Info on record / Debbie Prince

[Wolfy-hound]

I was told by the vets at UF that the only way to be certain was testing the brain. That somehow IBD could not be present in anything BUT the brain, but I feel that they were talking out their rears, since they also said there was no such thing as a neuro genetic issue in spiders.
But I was told this same thing by the vets at UF. I still would never euthanize a ball python that was eating and drinking etc for such a long period of time, when the blood tests came up totally negative.

 

[lanceheads]

I agree Theresa,
IF the snake is eating, defacating, etc. I wouldn't put it down, it would be in quarantine however for the rest of it's days though.

I didn't know that the brain holds the key for inclusion bodies. I thought it was found on a gross necrospy and inclusion lesions were found on major organs. I guess I better read Alicia's post again.
Thanks,
Randal Berry

 

[TattooLost]

Randal, I'm just curious as to whether or not you're still considering going to the vets office and taking a look at the snake in question? I know you mentioned at one point if you had time you'd go. I'd assume you'd need Toni's permission, so I'm wondering if she didn't grant that to you, or if you just didn't have the time?

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Like I said, the vets at UF told me that, but I don't think I've read anywhere that IBD could be found in the brain and NO where else, with biopsies.

Usual method, according to my personal experiances at UF talking to the vets there, is to take blood. If they see suspicious bodies, they can take a liver biopsy. If that shows suspicious bodies, then they can advise euthanisa and brain biopsy.

At the point that IBD is advanced enough to have gone to the brain, the snake cannot keep food down, is very far along in being unable to move properly, and the IBD is usually present in ALL places, but the vets REALLY wanted to say that the neuro pathology of spider ball pythons is really IBD. They're obviously wrong, or most collections would have long since been wiped out.

Sorry to hijack to a discussion of IBD. All my information on IBD comes from the vets at UF and discussions and paperwork read from them. I do not hold any of it to be "Absolute Truth" or proven. But since 147 mentioned it, I wanted to state that I've been told similar things.

 

[lanceheads]

Richard,
I didn't get permission. I know the vet, somewhat, but was told by another person in an email when I made the offer, to forget it, that the Vet wouldn't let me in to evaluate the snake. The other person shall remain nameless because it doesn't fit into this anyway. I think it was more of a proffessional courtesy anyway, (a nice way of telling me NO) LOL!

Anyway, I think the main reason this whole subject/topic is rife with problems is, IF the snake in question HAS IDB, then it's two shipmates have been exposed as well. IF the snake in question doesn't have IDB, Debbie doesn't owe her a dime, not even the vet bill.

Randal Berry

 

[TattooLost]

Richard,
I didn't get permission. I know the vet, somewhat, but was told by another person in an email when I made the offer, to forget it, that the Vet wouldn't let me in to evaluate the snake. The other person shall remain nameless because it doesn't fit into this anyway. I think it was more of a proffessional courtesy anyway, (a nice way of telling me NO) LOL!

Anyway, I think the main reason this whole subject/topic is rife with problems is, IF the snake in question HAS IDB, then it's two shipmates have been exposed as well. IF the snake in question doesn't have IDB, Debbie doesn't owe her a dime, not even the vet bill.

Randal Berry

That's kinda what I figured, and sounds about par for this course.

 

[reticguy76]

ibd can be found in liver cells also. as well as blood smears, although in blood smears, the pathologist has to kind of get lucky to have a sample that contains any inclusion cells

 

[Lucille]

I I've had a newborn baby with jaundice it's really not that big of a deal

You should have perhaps done a little research to see what a critical deal jaundice can be for a newborn. It can result in death, deafness, cerebral palsy, brain damage. While most elevated bilirubin levels resolve satisfactorily, we have no way of knowing how extensive this particular case was, and it can be very serious indeed.

she doesn't have a leg to stand on in court if it should go there.

Really? Are you an attorney? Exactly what expertise allows you to, ahead of time, forecast what a jury will say? Have you done extensive legal research to rule out all possible legal theories?

 

[TattooLost]

In my view, Tosha and 147 are simply acting as Toni's Yes-Men. They are so blindly sympathetic to her plight, they fail to step back and look at this from up above, and ask questions that I, and quite a few others here, feel should be answered.

I have never stated that Debbie shouldn't refund the cost of the snake. I'm of the belief that she should also pay for the INITIAL vet visit and blood tests. After that, I think it is Toni's bill. I don't see anywhere in any of the emails where Debbie asked the snake to incur boarding costs, or a necropsy. Even if she did, in light of the fact that the snake is STILL alive and thriving as far as we are informed so far, I think that changes things and there is no need to put the snake down.

Debbie has shown she has the $1500 to refund for the price of the snake. I think an itemized bill should be sent to her and the portion that she requested be added to that. I think those money orders should be sent to Toni, after the snake has been shipped to Dennis.

If I'm wrong in thinking this is a fair offer, please by all means debate me on it.

Ultimately, it's now it Toni's court. From what i've read, she's not willing to accept an offer close to this, unless it includes her keeping the snake and possibly killing it. That to me is not a fair resolution. If it were me in Debbie's shoes, you can damn well bet I'd insist on having the snake back, as well as proof that is was the snake I shipped at the vets office, before I'd pay a dime.

 

[wes smith]

As for the other snakes they are not being housed at Toni's or the vets. This has already been stated.

Can you please show me and the other members who have asked this question WHERE & what post this info was provided??? AKA- WHERE DOES TONI SAY THE OTHER TWO ARE NOT AT HER HOUSE? As far as I've read she's only avoided this question with responses like "what question haven't I answered"- Knowing FULL WELL we are asking if the two other snakes are at her house (which pretty much throws her "I'm so scared of IBD I must kill this caramel to know for sure" agurement out the window). If indeed the other two ARE at her house then she's not really that concerned about IBD. If she is THAT CONCERNED, then she needs to also have one of the snakes in her collection tested too..Right????
Toni's last post on this thread was on April 9th. Unless you've posted this info -I've kept up with this thread since Toni first posted it and I haven't seen a clear answer to this question, if I'm wrong then I invite you to quote the post that states WHERE the other two snakes are being housed.

Toni -- I understand your concern - you have at least two other animals and possibly your whole collection that has been exposed to this animal.

- Statement by YOU TOSHA on April 8th.

If the two other snakes aren't at her house then why would her WHOLE collection have possibly been exposed?, unless they ARE at her house.

 

[147boas]

In my view, Tosha and 147 are simply acting as Toni's Yes-Men. They are so blindly sympathetic to her plight, they fail to step back and look at this from up above, and ask questions that I, and quite a few others here, feel should be answered.

i was not going to post any more on this but there you go again assuming
things again

 

[Uroboros]

Any jackass that has done their research knows that inclusion bodies are most found in the liver and kidneys, not the brain.

Tosha, you're being an ass for being here "for someone else" (is there an IP check in order??)

Toni is trying to get away with something. Be sure of who you are defending..

 

[Junkyard]

Any jackass that has done their research knows that inclusion bodies are most found in the liver and kidneys, not the brain.

I am going to rain on your parade, IBD is common in the brain along with other organs. Do a little more research before making a fool of yourself on a public forum.

 

[Double LY]

I also believe that due to the fact that Debbie reneged repeated on the written and verbal terms of this sale -- she doesn't have a leg to stand on in court if it should go there. I would expect that given the breaches of contract and the condition of the animal a judge would likely award most costs to Toni and order the snake to be put down anyway. But who knows funny things happen in court.

Okay, I’m trying to figure out exactly who “reneged repeatedly on written and verbal terms”. I spent my lunch hour re-reading this thread and here is what I found …

Offer …

There was an offer on the table to send a replacement she doesn't have the funds to send. There was a suggestion for the seller to sell the replacement instead of sending the animal. The buyer would receive the funds instead of another animal. Seems like the buyer would be satisfied getting their money back and the seller would be essential sending a replacement as she was willing to do but to someone else.

I am willing to accept this offer . Thanks for the intervention.

ok . Debbie will you sell one of your animals in order to send us a refund and are you going to cover vet bills?

I am offering to - instead of giving you a replacement animal, sell said replacement animal and give you the funds instead. This is the SECOND time I have AGREED to one of YOUR solutions to this issue.

Toni keeps the sick snake to do whatever she sees fit and Debbie sends $1500. Problem solved, right?

Oh wait, not so quick. Now the vet bills come into play …

Certainly, it is acceptable to me to receive a refund . The vet bill has not yet been paid either . I requested an invoice and should receive it next week . His estimate at this point is $200 . This is for the blood smears you recommended and baytril and cortisone injections as well as the vet qt her for us since Feb 27th .Euthanization and final biopsy of brain will be an additional $300 ..estimate from vet. My vet is working with Dr Jacobsen . We can have the answer much sooner than 6 months.

No response to the vet bill questions, but another counter (this time the snake can either be returned to Debbie before a refund or kept by Toni until the $1500 is received) …

I am going to make my last offer here.

*I will sell one of my current snakes as the said “replacement snake”

*After the sale of the replacement (once that buyer has received and is happy with their snake), and sooner if I can, I will send Toni a MO for $1500.

*I will post a picture of said MO in this thread. I will send it out priority mail with delivery confirmation. I request that Toni post in this thread that she received said MO.

*As I am 100% confident that I didn’t send a sick snake, I will take the snake back. It will be quarantined (as any new acquisition would be) from the rest of my collection. Toni can choose to either send the snake now if she doesn’t want to be responsible for it until then, or she can send it when she receives the $1500. If the snake dies in her care, she is to send the body to me and I will have it necropsied with my own vet and post the report. It is her choice. If the snake dies in my care, I will have it necropsied and post the report. If she doesn’t, I will post pictures in a few months …

*Toni has 72 hours to respond to this offer. If she decides not to take it, then I will consider this over and done with.

Now the $1500 is an acceptable refund and the vet costs will be dealt with later …

Debbie, As stated prior you have 10 business days before I proceed . I have emailed you my snail mail address .
We are agreeable to 1500 in m.o. for the cost of the snake .

As for the vet bill and the rest I cannot say we will be settled after that but certainly we agree on the refund as stated numerous times …

I can update you asap on any other amendment but certainly the 1500 is acceptable for the cost of the snake and would show you are trying... once it is received . I cannot at this time say for certain we are safe and agree to this as a final settlement . Will let everyone know once we receive the final results of the biopsy(s).
I appreciate you offering to send the refund and hope this is over soon.

Not so fast, now the vet bills HAVE to be paid as well …

Debbie needs to take care of the 327 in vet bills she requested or should I say insisted upon and advised.

I am not willing to accept any less than that ...

And finally we end up with Debbie back along with pictures of the $1500 in money orders and instructions to send the snake to Dennis …

I’ve been able to get the refund for Toni. There are three money orders, each for $500.

I’ve asked Dennis Hultman, and he’s agreed, that I can send him the MO’s, and Toni can send him my snake. Because Toni apparently doesn’t think I’ll have the snake necropsied if she dies, Dennis has agreed to hold the snake for a few months, and he will have her necropsied if she dies. Once Dennis receives the snake from Toni, he will forward on the MO’s to her. If this works for Toni, please send me a private email letting me know as much, as I'm not going to read this thread.

My opinion of this matter is both parties have been an absolute hindrance to each other with respect to finalizing this refund. Between the $1500 is fine/no now I need the vet bills covered and the keep the snake/no send the snake back to me/no send it to a third party I don’t see where an agreement was ever/could ever be reached. At this point I think all uninterested parties should wash their hands clean of this whole ordeal. Toni has stated on the BLBC that she’s not coming back to the BOI so I don’t think there’s anything more that can be done over here.

 

[147boas]

Any jackass that has done their research knows that inclusion bodies are most found in the liver and kidneys, not the brain.

Tosha, you're being an ass for being here "for someone else" (is there an IP check in order??)

Toni is trying to get away with something. Be sure of who you are defending..

I am going to rain on your parade, IBD is common in the brain along with other organs. Do a little more research before making a fool of yourself on a public forum.

Uroboros who is the jackass

 

[jasballs]

Uroboros who is the jackass

Do you want me to answer that for him? Seems like that is what happens in this thread anyway!

 

[147boas]

Do you want me to answer that for him? Seems like that is what happens in this thread anyway!

 

[147boas]

so has any on heard any thing

 

[dprince]

OK, I feel I should update this situation.

It’s been three and a half weeks (since 4/24/09) since I posted pictures of the MO’s I’ve purchased for Toni. I’ve heard nothing from Toni. Not one word.

She is aware of the MO’s that are purchased and ready to send to her upon return of the snake, as she has apparently posted about it on the Bush League.

I don’t know what to make of any of this. Honestly, I just want to be done.

I’m trying to be as accommodating as possible, but there has to be a point when I get to lick my wounds and move on.

I’d like to offer different possibilities for Toni.

1. Return the snake to me, and I will send the MO’s to her.
2. Send the snake to Dennis Hultman, who has graciously agreed to be a “mediator” in this situation. He has offered to hold onto the snake for a few months, and have her necropsied if she dies. I will send the MO’s to Dennis, and he can send them onto Toni (or I can send them directly to Toni.)
3. Do nothing, and I will consider this deal done and over.

I truly don’t mind which option is chosen. However, I’m going state that I need an answer by Monday, May 18, no later than 12 pm (noon) PST. I’m not trying to be a jerk, but I need to have closure on this subject, as I’m sure Toni does too. As it will have been almost four weeks by then since I’ve purchased the money orders, I feel that she has had more than adequate time to decide. If I’ve heard nothing by then, I will consider this deal done and over. It’s time to move on, one way or the other. Contact by email is requested, as I'm not reading this thread. Thanks.

 

[ToshaMc]

Debbie - she already told you she wasn't going to accept your new deal.