puppytoes72 said:
i still stand by my statement:any breeder that choses not to test for adeno and continues to breed and sell are poor excuses for human beings and are just greedy.i am also still curious why dachiu doesnt use uvb.i would say that it is 99.9% proven that beardies NEED UVB.thats all folks
Why don't you call Vicki and ask her, as I am sure she would take time out of her day to talk UVB. UVB lighting has been debated as much as Adeno is now. Do a search (+uvb light) on kingsnake forum archives and do some reading. Where is a stated 99.9% proven?
Tere and others, I am sorry that rumors have started. That is why I dropped out and quit posting on the adeno discussion. The pm's I was getting were quite troublesome to me, someone spreading her own agenda, with no consideration for fact.
I hope Dachiu does not mind but here is a post from 2003 on UVB from them. I also admit I jumped on the bandwagon with Sunshine, without really knowing much. I will not be a part of it ever again.
Well, this was going to be a working vacation anyway… What a way to spend it though; explaining ourselves against such blatant insults. Not just in this post, but many others below. Just because we have a different way of doing things than the "spouted" norm.
Where to start?
The simple fact is that we have not used UVB lighting on our animals for the last 7-8 years. The lights pictured on our site are regular fluorescent bulbs - with a sole purpose of providing light intensity. Please don't jump to such quick conclusions from a picture. One person can see the picture and see 1 thing, another person may see something else entirely.
If we were to jump onto every 'band wagon' - acceptable breeding ages, high intensity UV output lighting, coccidia, pin worms, etc… - our dragons could be problematic, blind, overdosed, or worse.
The link that was posted is definitely a good one for reference on UV lighting. Please keep in mind that it is dealing with a species that is herbivorous though. In addition to the lighting, a proper, well balanced diet and a calcium/D3 supplement is given (NOT just a calcium) supplement - therefore the lighting is not the only factor.
Also note, bearded dragons are not herbivores they are omnivores.
A few other places for more in depth lighting information can be found here -
http://www.naturallighting.com/articles/reptile_lighting_current_perspective.htm - Many of the articles written quote from and reference this source - check it out first hand.
http://my.pclink.com/~dkelley/igcare.htm#lig - and another very well known DVM in the herp fields findings. Oh, and that dietary D3 is also absorbed and utilized.
http://www.angelfire.com/al/repticare/page4.html -
http://www.anapsid.org/mercuryvapor.html - Who thinks more is better?
http://www.repticzone.com/forums/Iguanas/messages/287.html
Guide to a Happy Healthy Pet - The Bearded Dragon by Steve Grenard an avid herpetologist with 30 years of experience states on page 61
"Some experts feel that by feeding beardies a diet rich in both animal and plant nutrients, you can eliminate the need for either sunlight or full spectrum fluorescent substitute. I have found that adult dragons fare well under incandescent light only and do not rely on or need either sunlight or full spectrum lighting if fed a properly supplemented diet. On the other hand, baby beardies kept under this regimen did not grow as fast or as robustly as those receiving either sunlight or artificial full spectrum lighting in spite of their similar diet and supplementation."
This gentleman used incandescent lights in his observations. The pictures shown do not show any fluorescent lighting on the cages. There is a distinct possibility that the light intensity alone (from a fluorescent bulb) could easily be a main factor in growth and activity. Incandescent lights provide very little light intensity. Mr. Grenard goes on to say that he would recommend using a "full-spectrum' bulb.
Also of note - One's health is not measured by growth alone. Animals reared outside generally do not grow as quickly as ones reared indoors (using UVB or not) within a controlled environment. There are many reasons for this, the #1 being heat. Sometimes growing too quickly in a short span of time can be a big health concern - Ask any 'large breed' dog breeder.
Here we had to pull out our prior issues of Reptiles Magazine.
Issue - 2000 Annual. UV or Not - That is the Question. By Lance Rich
Para-phrased.
His findings were - Iguanas exposing themselves to approx. 4 hours in direct sunlight is equal to one laying under one of the best reptile bulbs for 8 hours a day, for 25 days, within 6 inches of the surface of the brand new bulb.
He recommends taking the animals outside for short periods of time and provides UVB lighting.
Most people agree that any animal basking beyond 12 inches from the surface of a full-spectrum fluorescent bulb receives little to no UVB benefits at all. Think of the thousands of people out there that have 55 gallon tanks (or larger), or build their own cages for their animals. A percentage of those people's animals do not get within 12 inches of their lights, depending on the cage layout- Ever. Many of these animals have no problems.
http://www.alysta.com/books/fishtank.htm - How big is your tank?
When we started out keeping dragons as pets years ago, we also followed the methods to use UVB bulbs, supplement with calcium/D3, etc… Over-looking the fact that the bulbs needed to be within 6-8 inches to have any effect on the animals. I think at the time it was 12 inches, so go figure. It depends on what article you read.
We built our own cages. We made them 4 ft wide by 24 inches high back then. We mounted the bulbs to the top on the inside of the cage. Anyway, we reared our animals up and they bred for us, we raised the babies and so it goes. Then we came across an article, probably in Reptiles Magazine, that stated the UVB bulbs had to be within 12 inches to have any UVB benefit to the dragon. That got me thinking… Mind you, we had our dragons a about 2 years by then, had already raised up a handful of babies and never had any signs of MBD... According to this, that can't be possible, right? Our lights are 16- 18 inches away from our animals depending on the size of the individual animal.
Then we did a little test. Nothing fancy. We split a clutch up and supplemented group 1 with just plain calcium and moved the UVB lights 10-12 inches away from the dragons. And for group 2 of hatchlings we used calcium with the vd3 and used regular fluorescent lights. Both groups were dusted one feeding every other day. Guess what? Within a month, some of group 1 that was only getting calcium with the UVB lights started to develop signs of MBD. It started in their digits. Their toes were involuntarily moving, then it progressed to twitching of the legs. When you picked up the dragons you could feel them vibrating in your hand. Group two was ok.
They all grew at about the same rate. There were bigger and smaller ones in each group. I guess we could have moved the lights even closer and tried again... Oh and they were new bulbs and the best marketed at the time.
We still have one of those animals today; a male. The other, unfortunately died this year at 9 years old; a female.
Was this a 'controlled' study? No. But more of a little experiment done by us to appease our own curiosity. Things have advanced since then and we do not close our eyes and ears to the new information that is presented.
We also keep accurate records here and continue to make adjustments and try new things. For instance, just last year we changed all of our breeders' cages and some holdback cages over to Lumi Chrome 1XX. (So to negate the nasty, unfounded implication that we are cheap, try doing the math on both bulbs and fixtures alone! Not to mention the time required for the changes, since the cages themselves needed to be modified.)
The reasoning behind this new experiment was to determine any -
1. Color difference in animals. * The only difference seen is due to the different light spectrum reflected. The animals themselves remain unchanged.
2. Increase in breeding activity. *No difference - Approx. the same as last year.
3. Any effects on productivity of females. *Last year we averaged 72 eggs per female - this year we are running in the high 60's (so far) - based on the same # of animals, but not the exact same animals. Some individuals produced more last year, some more this year.
4. Hardiness of their offspring. *No noticeable difference in hatch rates/and or babies.
5. Allowing the dragons to regulate any dietary shortcomings of the calcium upload. *This is sometimes visible in the eggs produced by females that lay in excess of 100 eggs. Later clutches may not seem as 'white'. Again, no noticeable difference. It could be the individual bloodline, the fact that they lay an excessive amount of eggs, or a combination of both as that many eggs pulls on the reserves of females.
Again, not a "controlled" study - but one that was done for ourselves and the possible benefit of our dragons.
We have answered thousands of phone calls over the years, whether regarding our dragons or not. 90% of the time, the problem rests within the improper diet of the animals. Even with the UVB bulbs, while basking at adequate distances!
In some lines, there are genetic problems.
Just recently one gentleman was using a high output bulb and supplementing with calcium alone. He only had the dragon for 1-2 months, eating like a champ, going great and none of his other dragons had any problems he said. He had those for just weeks. He ran out of calcium/D3 and decided to use the calcium only since he had it already and figured that the bulbs were sufficient because of the supposedly high output of UVB.
After a period of time not receiving D3 supplements, possibly combined with extreme growth in the dragon, the older dragon began displaying signs of MBD.
To make a long story short - after discussing this with him for a while, he changed their diet and started using calcium/D3 again - resulting in the animals returning health.
Point being that in all of the articles we have ever read the fact which cannot be denied is that the animals diet is the #1 factor in the overall health of the animal. Most things, illnesses or whatever, comes back to dietary issues and NOT use or absence of UVB bulbs. As far as dietary calcium/D3 not being utilized, this is not so. This gentleman's experience points this out.
We raise our dragons to varying ages, not just "6 weeks tops". We hold onto many of them for both breeding purposes and to offer a variety of sizes when possible. These dragons get no different care than the ones we offer on our web site or at reptile shows.
We may not offer UVB lighting, but we have seen no visual effects to flag it as being a problem as long as the proper supplementation occurs and there is sufficient light intensity. Of course, if one uses a single incandescent light and the cage is therefore drab or dim, adding any fluorescent fixture (whether UVB or not) will brighten the cage and thus effecting positive behavioral changes in the animal.
Food for thought - Have there been any studies done on long term exposure to low level UV radiation and its effects on either animals or people? Who is to say that by trying to correct one problem, we aren't possibly creating others?
After re-reading our care sheet, we feel it is fine just the way it is. We are not trying to stuff ideas into people's mouths, but stating that there are choices. We are leaving it up to them to make this choice. We can only go on our own experiences and information the others have also provided.
Are UVB lights beneficial to your dragon? Possibly. Are they necessary for your dragon? Nope.
Rob & Vickie
Ps - Blood screen (full panel) is to be drawn next week along with x-rays. X-rays are unacceptable as sole material as they are subjective to the radiologist reading them.
and yes the humidity is low but i put a water dish in there and i added a humidifier in her room so that brings it up to 29-30%.im sure it will be much easier in the summer.i live in CT so my house heat is running constantly which dries things out.i use an acurite digital therm w/hydrometer in her cage but if i use the kitchen one it says 38% so im really not sure which one is correct 
yes,plz keep something "chilled for a celebration" 
)
sherri,you sure are right !!it definately opened my eyes on certain breeders that i USED to respect 
and other breeders that i never heard of but i definately respect them for their willingness to test and their honesty with the results 
