Toni to provide proof of any other emails sent to me other than what I've posted, as I've kept and posted EVERYTHING, including the photos that she sent (even knowing that it was possible to be torn apart for them.) I am here to tell you no such emails ever crossed my monitor. I want all the information possible out there. People will judge how they must - and that is certainly their right.

#### did you post the one where you said the pix dont show anything ? just questioning your motives for posting them..certainly you expected everyone to agree with you . you are destroying yourself .



*I have only asked questions about possible things that could have happened to the snake out of my care. Could something have happened during shipping? Yes. Could something have happened in Toni's care? Yes. People may believe that something happened to the snake in my care. That is their right. I can only rely on my track record to speak for itself. I've shipped and had shipped to me literally hundreds of reptiles. Am I perfect? No. But I can safely say (for those to whom it matters) that I shipped three healthy snakes.



*In one of the first emails, I just ask the question "How am I supposed to know something didn't happen to her once she was received?" This is the only "accusation" on my part during this whole ordeal. I however have been accused of:
*sending a faulty snake
*overheating the snake
*suffocating the snake
*sending a snake with IBD out
*not caring (where does it say or imply that? *I* suggested that she take it to the vet. Because I didn't fall all over myself freaking out in emails means I don't care? I did enough freaking out, just not in email form, I assure you)
*Where does it say in my emails that I won't take responsibility and offer to make this right? Does the offer of a replacement animal not count?

*I asked her repeatedly to take the animal to the vet, to which she had many excuses why she didn't want to. When she did, I asked her to send me a vet report, which she did (albeit a month later, but no matter), and I offered to replace the snake. She stated in several emails that this was an amicable solution. Now it is apparently not.


###no it is not an option for us as I stated before numerous times


*I would be more than happy to test and post results so that people would feel confident that my collection is IBD free. What test would people like to see me have performed, short of having one of my healthy appearing snakes euthanized and necropsied? Would blood tests be enough?


### I think you could pay the vet here that has the snake to euthanize it and do the IBD final test after you refund our money . That is a good offer and go ahead and pay the kind Dr for the blood smears you suggested in your email on the 28th .



Honestly, how many of you would not ask yourself similar questions, if you were in my shoes? How many of you would just refund or replace based only on these emails (prior to the vet report)? All I was asking for was proof, plain and simple. I received it and offered replacement.

####Honestly Debbie not one single breeder I spoke to about this situation would have handled it the way you have . I know you said in your email that you didnt care how anyone else would handle it but perhaps you should take a lesson and do the right thing now and stop digging yourself a grave on here .
What matters right now is what you do now . There was no reason for you to come on here and lie about making a profit . I HAVE a copy of the reciept you sent me with the snakes from BHB . I just cannot scan it tonight as my scanner is down .Can do it monday though .
I dont intend to go back and forth on here . Just do the right thing and lets be done with each other .

 

[Lucille]

Debbie,
If there are unmentioned factors, like the costs of the baby's illness dipping into your available cash, why not talk to Toni via PM and see if you can work something out? I think if you are committed to a happy customer and show that, it can go a long way in solving this and putting an end to the conflict.

 

[myminskins]

####Honestly Debbie not one single breeder I spoke to about this situation would have handled it the way you have . I know you said in your email that you didnt care how anyone else would handle it but perhaps you should take a lesson and do the right thing now and stop digging yourself a grave on here .
What matters right now is what you do now . There was no reason for you to come on here and lie about making a profit . I HAVE a copy of the reciept you sent me with the snakes from BHB . I just cannot scan it tonight as my scanner is down .Can do it monday though .
I dont intend to go back and forth on here . Just do the right thing and lets be done with each other .

ok I didnt add correctly but you still didnt take a loss..you profitted .
just needed to correct my addition which is irrelevant .

 

[dprince]

Just as an aside..........not that it matters as I have AGREED TO REPLACE THE SNAKE......the screenshot provided (from my old terms page) is missing the "We reserve the right to refuse a guarantee due to improper care or husbandry" part. If someone who is computer savvy knows how to do this (I cannot figure out how to do it from the past webpages), that would be great.

The reason I took my phone number off of the webpage had NOTHING to do with this issue. I was getting multiple calls DAILY from folks whom I'd never done business with and were not interested in purchasing geckos from me. They would ask me all kinds of questions that are clearly stated on my webpage. I got two calls on Christmas day, for heaven's sake!! The last straw was when I got a call when I was in the hospital just after I'd had my baby. It's not that I don't want to help people, I just got really tired of the same phone calls asking the same questions that are clearly posted on my website. Honestly, I didn't think at all about Toni in this decision because she already had my phone number, and I *never* received any email asking me again for my phone number.

As for the reason I changed my terms, it had a lot to do with another conversation I had with a breeder about what we can REALLY guarantee and have control over live animals - especially once other folks' have them. One of the issues with leopard geckos is that sometimes they don't eat right away after being shipped (not unusual for many reptiles). I get emails all the time after someone receives a gecko about how they aren't eating, which is really common. In my old guarantee, I "guaranteed" that they were eating (which to ME means that in my care, they have been eating), but people might think that because the gecko didn't eat right away - sometimes not for weeks - that they were sold an unhealthy animal. This is an actual scenario that happened to me - I took back the animal after 7 days because it wasn't eating super worms (which I had encouraged her NOT to feed, and to feed mealworms instead, and this was after I had tried to tell her that this could be normal for leopard geckos.) I had to quarantine that animal for 60 days, because I didn't know what care it had received, had it been kept on sand, etc. I can honestly say that this incident also played into my decision to change my terms (though I've ALWAYS had the right to refuse any guarantee up since the inception of my website.) IRREGARDLESS OF THESE CHANGES, I HAVE OFFERED TO REPLACE THE SNAKE prior to even being brought to the BOI.

I don't currently have baby snakes, and Toni mentioned the possible IBD, which is part of the reason for the six month period. If she wanted a replacement snake now, though it hasn't been discussed, I could offer her a snake in my current collection.

The reason I didn't immediately ask for proof, or jump to taking the snake back and offering a refund was two fold. One, I was VERY post-pardum (FIVE DAYS), and quite honestly may not have put as much thought into my initial responses as I could have, which I apologize for. When I had more time and sleep, I suggested she take the snake to the vet (which she denies I ever did). Also, I admittedly don't currently have $1500 to send. This is a tough economy, and I am the soul provider in my home (with my husband and four kids), and $1500 is a lot of money (which is why I sold the snakes in the first place.) I am currently on maternity leave. I understand it is a lot of money to Toni as well, which is why I'm trying to resolve this. The last email I received from Toni just this morning stated that she wanted me to sell the replacement for her and just give her the money. I hadn't even had time to respond before this was brought to the BOI.

Bottom line is, the snake was fine when it left my care, and somewhere along the line, something clearly happened. The vet report clearly proves that, which I have never argued. I'm trying to make this right as best as I can. If people choose not to do business with me as a result, that is hugely unfortunate, because I honestly am trying.