Opinion On Panacur!!

[Golden Gate Geckos]

credit where credit is due

My 'vet' has tried to have me make a $40-50 appointment (which could only further stress the animal) so HE can dose an animal instead of the way ive done it for years . Which is to get a script (if needed) after fecals and give the meds at home . Ok end rant

I'm sorry Dan, but you are full of it. I spent a LOT of time last March advising you on administering the proper doseage and how to determine medication concentrations of Panacur paste because you would not take your newly acquired Mack Snow back to the vet!!! I have saved every single email and private message from you on this subject and I even had to draw you a picture on how to read a 1cc syringe! That doesn't sound like anyone who has 'done it for years' to me... does this illustration I made you look familiar?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

a little calmer now...

I get a little frustrated when veterinary medications are not used properly. Panacur is relatively safe to use IF dosed correctly, but it is only effective on certain types of parasites... certainly not giardia, coccidia, trichomonads, or bacterial infections. Panacur, when not administered properly, can actually be deadly to severely compromised or emacitated geckos, as well as tiny hatchlings!

While I do realize that veterinarians are trying to make a living, many are not trained to treat reptiles and only do it out of interest. Also, vets (like doctors) are subject to malpractice lawsuits and therefore do not feel comfortable prescribing medications without seeing the animal first. Sometimes, all it takes is one vet visit for them to realize that we are sincere about providing the proper care for our herps, and that we don't view them as 'disposable pets', so they will be more willing to do fecals without seeing the animal.

 

[groovygeckos]

Yes , the way ive done it for years ,YEARS AGO is this :

1. take animal to vet to be checked (IF there was something #2 applies)

2. vet prescribed and sent home with meds and the dosage amounts

This means i had no idea of the measurements/dosages/etc but was shown the actual amount to give for each animal and given the meds to continue treatment at home. This was also 10-12 years ago when i was keeping/breeding Chameleons. So yes you were very helpful , but NOW THIS IS THE SECOND TIME YOUR MAKING ASSUMPTIONS AND THROWING YOUR OPINION IN MY FACE !

I do not take healthy appearing animals to the vet , i drop off a fecal .

I did not know the vet needed to see them first to write a script , now i do ,Thanks . I have brought my animals there in the past and am charged premium ,and like i said UNNECESSARILLY

BUT like i said above i was told to then "make an appointment" (40-50 for each animal just to walk in , then meds, charging to actually administer , follow up APPOINTMENTS , MORE FECALS , MORE MEDS) so HE could dose my gecko ONLY FURTHER STRESSING HIM if something was going on .

I do not have an endless amount of funds to waste on a 'quack' of a vets wanting to stress my animal more by taking him from his enclosure , in the winter , to the vet , just to get a dose , then back home etc .Then for repeat visits ?

No thanks !I will drop off fecals ,and dose my own animals , UNLESS an animal is visibly ill . And you were alot of help ! Its really too bad you are AGAIN doing alot more harm to me than helping me !

Im very capable , maybe just not good with math ....ever think ?

So to avoid all of his bull and COMPLETELY UNNEEDED EXPENSE i told him i had the meds .

 

[Xelda]

I agree with Marcia 100% on this. People will give Panacur straight out of the tube to their reptiles without properly diluting it. What they don't realize is that even a tiny drop of undiluted paste can be a thousand times too strong for small reptiles. I don't care how safe Panacur is boasted to be, but a thousand times too much of any "safe" substance is still risky.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

So yes you were very helpful , but NOW THIS IS THE SECOND TIME YOUR MAKING ASSUMPTIONS AND THROWING YOUR OPINION IN MY FACE !

Dan, I don't remember the first time I 'threw my opinion in your face"... sorry! The ASSumptions I made are based on quite a few email and private messages between us last March on this subject. Shall I post all of them?

Its really too bad you are AGAIN doing alot more harm to me than helping me !

Dan, just how am I doing harm to you again? I bent over backwards to help you. BYW, you're welcome.

In the meantime, it isn't necessary to yell at me by posting your responses in all caps... there is nothing wrong with my hearing.

 

[groovygeckos]

Marcia , I appologize . Any idea how frustrating it can be to have someone say things are completely untrue about you ?

You can post whatever you like , I told you the same exact thing i said here .

That I did not know proper dosing etc , or the measurements and im not great with decimals etc. Very simple .

If in the past i was given by a vet the med and a syringe and showed the exact amount to give , does that mean i know how to make a concentration ?

Does this mean i know the amount of a different med to give ?

Does it mean i know what each of those measurements i once measured out are ? Not to mention it has been at least 10 or 12 years since i have had that experience , so there is also memory to think of .

 

[groovygeckos]

You can twist it anyway you like , the fact is still the same .

I was avoiding being overcharged . I felt that bringing the animal in for every dose and every fecal would be outrageous when i can do it myself .

Same reason he wouldnt offer a prescription im guessing is the same reason he would not give me info on using the paste . And you just stated it is for malpractice purposes . So i had the meds , was not interested in being charged and further stressing the animal to bring him in , aside from the cost which was just too much . And I asked you for help .

During the 'drama' you also made this ASSumption that i was just shotgun treating , or wouldnt flip the bill for the vet . That was not the case as much as it was simply NOT NEEDED to stress Juneau ,making repeated trips to the vet , when i could much more easily give him the meds myself .

That is the way i prefer to do it , am i wrong for avoiding unneeded charges , unneeded services , and unneeded stress to my friend ? I dont think so !

 

[coyote]

I don't want to sound negative here, but that Klingenberg book and its accompanying chart is worthless if you're trying to learn how to ID parasites. It's a good introduction to parasites and gives you an idea of how they're spread, but that's about it. It doesn't show you that giardia trophozoites have two nuclei whereas the giardia cysts have four nuclei. It doesn't explain to you how vastly different the same species of parasites can appear in various stages of its life cycle. These are stages you have to learn to visually recognize under a microscope if you're going to rely on yourself to do fecal tests. When you consider the abundance of parasites that infect reptiles--parasites expanding across dozens of phyla--there is a lot more to learn than what you can derive from choppy black and white photos.

This can be fascinating study for those that are interested in identifying particular species and life stages of parasites. But, for purposes of treatment, this much detail is superfluous. Most reptile owners are more interested in the treatment aspect rather than the taxonomy of a parasite or describing its developmental stages.

There are a limited number and type of medications available. Each being effective within a range of parasite family, genera and species. Each medication being appropriate in its own way.

The practical, applicable aspects of recognizing parasitism, dosage, treatment options and regimens is excellently covered in Klingenberg's book. I describe Understanding Reptile Parasites as a great handbook. Not as a parasitology reference.

 

[JBrune]

Wow, sound a little ungrateful there...

To the original point on this thread, shotgun therapy is what you are asking about. Is it right? Who's to say, but we all know it is used and there are risks associated with it. You are the only one who can decide if it is right for you. Vet experience and results are often times more reliable and you have less risks associated with their diagnosis and treatment. My suggestion would be to use the vet. Just look in your area for a vet and call and ask if they do in house fecal without an office call for reptiles.

On a side note, Dan... Wow you really seem defensive and ungrateful in this thread. You state you don't want to be sued for your opinions in your signature line, but you seem real quick to argue with opinions that don't agree with yours. Also you have shown a side of your "opinions" which throw up some red flags should I ever consider buying from you. Are you saying that in your colony of Leo's you do not do any preventative parasite screening? Or are you saying that only if an animal appears sick you would consider taking in a fecal to a vet?

Nevermind you do not need to answer the questions I have already sent my money to Marcia for a beautiful tangerine stripe gecko.

Good Luck,
Joyce

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

There are a limited number and type of medications available. Each being effective within a range of parasite family, genera and species. Each medication being appropriate in its own way.

Precisely!

I do not have an endless amount of funds to waste on a 'quack' of a vets ... he wouldnt offer a prescription im guessing is the same reason he would not give me info on using the paste . And you just stated it is for malpractice purposes . So i had the meds , was not interested in being charged and further stressing the animal to bring him in , aside from the cost which was just too much .

I can understand not wanting to stress your gecko or pay excessive vet bills, Dan. I guess what I still do not understand is why you wouldn't be willing to pay $40-50 to identify what type and treat your $1,000+ gecko for parasites.

 

[groovygeckos]

Ungreatful ?

No I am Thankfull Marcia helped me when i needed help . Its very nice of her to help out ! But what good does it do if she will turn around and post this PRIVATE information on a PUBLIC FORUM ? That is what i am ungrateful for .

Is this every fauna readers business if i bring fecals in and treat my own animals ? No its not . But you know what many breeders use the exact same practice . So why am i 'called out' and someone is acting as if i did something wrong ? Just another attempt to keep me out of the market ?

Are you saying that in your colony of Leo's you do not do any preventative parasite screening?

Nope not what i said .

Or are you saying that only if an animal appears sick you would consider taking in a fecal to a vet?

Nope , im saying if an animal seems very healthy i will not bring it in to a vet . For what purpose ?

I will bring a fecal in for an animal that appears healthy though .

I said only if an animal appears 'off' will it go to the vet .Otherwise ONLY a fecal will be performed .

There is no need to take my healthy animals from their enclosures and to a vet when i can bring a fecal in .

 

[groovygeckos]

Theres the assumption , i DID know what i was treating otherwise i would not have

Marcia , I spent $30 on a fecal to find out there was something going on . Otherwise i would NEVER have treated by myself .

If i dont know whats going on , why would i try to treat it ? What i dont get is why would you think i would be so stupid ? LOL I have receipts here somewhere from fecals AND also from actual visits .

Ya know we werent only talking about panacur which is VERY safe in the correct dosage , but also flagyll which is much more dangerous . I would NOT have just 'hap hazardly' be giving ANY gecko of mine a combination of drugs when i dont even know what is going on FIRST . Panacur i can see 'shotgunning' because it is the safest of the drugs , but i wouldnt even recommend it to anyone . I would advise fecals first just like i did earlier in this thread.

It was paying an additional 40-50 (after the 30 ) just to walk through the door when he needed his next dose(probably not just once ) and then for each fecal after , that really bothered me . Then of course the meds , and to administer them were another added cost .

These are the costs:
Original drop off fecal $30
Visit #1 $40
Fecal #2 $20 IF it is not a 'procedure' to get the sample . If it was it would be $30-40 just for the fecal alone .
Visit #2 $40 + med/dosing (50-60 total )
Another visit ? Not sure but if icant get a fresh sample guess what , $40 +
Meds AGAIN . If i can bring the fecal in they are $30 ea. and would need more than one .

So conservatively the end cost for this one animal would be $ 170

I had between 25-30 animals at the time to have fecal checks on at the time . What would that have cost if he wanted to see each one for at least 'an initial' visit ?

So i treated him and checked out the possibly infected females . What is the problem with this ?

This was just not possible to bring in all of my animals as im sure is the case for MANY others

 

[groovygeckos]

Marcia , you have a fax machine ? tried to take a pic of this receipt and you cant even read it . Ill be glad to fax it to you or anyone else that doubts what i say .

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Is this every fauna readers business if i bring fecals in and treat my own animals ? No its not . But you know what many breeders use the exact same practice . So why am i 'called out' and someone is acting as if i did something wrong ?

Dan, you are the one who has made it every Fauna reader's business by posting your methods of diagnosing and self-treating your geckos on this very thread before I even posted, and I am sorry my response was not in your favor. I 'called you out' because I feel it is extremely important that correct and accurate information be passed on in important threads like this one.

Just another attempt to keep me out of the market ?

What the ??? Dan, you are W-A-A-A-Y out of line with this comment, and I recommend you just stop right now! Do not send me any more email messages on this subject because I simply will not answer them. Just quit before you run yourself out of the market, which almost appears to be your goal!

"Me thinks ye protest too much".

 

[Vince]

1,000 dollar geckos? man people have way to much money. Geckos or Goats its always good to have a qualitified vet do a fecal. However they do somewhat over charge on the meds. At least in my experiances.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Marcia, I think it is great that you have helped so many hobbyist and breeders, I know you have been EXTREMELY helpful to me with any question I have had about any issue and I appluad your continued efforts to get the correct information to newbies, heck to all of us on these important topics.

 

[Vince]

qualified (sp*)

 

[groovygeckos]

Yep thats my right to post that info ,to try to help someone by telling them they should get a fecal done first .

My own methods ? Why they are the same methods of just about everyone else . They are perfectly acceptable to the majority WHEN someone isnt putting thier 'spin' on what they THINK is my reasoning for those methods .

I only posted that I have fecals done , and will treat myself ,normally with the help of a vet . Nothing subpar,underhanded ,unethical ,etc about that at all . I have nothing to hide so i state the fact , that I have fecals done ONLY, unless an animal is sick .

What i post is my business , but for you to come on here and post your ASSumption of what i do or why is just WRONG !

You tell me , what does every breeder on the forum join in and bash someone for then ? Its not right , not respectable , not ethical . Or did you forget you added this same ASSumption to the sixty something page thread ?

You added this , which was leading others to beleive i do not properly care for,diagnose,and treat my animals . Thats called LIBEL , didnt you know ?

Do not post on the forums anything to do with our convos if you do not wish to talk in private about it please button thy lip . What is your purpose bringing this onto the forums ? You can speak with me about this in person and I can fax you proof that you are the one WAYYY out of line here . But of course you cant talk to me in person , you would rather make damaging statements like this on a public forum when you dont even know what you are talking about to begin with ?

Here you are for the second time saying I am treating animals without ANY idea of why im treating them . That i have not had a diagnosis from the vet . Yet I have the receipt as proof staring me in the face at the moment .
You are trying to lead others to beleive that ? If not , then why do it on a public forum ? I Wonder !

A Lawyer would just LOVE that !

 

[Jim O]

Ahhh...the threat of legal action. Usually a clear indication that there is nothing more than hot air behind one's claims.

Do yourself a favor Dan and shut up now before you do even more damage to your own reputation. Your threatening legal action, or even implying a threat of legal action against Marcia makes you look like an ass.

Another word to the wise is that just because you have a "private" conversation with someone, you are not entitled to an expectation that the other party will keep it private. She is allowed to repeat it or summarize it publicly as she sees fit. And she is allowed to form opinions and draw conclusions and state them publicly. That is not libel, even if she is wrong in her conclusions, so long as she can support them. It is libel only if she knowingly presents a falsehood with the intent of causing harm. That brings us to the next legal hurdle, that is once you have established causation (which you never would in this case) you must prove there are damages. Enough has been said on this very site (and likely elsewhere) about this particular gecko and its care that I doubt you could prove either.

So...you have two choices and they are to shut up and stop the hemorrhaging, or keep it up and make it worse for yourself.

 

[JBrune]

Maybe just missing the point...

This is how I read into your thread.

First you did mention go to a vet. I agree with that

Then you toss out a dose concentration in mg/mL. Not real good info, could lead to a misdose for someone.

I can only guess some of this information you gave out caused Marcia to contribute with her thread. And I feel you reacted real defensively as it sounds like Marcia went out of her way to help you.

I have read past threads surrounding you and the parasite topic and recall you complaining about having to pay for an office call at the vet which I feel is hypocritical when you are willing to pay so much money on some of your geckos. If you are willing to do that why not at least represent the idea of being able to pay for vet services.

Then you put out an apology to Marcia in one of the next threads but in the very next one you say she can twist things however she wants. I don't see what's she is twisting. So as I am reading this and shaking my head I was thinking you were being very ungrateful.

Sometimes when I have read some of your posts I think you put yourself out there in ways that you want people to come back at you. Other times I think wow Dan really just wants to share good responsible ideas. I don't get it. But like I said in the last post, my money went to Marcia this year not to you, so I guess what I am ultimately trying to say is be more carefull in how and what you say especially on topics like this.

Sorry but that's just my opinion, so don't sue me.

Joyce