One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

[Neverland Dragons]

I agree with Cat_72, we need to discuss this as a community and try and understand this virus as best we can. And I also believe that it means hearing all opinions. It also means being able to have different views and being able to discuss them in a productive manner.

Adenovirus has been hushed for too long. If I had even heard of it when I started breeding, I would have tested. I think that the accuracy of the two different tests and whether or not the virus is continually shed is an area that should be explored further. I do know that Lou Ann Miller at the Univ of IL lab had said she was going to talk to Dr. Jacobson about them both doing their respective tests on the same sample and comparing the results. That would be a great first step.

I think we should be able to talk about adenovirus and not feel like our existence as a breeder is threatened. I was told by someone I really respected that If I went public with finding adeno in my colony that it would ruin me. I decided in the end, I needed to do what I felt was right and inform the bearded dragon community so we could try to get a handle on this virus. Yes, I do have an agenda. It is really pretty simple too. The dragon community needs to talk about adenovirus openly, get educated as much as possible, and discuss it to learn as much as we can before we infect the entire U.S. bearded dragon population with it because we didn't know any better.

No, the tests are not perfect, but it is something and breeders need to test. I have not heard of there being false positives before. I asked Lou Ann about this, as I had some tough decisions to make that were riding on these tests. She told me that if they see the virus, the dragon is positive. Now, if there is a dragon that tests positive and then subsequently tests negative, it makes me question whether or not dragons are continually shedding viral cells. That is something that is key to detecting a positive animal. I did ask Dr. Wentz regarding the accuracy of the EM test he developed and he said that the carriers tested positive each time and the negatives tested clear. He also said that a male that died at 6 years of age was still shedding cells. This not definitive answers for anything, but it is important information which should be considered thoughtfully. I also know that Clyde was shedding very rare (in numbers) adeno cells at two years of age. To me, this is another piece of information that is useful.

I think it is irresponsible to say because there are no definitive answers, we should not do anything. I do not agree with the people who are saying that certain breeders (I do not know if I am included in this) are using scare tactics to try and get people to not breed anymore. I even had someone tell me that a breeder at a show said that our agenda was to "get others to stop breeding so we could charge more for our dragons." This is not and has never been a money issue for me. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard. It is about preserving the U.S. dragon population and doing what is right by them.

I wish more breeders that were dealing with it would come forward. I respect their right to keep it private and handle it how they feel is best for them, but I do think it would help to understand this more. Every breeder that goes through this probably has a little bit different experience and I think that would go a long way in educating us as a community.

I do think that knowing where a large portion of the infected animals came from is important. At this point, it is water under the bridge and would at least help us to understand how come it is in as many colonies as it is. I hope together, we can have an open discussion and move closer to having more breeding colonies that do not have adenovirus and produce healthy bearded dragons.

 

[Tere Salazar]

As far as the fecal testing goes, I was told there are no false positives, only false negatives. This could be due to several reasons. I'm going to give my understanding of the way the virus and testing works, and I'm quite sure if my understanding is incorrect, somone will be there to correct me.

The fecal tests work by finding cells of the virus that are shed through fecal material. When a dragon first gets the virus, it will have a "surge" of shed cells, so to speak. The longer the dragon has had the virus, the less cells they will shed. If you're collecting from an animal that may have had the virus for a while, and the fecals aren't collected at the appropriate time, or are mishandled in any way, they will likely show a false negative.

I was told by Lou Ann Miller and Denise Latanzi (after all her research) that the absolute best time to collect fecal samples is within the first two-three poops after brumation, or any time the dragon's immune system might not be as strong (such as parasites). You want to collect those samples after they've had time to "store up" the viral cells, so that they're easier to detect.

These two things, in themselves, could easily explain any testing positive the first time, then testing negative thereafter. The subsequent negative tests would suggest, at least to me, that the animal wasn't SHEDDING the cells at that time, NOT that they don't have the virus.

In my case, only one of my dragons had been brumating (Lizzie--the negative one), and two of the poops were the dragons' first poops in a week (Aphrodite and Eros). My understanding is that those were the best samples to send. Even knowing that the rest of the dragons were on regular routine, pooping daily (or several times daily, as the case may be) the fecal still picked up those viral cells.

As for finger pointing, I will do that right now...concerning my animals that currently test negative. Lizzie came from Tracey's Beardies here in Arizona. Eros originally came from Dragon's Den. What I will not do, however, is state where my positive animals originated, as there are many ways they could have come into contact with the virus, and it is unfair to assume they came from the original breeder with the virus.

And as for thinking that someone has an agenda, you're darn right I have one...to try to keep other people from having to go through what my dragons and I have. Whether anyone cares to recognize it or not, those breeders who sold infected animals have affected thousands of animals, and their owners...and all their offspring, and anyone who bought that offspring, and anyone who has come into contact with those positive animals or their offspring. Anyone see a pattern here?

Cheri, what bothers me most is that people are saying this is no big deal...that this virus isn't important. Let that person hatch out babies that, for all intents and purposes, should be healthy, and watch as the babies wither away to nothing until they finally die. Or how about the ones who do survive, that at the age of 2 months, they are still 4" long...and watch them struggle daily just to live. Better yet, let that person sit on the phone contacting every person they have ever sold to, or anyone that has ever come into contact with their animals, and listen to the reaction, all the while knowing that their entire colony could also have been infected...just because of your own animals. Yes, this virus has an effect. Only someone who doesn't care about these precious animals can say it doesn't.

 

[Dachiu]

We stated :

To the bearded dragon community, we believe this is where we all need to step up to the plate. Those who have had positive results through EM testing - please consider additional PCR testing with Dr. Jacobson - You have the fecal samples that are needed to further any research and possibly identify or discount additional strains of the adenovirus in the North American bearded dragon population. Identification is paramount - it is the first of many steps needed.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89703
Note to interested parties - Private correspondence was initiated by Cheri in response to our last post.

Our opinion has not changed from the original posts we have made. There are too many unanswered questions, lop-sided facts (that are presented to only support certain points of view) and hearsay to make any informed decisions at all. Oh, and don’t forget the partial mis-quotes and snide comments.

Lets start by addressing Cheri’s latest mis-quote :

I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

Taking any post in context when offering a quote would be an excellent starting point for intelligent public conversation.

Back to your question - Sorry, but we would not post a name publicly any faster than you would offer the names of people with positive confidential test results. Suffice to say, Pete did not only acquire his initial stock from overseas - but also purchased dragons from various sources within the USA.

It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together.

The adenovirus was identified and documented in vitticeps in 1996 by Dr. Jacobson - then found “heavily” in the captive population shortly thereafter? Finding that odd we asked a few pointed questions of the appropriate people and discovered that the trail of information leads back to the early 90’s, if not late 80’s… Before Pete.

…in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines.

Really? Did you observe this by first-hand experience Cheri? Did you purchase a 1st generation Red Flame from Pete?
We did… several actually, and “in fact” from our experience the above statement could not be further from the truth.

Everything presented publicly so far has been opinions and nothing more. Ok, one opinion was of a valued member of the reptile research community was given - BUT those opinions are being presented to the community by people other than themselves. Cheri, did you edit, delete parts or choose not to mention additional information provided in consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson?

I feel like I’m watching a game of “Pong”. The information just bounces from one side to another. Research has NOT been done on the adenovirus in bearded dragons. The best thing we can do is to test and re-test and try to gather as much information as possible. That is what we have told others to do and that is exactly what we are doing. Do not form an opinion on what others say (including us) but rather do your own research and your own testing.

As for the hush aspect of this whole situation - Cheri, YOU are the one that doesn’t want the broad spectrum of information available. The only facts that are acceptable are the ones that support your point of view - and the minute something goes awry from your path, you want to start pointing a finger. The minute people start asking intelligent questions - up pops a sob story.

The whole thing is there are some very angry breeders now that people are testing and questioning.... NOW WHY WOULD THEY BE?

Who is angry? Certainly not us. In fact, we are happy that more people are testing their animals. Quite frankly, the more testing that is done… the more things seem to differ from what we have been told is so. The more people who present information, the better.

Shall we begin a list of misinformation that has been presented? Or perhaps a few questions that question/contradict this misinformation? Or maybe it would be better to just move on and address some of the current issues and hypothesis.



Fact - The person who Cheri points her finger at is NOT the person responsible for introducing adenovirus to the USA.

Fact - Adenovirus is NOT the reason said person is no longer actively breeding dragons… just a sad assumption to support a theory.

Fact - Josh worked for SDR and was hands-on with their Trans project. Cheri, you really should “check it further” with a simple phone call to Bob before making unfounded assumptions. (Considering the fact that Paul lived in New Jersey - He must have very long arms.)

Fact - I’m confused. Exactly where in any of Paul’s posted comments on the health of the Translucent dragons was adenovirus mentioned?

Fact - There are many breeders listed on the Bearded Dragon Breeders Network that have recently tested positive for adenovirus. Chances are that their animals were positive previous to testing and yet, oddly enough, are highly recommended for the health of their animals.

Fact - There are several reports of no mortality rates in clutches of adenovirus positive hatchlings. How can this be based on the information provided? What changed?

Fact - The viral outbreaks in animals that died in most cases, had other issues in addition to adenovirus. Shhh… that’s a secret.

Fact - There have been a couple reports of adenovirus positive babies - produced by adults who tested negative.

Wendy stated :

I did ask Dr. Wentz regarding the accuracy of the EM test he developed and he said that the carriers tested positive each time and the negatives tested clear.

Fact - We have animals in our possession that previously tested positive for adenovirus - Curious thing is - so did a sibling 2-3 months ago who has since then returned multiple negative results. Once positive, always positive? Obviously not in this case.

Glaring Fact - The one thing with any discernable consistent pattern is the inconsistency of the information provided by certain parties.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Vicki-

when I stated testing results being positive or negative regarding Dr. Wentz, I was referring only to the tests he did on his animals. I was not making assumptions about all dragons being tested. I was trying to finish my post before I had to go somewhere and I guess I did not make it clear enough that I was referring to only the tests he had done. That is why I said I thought it was important information, but did not provide definitive answers for testing results.

I also agree that it is important to point out that there are clutches that test positive, but do not have any die offs. I hope it is known why at some point. It could be that there is more than one strain or it could be that it effects the immune system of various dragons differently. It could also be what you are suggesting regarding there being other health issues present with the dragons. We just do not know. I have only spoke of what was the case with my dragons. That is why it is important for others to speak of their experiences. The more information the better.

 

[Cat_72]

That is why it is important for others to speak of their experiences. The more information the better.

That was pretty much the whole point of my somewhat ranting 4 am post. I just want to see folks working together to solve these riddles, not fighting amongst each other. Thanks, Wendy.

 

[fstop2100a]

I have found at all times that Vicki has been more then willing to answer questions and spend time with me on the phone addressing whatever concerns or questions that I have. She is a most valueable source of information and frankly given the help she provides to the dragon community I can't imagine that she and her husband will provide anything but the ABSOLUTE TRUTH as they know it..

 

[Dachiu]

We were referring to the information Dan provided in his paper also. He states that the testing he did returned 100% correct results, 100% of the time. That may somehow be true for Dan’s results - but something tells me this is wrong, for I know of no test available that claims to return 100% accurate results.

I agree, and always have agreed, with what you state in your second paragraph. Sadly, there is too much fear involved for many of those people to come forward and state anything. The way this whole adenovirus situation is being presented is not conductive to the end results we all desire. People are afraid to ask questions and others are also afraid to answer many of the questions that are asked. Why? Because simply put - the implications of having the spotlight turned on them scares the crap out of them. God forbid if a breeder were to come out publicly and say - “I have had no mortality at all, from a clutch of positive babies that all appear healthy and are thriving. What’s up with that?” It will never happen due to fear of if you don’t follow the crowd, you must be against the crowd.

This is such nonsense. People fear the dark - and I believe that the information that is presented by certain people is shadowy at best. We need to ask questions, receive honest replies and we need to not be targets of derogatory comments from a selective few for asking our questions.

 

[fstop2100a]

It only seem logical that the results all desire is to find a cure for this virus. It is obvious that containment is no longer possible given the time frame that has elasped and the number of infected dragons that are out there.

It boils down to importance and money with all research. There are humans that are dying everyday from all kinds of issues that require study. I would not think that a Dragon virus ranks that high up on the research list or the grant money. Until someone wants to spend 20k and disect the DNA strands of healthy and infected dragons this will go on and on. Nature will weed out the sick and they will die. If all dragons become infected they will all die and the spieces will become extinct. That is the way nature handles such things with animals and humans. This is not the end of the world as we know it. There are far more important issues. Just wait until a member of your family is facing a mortal illness. Dragons will not be on the top of your mind then. Just try to keep this all in perspective with life. Richard

 

[Dachiu]

Some Interesting Reading

In searching for information that would help us to understand the adenovirus in general and how it can effect its hosts I came across this book. This is not reptile related, but a good read on viruses in general. Also interesting to note that the lecture on enteric Adenoviruses are listed under “Viruses We Eat”.
http://www.amazon.com/Pathogenic-Vi...ef=sr_1_1/102-1722077-6897755?ie=UTF8&s=books


In this article the pathogenesis of various ingested pathogens is discussed.
Table 3.2 - Factors increasing the Risk or Severity of Food borne Illness is on page 11.
http://www.mass.gov/Eeohhs2/docs/dph/environmental/foodsafety/ref_manual/chap_3.pdf

 

[pscaulkins]

Hi,
This is my first post here. I have been following this discussion. I have two sub adult beardies that I tested and both were positive from two different breeders. The reason I am posting is the reaction from one breeder. I asked him to test his breeders when my girl wasn’t thriving. He told me to test so I did and then he demanded to see the results. Well, both were positive. This breeder should have tested when I suspected it. He finally tested a few months later. I feel had he listened and read all the posts he should have tested and it could have saved someone a lot of heart ache. If breeders sell dragons for money, they need to held accountable just like businesses. It’s one thing to sell an adeno positive dragon and not know it but if a buyer says hey my baby is positive than the breeder has the responsibility of testing or the liability falls on them. The attitude from this breeder was really disgusting to me. Had he tested and came to me, I would have tested and that be the end of it. I would have understood.

I think a website or forum that has the symptoms that people can go to that suspect adeno would be a great asset to the beardie communities. I know I would volunteer my experiences and we could all gain knowledge. I think the symptoms are far more widespread than what is published since there is no money in research.

I agree with ravin7678, I think the friends of this breeder is biased. I kept quiet about my problems with Magick’s breeder for the reasons your post on the website got. So sad. My heart went out to you.

I have two wonderful beardies and when they start suffering I will do the right thing by them. I have also decided that I cannot bring another dragon into my home after these two go because I do not know if our whole house is contaminated. This is just so sad for us.

I can’t thank Wendy and all the other breeders for coming forward with this information enough.

 

[pdragon]

Cheri,
Once again you're jumping the gun, and making assumptions without having the full story. I started working with a group of 2.2 trans that were imported from germany in December of 2000. At the time I was a full time employee of sandfire, and breeding dragons on the side. Bob and allen both decided that it was best for me to raise these trans indoors because of the fear of the sun killing them. These origional trans were not "sickly", but were suffering from mbd, had some vision problems, and had this odd goofy-like stance. Later in 2001, I got one of the males to breed to an orange female, and produced some suprisingly healthy hets, with a few having corkscrew tails and kinked backs. I gave sandfire half of the babies, and kept the other half for myself. These hets were bred to each other the following year, which is inbreeding, but I needed to in order to produce them. This same year, I got one of the female trans imports to lay a clutch of eggs fathered by a hypo male. Every one of the babies in the clutch had corkscrew tails and/or crooked backs except for one male. In 2003, I bred the two semi-unrelated hets together which produced the trans Sandfire was selling at daytona that year. Paul Morlock took six trans for himself, two were trades with his lines, and the remaining four were never paid for. Later that year, Paul disappeared, and neither bob or I have heard from him since. Paul did produce a few trans from a group of hypos which is mainly what he is referring to. The hets that I got from him on trade both died, and as far as I know, he was never able to get his line up and going. His trans were hypotrans(trans with clear nails). The trans I started off with were normal trans, like what most of them are today. The reason why I didn't put myself out in the open is mainly because I was working for another breeder, and didn't want to create a "conflict of interest". I have a lot of respect for bob, and wouldn't want to ruin our relationship. The main problem with the trans, and why it's taken me so long to have many of them available is because I had to remove as many negative traits as I could. Do my transluscents look sickly?
Cheri, as what was posted before, you need to refer people to the breeder rather than everyone getting third party info from you. "This I know you know" garbage is just your way of trying to intimidate people. This would be like me saying that "I know that you know that breeders are also testing positive for corona virus, along with adeno". Did I just open a can of worms?! Josh

 

[CheriS]

seems to be an awful lot to respond to that I sure do not remember the way someone is making it now.

Vicki, I have tried to understand your post #63 and also had 3 other people try. Much like that thread you link to that no one could figure out so did not respond to and THAT is when "Private correspondence was initiated" by me in response to your last post on that thread, to ask you to explain what you meant. I still did not understand what you meant and as best I can determine you say it is a "what if"... but anyway, again can you explain this as none of us can figure out again what you are talking about?

Lets start by addressing Cheri’s latest mis-quote :
Originally Posted by CheriS
I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

That is not a quote (or misquote as you claim... by me)... that is something you said in post #52. what is this suppose to mean? We thought maybe this is something in #52 that you are saying I said before, but again, can not find it so was this just a typo as a quote attributed to me that you acutally made?

Back to your question - Sorry, but we would not post a name publicly any faster than you would offer the names of people with positive confidential test results. Suffice to say, Pete did not only acquire his initial stock from overseas - but also purchased dragons from various sources within the USA

You did post his name, not me and no one said anything excluding that he purchasing dragons in the US, or was the first here with this virus......your point here or are you adding words that were never said by me?

The adenovirus was identified and documented in vitticeps in 1996 by Dr. Jacobson - then found “heavily” in the captive population shortly thereafter? Finding that odd we asked a few pointed questions of the appropriate people and discovered that the trail of information leads back to the early 90’s, if not late 80’s… Before Pete.

I said the BULK that infected the popular lines today, not who introduced it to the US, I think I have said that 3 times now, NOT what you are saying it's public knowlegde that there were prior cases not only in the US but also Europe, New Zealand and Australia, I thought I had also made that clear in this thread and I know I emailed you or posted the same to you long ago, not only with vitticeps but barbata and lawsons.. Again, you are adding words to what I said......if you know something we don't please say it yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
…in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines.
YOU REPLIED:
Really? Did you observe this by first-hand experience Cheri? Did you purchase a 1st generation Red Flame from Pete?
We did… several actually, and “in fact” from our experience the above statement could not be further from the truth.

That's interesting as the first generations being nice and later crosses not so nice came from not only people that bought them, supplied photos to us that show some really nice animal, archives online, but also yourself to me in an email Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:20 PM
EMAIL FROM VICKI:
> "Flame" from Chris Allen came from us. He is a Redflame X Sandfire
> cross. So if you breed that male to something - say a FlaminTiger you
> may not realise that their fathers are the same dragon. Here is the
> break down
> Redflame came directly from Pete Weis the first year he had them. (they
> were nice red to start, but stresssed easily
> so I think he crossed them out because they never looked the same
> afterwords.)
> The Sandfire came from Nick (east coast rep for sandfire before Paul
> took over)
* a note on the above statement,, Chris Allen states " Flame was from Chuck Tornetta, not the Dachiu and that he was from Chuck's own pairing of dragons. Flame is from weis redflame and sandfire's sandfire red lines"

So I guess there is always the possibility that you got some dragons mixed up since he said Flame did not come from you and maybe there is more confusion in the quality of the first generation Redflame dragons that you bought and initially told me were nice. I do not know, I can only go on what you and others said about the them prior. If you have changed your take on that now, or what you prior claimed, I can edit that information,

Another note: You yourself call Paul Sandfire's east coast rep, he had the trans, he was breeding them, he has MANY post on KS in the archives and he claims he produced them.... he did not have to have LONG ARMS to be their East Coast Rep, sorry about Josh who was not mentioned anywhere at that time, by Paul or you? He may have worked for Sandfire, I have no idea, he was not a part of any conversations then with you, Paul or Bob and I did discuss Paul with Bob and Kevin Dunne in 2005, they claim he was their rep and had the trans...........Paul ALWAYS described the original trans as non thrivers, sickly and dying.. if he made that up and lied, why did you in your email of 2005 call him their East Coast Rep and in 2003 he posted many times about the trans and how weak they were..... it's there in KS links I posted earilier in his own post. We know that many of them test positive now for Adeno, I have no idea if they did back them or if any necropsy was done, it's a moot point now. Again, I do not see what you are getting at or claiming my misstatements over... or why?

The only thing *I* present to the community about how to handle infected dragons is the same as Dr Wentz and Dr Jacobson, is taken from their published works, with their consent, both appearing in full body on my website for anyone to check, so they are being presented by themselves, not me. If you choose to spin that along with all these other added words into something it is not, that is your choice.

Cheri, did you edit, delete parts or choose not to mention additional information provided in consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson?

NO, and even implying by questioning such on here tells me and I hope others something about the depths some sink to.

It is very insulting to even have to answer such a filthy question, but its there(why does that not surprise me) so.......HE chaged the way references were listed and did replace that one with the original one, but it did not alter the content of the message. As far as consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson, I talk to him on the phone and in email about many things, including his yapping dogs he loves, when he walks them. Have I transcribed those and put them public, no, they were private conversations or emails.. and your point is?

If you have something the rumor mill is grinding, please just ask it outright, it makes it much easier on everyone.... remember what I discussed with you in email about the rumor mill and you & Rob? Supposly telling people who tested positive that all breeders have this and to just sell them? I am not into playing those games and perfer to address the suppose source direct, even if they lie at least it was put out there and no snide comments, implications or more lies spread behind someones back.

This time, the information is getting out. You know, this could have all been stopped or controlled at least, years ago if people admitted there was a problem and warned/educated other, tested and did not sell animals they know or have strong reason to think they are infected, there probably would not be the Wendy's, Suzanne's, Tere's or the many others dealing with this from the same line, that is what I object to and is MY PERSONAL AGENDA, it bothers anyone......Tough. You know we have kept data on the tranmission of this since 2002, there is no question where the BULK of it originated from and what line

Sob Stories? there is another one it would be nice for you to explain? I guess not liking to see people have to watch their baby dragons die, be sick or the dragons they love be positive and ruin their plans and hopes, to you is a sob story?

All these other "Facts" in our post, which you attribute to me, but was not anything I said, I will address in another post, this is getting pathetically long as it is, but sadly this seems to be the route any discussion seems to take on. We have been trying to post about adeno and get people to test and not sell infected dragons since 2002.. each time this happens and everyone gives up.. so another cycle of new people that want to breed come along and it is business as usual as long as the sells flow, and then they find those dragons they so carefully picked out are producing sickly, non thriving babies or positive for adeno ones. Many times the new breeders never knew they had a problem, never even knew there was a RISK of a problem.... I do not want to see that repeated again.

 

[Denisebme]

Hi,
This is my first post here. I have been following this discussion. I have two sub adult beardies that I tested and both were positive from two different breeders. The reason I am posting is the reaction from one breeder. I asked him to test his breeders when my girl wasn’t thriving. He told me to test so I did and then he demanded to see the results. Well, both were positive. This breeder should have tested when I suspected it. He finally tested a few months later. I feel had he listened and read all the posts he should have tested and it could have saved someone a lot of heart ache. If breeders sell dragons for money, they need to held accountable just like businesses. It’s one thing to sell an adeno positive dragon and not know it but if a buyer says hey my baby is positive than the breeder has the responsibility of testing or the liability falls on them. The attitude from this breeder was really disgusting to me. Had he tested and came to me, I would have tested and that be the end of it. I would have understood.

I think a website or forum that has the symptoms that people can go to that suspect adeno would be a great asset to the beardie communities. I know I would volunteer my experiences and we could all gain knowledge. I think the symptoms are far more widespread than what is published since there is no money in research.

I agree with ravin7678, I think the friends of this breeder is biased. I kept quiet about my problems with Magick’s breeder for the reasons your post on the website got. So sad. My heart went out to you.

I have two wonderful beardies and when they start suffering I will do the right thing by them. I have also decided that I cannot bring another dragon into my home after these two go because I do not know if our whole house is contaminated. This is just so sad for us.

I can’t thank Wendy and all the other breeders for coming forward with this information enough.

Sandy,
First off, I can not express how sorry I am that this has happened to you. I deeply appreciate your heartfelt post.
I completely agree that at this point, the responsibility has to lie with the breeders. We have the ability to help control this virus pretty easily right now, simply by testing our colonies before we breed and being open and honest about the results. The only thing that makes sense to me is that people should not be breeding Dragons if they are known to be positive, and at this point, it makes no sense to me for people to be breeding and selling without testing. Yes, it costs money to test, but even at $90 a test, its a small price to pay for peace of mind.
While I, like a lot of the "new" people in this market don't understand all the finger pointing or history, we don't have to. The only thing we need to understand is how to protect our dragons.
Personally, I think that all the finger pointing at this point is useless. I'm not sure it matters where it originally came from, but I do think that if there is a virus that is threatening the Beardie population, we as breeders have a responsibility to act to reduce the threat the same way large snake breeders had a responsibility to act years ago when IBD started spreading through that community. The refusal of many breeders to act quickly to help to control that disease has had an enormous influence on that market, as I'm sure many people on this forum can attest too.

 

[pscaulkins]

Personally, I think that all the finger pointing at this point is useless. I'm not sure it matters where it originally came from, but I do think that if there is a virus that is threatening the Beardie population, we as breeders have a responsibility to act to reduce the threat the same way large snake breeders had a responsibility to act years ago when IBD started spreading through that community. The refusal of many breeders to act quickly to help to control that disease has had an enormous influence on that market, as I'm sure many people on this forum can attest too.

I totally agree with you. Let's just learn what we can to stop this horrible virus. We love our babies (not so much babies anymore) and am just learning all we can so we can help them. It's not the dragons fault. Thankfully, I had no plans on breeding. But I do have concerns regarding this virus. There doesn't seem to be much on it.

People are getting defensive, why? The public needs to be educated on it and it needs to be stopped. That is more important than where it began.

 

[pdragon]

Cheri,
once again, Paul had his own line of trans. Those dragons did not thrive very well. Paul may have described his own as being sickly and dying, and I can contest that being I had two of his hets. Kevin wasn't working for sandfire during the time when paul was their represenitave. Paul dissappeared owing a lot of money to the company after those KS posts in 2003. I wouldn't take any information as gold from a guy that conducts business that way. What you are doing is placing adeno where it suits your opinion. Saying that people dump their collections because of adeno, and transluscents must have adeno in the beginning because they didn't thrive very well. Do you realize how unprofessional it is to make statements like that without any proof? Remember your conversation with brandon from DBN? That poor guy had to come out and explain himself of why he got out of dragons and how he didn't do it because of adeno. Remember the whole coccidia ordeal a few years back? Now it's okay for dragons to have coccidia. Maybe you can remember the rise in yellow fungus shortly afterward due to people treating their dragons with albon. Are you really about the dragons, or is it a personal quest to prove yourself, and make youself feel as though you have control over everyone. I'm starting to see a pattern. Tell me cheri, how many people tested positive for coronavirus along with adeno?
Josh

 

[CheriS]

Paula,

I am sorry that you having to deal with more potential problems, at least this answers for you maybe some of the reasons that your dragons kept having problems. There are many innocent victim owners and also the dragons too out there. Hopefully with improved husbandry and keeping stress and other parasites at bay, along with the use of immune builders these dragons have still have full rich lives.

A lot of the newer breeders really did not have any idea they could have potential problems and are shocked when test come back positive and there are some that have dragons that appear healthy and thriving, but are positive. I will keep fingers crossed that yours can get on a better health footing and be as normal as possible and have an average life span, there are some that are doing that and doing it well

 

[Tere Salazar]

Hi,
This is my first post here. I have been following this discussion. I have two sub adult beardies that I tested and both were positive from two different breeders. The reason I am posting is the reaction from one breeder. I asked him to test his breeders when my girl wasn’t thriving. He told me to test so I did and then he demanded to see the results. Well, both were positive. This breeder should have tested when I suspected it. He finally tested a few months later. I feel had he listened and read all the posts he should have tested and it could have saved someone a lot of heart ache. If breeders sell dragons for money, they need to held accountable just like businesses. It’s one thing to sell an adeno positive dragon and not know it but if a buyer says hey my baby is positive than the breeder has the responsibility of testing or the liability falls on them. The attitude from this breeder was really disgusting to me. Had he tested and came to me, I would have tested and that be the end of it. I would have understood.

I think a website or forum that has the symptoms that people can go to that suspect adeno would be a great asset to the beardie communities. I know I would volunteer my experiences and we could all gain knowledge. I think the symptoms are far more widespread than what is published since there is no money in research.

I agree with ravin7678, I think the friends of this breeder is biased. I kept quiet about my problems with Magick’s breeder for the reasons your post on the website got. So sad. My heart went out to you.

I have two wonderful beardies and when they start suffering I will do the right thing by them. I have also decided that I cannot bring another dragon into my home after these two go because I do not know if our whole house is contaminated. This is just so sad for us.

I can’t thank Wendy and all the other breeders for coming forward with this information enough.

This is the third time today that I've tried replying to your post. Hopefully, my computer won't lock up this time.

I, too, am so sorry you're dealing with this. I know how I felt when I heard and saw those test results, and it's not a good feeling. But please know that your dragons will be able to live long, loved lives...despite those results.

I do know there is a lot of information on Cheri's website about the virus. But you are exactly correct. If we all worked together and tried to help each other find our own answers, rather than bickering about the accuracy of the testing and the limited research, we may be able to move forward and stop this virus from spreading any further.

You are also absolutely correct in that it is the responsibility of the breeder to test, prior to breeding or selling. However, whether the breeder claims they have tested or not, buyers need to take the initiative and test themselves, rather than trusting someone else's word.

 

[pscaulkins]

Paula,

I am sorry that you having to deal with more potential problems, at least this answers for you maybe some of the reasons that your dragons kept having problems. There are many innocent victim owners and also the dragons too out there. Hopefully with improved husbandry and keeping stress and other parasites at bay, along with the use of immune builders these dragons have still have full rich lives.

A lot of the newer breeders really did not have any idea they could have potential problems and are shocked when test come back positive and there are some that have dragons that appear healthy and thriving, but are positive. I will keep fingers crossed that yours can get on a better health footing and be as normal as possible and have an average life span, there are some that are doing that and doing it well

Cheri,
First off my name is Sandy. Could you explain better husbandry?? I follow what is recommended to the tee. My problems started when we received Magick. My vet even said so. I would love to improve my husbandry. How? They both have good Mega Ray EB lights. Both are on either shelf lining or pads that get tossed daily. No poo in tanks. Fed healthy feeders that are dusted with Rep Cal CA without phos. or D. Gets salads daily. They have a 12 on 12 off lights. Sleep in bins so I can clean their homes. Are never stressed unless they are not feeling good. Daily bathes. I personally spent tons of time rehabbing Magick and if I remember correctly you thought her tail was infected which it was not. I did nothing differently to get Magick back on track. She was shipped with mbd and her tail was freshly cut. I dipped it in betadine for weeks per the vet. He took a picture of it because he could not believe it when he seen it. If when you read this and something in my husbandry is off please inform me. I have always respected your judgements but this time I think you are off the mark. Oh, I wash their veg in vineager water and rinse like crazy to kill any bacteria. I don't feed them silkies as that was the feeder Magick ate when she got sick and the feeder Semi ate when he stopped eating. No more, I am not going to justify my beardies came to me sick or my husbandry. I take my beardies in for fecals and appointments and have spent thousands in vet bills.

 

[SoulSmilen]

For the record, I didn't take Cheri's post to mean she was questioning your husbandry in particular; I took it as a general, overall statement that with improved husbandry (across the board) adeno positive dragons can and do live healthy lives.

 

[pscaulkins]

I forgot to mention that the Virolyte my vet gave me to try as an immune booster and anti viral has a lot of bad side effects. The worst being it does not dissolve in water and comes in pill form. It was really hard to administer but when I did get it down them it took their appetites away. I couldn't have that.