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One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Also I forgot to ask how many breeders have you lost over the years that you have been breeding

What are there Names if you can remember so others will know check to their animals for Adenovirus :thumbsup:

As the testing is expensive and you may have not wanted to pay for that out of profits...

Others have named the dragons that have it so people could test there animals and see even though they the new owner has to pay for the test

These include new breeders pet owners like myself and hobbiyst

Other breeders have said they closed there Colony to contain or will never sell them and keep ONLY as pets.

Just another HUGE can of Worms I am sure of it :shrug01:
 
You know, I was wondering about something very similar. Why is it that a few who have disputing the testing feel they have the right to get on here and grill those of us who have shared our results, with regard to our husbandry, as well as our test results, but never quite make the point it would appear they are trying to make.

As far as husbandry for my dragons, I am sure you could find mine closely follow those of the best care sheets out there, as I thought I had learned from the best in the business.

I cannot say that I've differed the husbandry I've offered my adult dragon who has Adeno and the parvo like particles, simply because he doesn't have the runs, smelly poo, parasites, or anything else that suggests he requires addititional support at this moment. I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

The babies were a different story. The ones that died came out of the egg struggling, and most never ate from the day they hatched. A few did eat at most 1 or 2 crickets after hatching, then never ate again. I treated those babies exactly as I do all the other babies, mist them 3 times a day and offered them salads and crickets, usually to turn around later and throw the plates away and dispose of the uneaten crickets.
 
I can't understand why all the questioning, either. I myself, couldn't care less where this started or who started it, what I do care about now is that it's here and there are big breeders who think that they shouldn't have to test because it's "their right". It's not your right to knowingly or unknowingly contribute to this virus infected population. Yes, it is the individual's right to not test if they are not going to breed. But if you are going to breed and sell these dragons to the public, then you are obligated to test. You know that this virus is out there (and I don't care how much we know about it or how it's transmitted or what it ends up doing or how many dragons have it or corona or parvo - you know it exists) and therefore you should be morally obligated to test. If you don't want to test, stop breeding...it's real simple.
You are coming from this at a business standpoint, not a keeper who loves their pets and feel cheated and lied to about getting a healthy beardie. You have no right, whatsoever (and this is coming from a consumer), to sell dragons that you don't have a clue if they are infected or not.
I have to agree with Walker.....why all the protests? What are you trying to get around? And why???
 
Here are my results as well. I also show the parvo like virus in 3 dragons.
 

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First off I would like to thank those that are posting their results. The reason why I'm asking about other viruses found in beardeds, is that it is going to be extremely difficult to tell if adeno affects dragons when other factors are involved. Added to the list of factors is: parvovirus, dependo, calci, coccidia, parasites, and stress(husbandry, diet, etc..) Further testing may also result in more viruses. Where does it say that coronavirus doesn't affect beardeds? Once again, it is an opinion not fact. It also would have been nice Cheri to have disclosed this info along with everything else. A few months have gone by, and no word of other viruses involved? I also want to know if dr. jacobson is really aware of what's going on. Does he know his paper has been edited? Does he know other viruses are involved? Does he know that information about his personal life have been posted?
The info about the history of the transluscents is to the best of my knowledge, and experience. If I were to say that I didn't have problems in the beginning, I would be lying, and witholding information. If you look at the dog world, mammals, cats, fish( fancy goldfish, betta's) you can see a major comparison. Ever wonder what the person(s) went through to produce hairless cats and bubble headed oranda's? Think about the color lines of beardeds, and pastels. You think that the first person who started pastels magically hatched an entire clutch of unrelated ones? Josh
 
Vicki, Thank you for your honest response. I think you all that are now questioning Dachiu's stance, should be instead trying to enlist a major breeder into helping solve this problem. I am not taking sides and I was very upset with Sunshine and how he handled his situation. But you have Dachiu that is asking hard questions, looking and questioning data, and is interested in the whole adenovirus situation. Set up a website so all can share and be informed of the lastest data, start raising funds for research. I heard somewhere the figure of $66,000. Take a proactive stance instead of all the finger pointing. How many people have you referred to Beautiful Dragons website for Nutritional Content. I know I have pointed many people. If people have a place to share and learn, without being accused, you might get many larger breeder's to come aboard. I have not owned dragons for 2 years due to health, but I know I would contribute to this cause. The problem will not go away without ALL of the bearded dragon community coming together, not apart.
 
mikey said:
Vicki, Thank you for your honest response. I think you all that are now questioning Dachiu's stance, should be instead trying to enlist a major breeder into helping solve this problem. I am not taking sides and I was very upset with Sunshine and how he handled his situation. But you have Dachiu that is asking hard questions, looking and questioning data, and is interested in the whole adenovirus situation. Set up a website so all can share and be informed of the lastest data, start raising funds for research. I heard somewhere the figure of $66,000. Take a proactive stance instead of all the finger pointing. How many people have you referred to Beautiful Dragons website for Nutritional Content. I know I have pointed many people. If people have a place to share and learn, without being accused, you might get many larger breeder's to come aboard. I have not owned dragons for 2 years due to health, but I know I would contribute to this cause. The problem will not go away without ALL of the bearded dragon community coming together, not apart.
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Agreed.....but she's considered a good size breeder, right? Why isn't she testing? And if she doesn't trust the testing procedures or results, how about not breeding until she does? Just because the 'hard questions' haven't been answered doesn't mean we keep heaping fuel onto the fire. We know it's out there but there is a test for it, so test. Don't want to test, then don't sell them. It's simple.
 
I think right now testing 2-15 adult dragons and offspring is a no brainer. But testing 100+ adults and 1000+ babies, I don't know. I try to put myself in the larger breeder's situation and I am not sure what I would do at this point. There is a huge difference between spending a 1000 dollars and hundred's of thousand's of dollars to test with most data that shows "we do not know at this time." Does a once postive dragon always stay positive? Vicki has stated she has a dragon that tested postive and has now tested negative- multiply times. Why? Having a large breeder to share data is priceless, in my opinion. I think it is a step in the right direction that breeder's put on their website that they are not testing for adenovirus. At least the general public knows they are not testing at this time and can make the decision to test on arrival. I also trust Vicki would not sell outward looking or suspected sick dragon's. I do not trust Bruce at Sunshine would do the same. He knew he was losing top breeder's, from all accounts, and had a huge problem but continued to deny and to sell. That I think is totally wrong. And I think most people can see the difference between the two breeders.
 
If you're correct and there are 100+ adults and 1000+ babies in this stock and it becomes infected, but no tests are run and the babies are sold...where do you think these infected babies will go if they survive? Into the public and that's not right. So, it still boils down to money, right? I'm sure that's the reason Bruce did what he did, for the money, because he certainly didn't do it for the species.
Honestly, I will not put myself into a breeders place and try to empathize with how it would feel to have to fork out the money to have all of their breeders tested....if they are going to sell the offspring of these breeders, then they need to be tested. I'm sure they will make back the money off of the Adeno negative babies, and then some. Besides, this was the chance they took when they started these businesses. It's no longer about them, it's about this species and what the experts are telling them; don't breed and don't sell if they are positive....how do you know if you don't test?
What happens when there are no more non infected beardies in captivity....I'm sorry, I don't want to be known as the generation of keepers that allowed this to happen.
 
Hello

Hello,
I have been following this thread & it boils down to just one question, do we want the species to survive here in the United States? If so, then, we have to be responsible & just TEST!!!! That is what this post is about, not who started what or when really, but the immediate problem that is at hand now.
All I have to say is that it is truly a shame that humans seem to exploit almost any species we get our hands on to use for our gain.
Steve Irwin's land down under is the country where these beautiful creatures inhabited before we brought them over here & ruined them & now that he is gone, we should be ashamed of ourselves in the manner that we have treated them, as I am quite sure he wouldn't be happy about it at all.

That is all I have to say about it. Please just test your dragons, & if you have to cease breeding then so be it, after all, the love & preservation of the species is what matters, correct?

Tracie
 
Does anyone know if testing is being done on dragons that are being exported outside of the US? I would hate to think that we ("we" being US reptile breeders, not me personally as I no longer keep dragons) are supplying other countries with not only different bloodlines, but deadly viruses as well.
 
I dont know if testing is done out of the US. I had the same thoughts. Knowing some breeders who do export, that was a fear of mine as well. I will try to see if I can find out something and will post the answer either way.
I agree whiskersmom and Drache613, All it does it keep passing around the virus to homes of those 1000's of babies. and then those people decide to breed and create more.. Its never ending.
Maybe I am speaking for myself here but I would pay extra if I had proof a baby was adeno negative before buying.. So I would think they could earn their money back.
 
mikey said:
I think right now testing 2-15 adult dragons and offspring is a no brainer. But testing 100+ adults and 1000+ babies, I don't know. I try to put myself in the larger breeder's situation and I am not sure what I would do at this point. There is a huge difference between spending a 1000 dollars and hundred's of thousand's of dollars to test with most data that shows "we do not know at this time." Does a once postive dragon always stay positive? Vicki has stated she has a dragon that tested postive and has now tested negative- multiply times. Why? Having a large breeder to share data is priceless, in my opinion. I think it is a step in the right direction that breeder's put on their website that they are not testing for adenovirus. At least the general public knows they are not testing at this time and can make the decision to test on arrival. I also trust Vicki would not sell outward looking or suspected sick dragon's. I do not trust Bruce at Sunshine would do the same. He knew he was losing top breeder's, from all accounts, and had a huge problem but continued to deny and to sell. That I think is totally wrong. And I think most people can see the difference between the two breeders.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Even at $90 a test, which seems to be the going rate for testing, testing your breeders before they breed seems to be the only sensible option if you don't want to contribute to spreading this disease. We know from Wendy's situation with Clyde that he appeared to be perfectly healthy, yet his contamination spread this disease to hundreds of babies.
The costs for testing for the large breeders is much more easily recouped than it is for us small hobbyists. Lets face facts, the average buyer of a beardie is not going to know about this disease, and purchasing an infected one can absolutely infect a whole colony, so who does the responsibility lie with? The breeders.
We can ignore this, and eventually enough people outside of the serious reptile community will be hurt that the beardie market will be seriously impacted just like the snake community has been by IBD.
I've said it before, none of the history here makes any difference to me. Who brought this in originally doesn't matter, what happened between then and now doesn't really matter. We know now, the time to act is now if we want to get a handle on this.
 
So far I havent found testing for countries outside the US. Maybe Cheri might know if it is available. I have searched for awhile. and Nothing is comming up. :shrug01:
 
Would you totally rely on the breeder's word that they tested? Sure some would be honest, but some would not. Who would you trust? If I were buying any dragons now, I would bring that newly purchased dragon in, do the 3 month isolation, and test myself. So I knew 100% that it was done and done properly. I do believe this is a huge problem that does need attention now. But I also believe your efforts will go nowhere ,at this point, without getting the top breeders, that are producing and distributing 90% of the dragons, onboard. I think educating the buyer is a good first step. Maybe posting educational information on their website and sending testing information with the purchased dragon is a good, first baby step that breeders could do. Then maybe it will be as common for the consumer to test for adenovirus as it is testing for parasites now. If the breeder is unwilling to test their entire colony at this time.

I do think the infighting will bring everyone farther apart and any communication between pet, hobby, and professional breeders will stop on this subject. Everyone does and should have their own views on adenovirus as there is really limited information and no long term studies to prove anything. I think people like Cheri have done the bearded dragon community a great sevice by educating the public on many dragon issues. But to fight and argue will go nowhere and I was very dissappointed today when I went to her site to read the letter that Dr. Jacobson wrote and found a thread started today titled "inbreeding translucent and adenovirus" when as recently as Apr. 2006 she was praising Josh on Kingsnake on how healthy they looked. There can't be new childish threads started to fuel the fire against Josh, Dachiu, or anyone with a differing opinion on adenovirus. Why start when there is a honest,productive thread going right here.
 
perhaps, too, unless there's a problem evident in the babies, it's not necessary for these large-scale breeders to test every single dragon. just all of their breeders. it should follow that if all of their adults are clean, the babies should be too... so it's not 100s of adults and 1000s of babies... it's adults... and babies if there's a problem.

what would be really nice is if we could just get a vaccine. like puppy shots... distemper parvo parainfluenza etc. all in one little dragon-sized needle. *sigh* that'd be the day.

i've been considering breeding my dragons, but absolutely won't do so until they've been tested.

IF people want to continue breeding their adeno positive dragons...that's their decision, really. but it should also be the buyer's decision whether or not they want to purchase a baby from an adeno positive parent. and then it certainly would be easier for us to track.

just my 2 cents.

also, wondering if anyone knows if sandfire's having trouble with adeno right now. i work in a pet store that orders reptiles from sandfire and someone told me we couldn't get babies in until they "stopped dying, and they figured out what was wrong."
 
Its amazing to me. I have read all the articles and have researched all the posts and i have come down to one thing.
It amazes me that a small group of people cant own up to what mess they have created and are now are making excuses about it.
 
JOSH, start with google search engine, put in coronavirus adenovirus bearded dragon, see the Frost thing that comes up, click on it and that has been there since 2004 at least, you can check the waybackmachine to get an exact date. That is on my site for many years now, I am not the one that has kept quiet about anything with adenovirus spreading in the US for the last 4 years. No one is hiding things, changing words or leaving ones out to hide them from you or anyone else. If you have been told that, you are being lied to again... your alledged can of worms is just not there, when we already said something about it years ago and its been there all along. But multiple dragons have only showed adeno, so the spin doctors are shooting blanks there again. The babies were not neglected, not allowed to dehydrate or go hungry, they were mortally sick with adenovirus and nothing else was found.

Info about coronavirus: From Dr Wentz and also from the owner that had the babies positive with that, but no adenovirus and had lost 3 I think. Later the babies tested clear of anything. That is on KS too and I think on BD.org also, I remember she posted it several places and emailed me too. I am sure a search will turn that up also

Paul Yes, England has been testing for 2 years with set up help from US vets. that is on the livefood.co.uk site. Other counties I know that have are the Netherlands, Japan, Italy and Germany. ALL have positive animals, some from the US, some that were bred and raised there, some in rarer morph lines which are often sitting ducks for anything that a suppressed immune system can get into.... Josh post I think is a good insight to why that is happening so easily.

Please just test your dragons, & if you have to cease breeding then so be it, after all, the love & preservation of the species is what matters, correct
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:iagree:

IF people want to continue breeding their adeno positive dragons...that's their decision, really. but it should also be the buyer's decision whether or not they want to purchase a baby from an adeno positive parent. and then it certainly would be easier for us to track.
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:iagree:

But then I am accused of trying to control people by asking the same thing, or having sob storied....maybe someone else will have better luck, but I would not hold my breathe.

GO to this page on Kingsnake, http://forums.kingsnake.com/search/index.php put in the search buffer the word adenovirus and click 2003, 2004, 2005... what is seen and who is saying it... who is NOT?

All this other garbage, is that, garbage, it never happened or I have no idea what someone it trying to imply now. Well. I do have an idea, but it gets old addressing it again and there is better things to spend time on
 
IF people want to continue breeding their adeno positive dragons...that's their decision, really. but it should also be the buyer's decision whether or not they want to purchase a baby from an adeno positive parent. and then it certainly would be easier for us to track
Click to expand...
.

I agree, no one can force anyone to test. The problem as I see it, however, is the question of just how many average buyers are going to even know that there is a problem with Adenovirus, or heck, that Adenovirus even EXISTS? In a perfect world, every buyer would do all the the research on the animal before buying it, but a quick scan of any of the forums will tell you otherwise. If the average Joe Schmoe goes to a couple of the top breeders websites, and those breeders clearly state that they do NOT test for Adeno......what are the odds they will figure, "Gee, if these guys aren't testing for it, it must not be that big of a deal?" It's great that some are being honest and upfront, but just where is that honesty going to get us?

what would be really nice is if we could just get a vaccine. like puppy shots... distemper parvo parainfluenza etc. all in one little dragon-sized needle.
Click to expand...

Yep. And do you know what the "A" in the DA2LPP puppy shot stands for? ADENOVIRUS. There is also a canine vaccination against coronavirus. Obviously, these are different than the versions of the diseases that affect our Dragons, but by working together, maybe.....just MAYBE, someday we COULD have a solution for dragons....who knows. If those who really have the ability and money to push this would team up with the little guy. But as long as there are still those covering up, avoiding the questions, and ignoring the inevitable....we're going to get nowhere.
 
jean

I praise a beautiful unique pattern female dragon that Wendy has too, but it does not alter the fact that many of her other babies/siblings at the same time had Adenovirus, wasted away and died.... one does not equate the other, we and others have said over and over that NOT all die

Do you know how many dragons had to suffer, be sight impaired, crippled, deformed, die young or put down (culled) to get those nice looking ones? How many life's make it worth it to you? I did not know until recently, and then he confirmed it himself on this thread..... If you think that is great and should be applauded still, that is your choice also.. people do have choices and rights, the dragons pay the price for them, to me it is not worth it. That is my opinion and it appears I am far from alone in that.

I think that anyone has to right to know how inbreed animals are, and how those genetics where so affected, which will continue to resurface in generations to come. Again, if you think that should be hide from others, or called childish, that is your choice. I can not apologize to you for feeling disappointed that other are warned and can see it from the breeders themselves. I know it sure has opened a lot of peoples eyes to what some of the problems in this industry is and has been. Most people I know do not come to FC to read the BD forum, or help with the dragons they bought and have problems with.

There was a chat room with about 40 people in it that also discussed the same thing tonight and directed to this thread.... you think that is childish too? Sorry, i do not and never willt think that people should not be informed of something like that.
 
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