Opinions on spinal curve, please

[Sybella]

I just noticed that one of my females is a little off. Her spine curves slightly down by her hip joint. I'll try and post a picture (IF I can get my dern digital camera to cooperate! LOL!). She wasn't like this before...it's a newly developing defect. I'm assuming, like with scroliosis in people, that it happens as the body grows and is usually brought on by growing too fast. Genetics does play a part in it but according to my kid's pediatrician, growing too fast is the biggest trigger in scroliosis in kids.

Here's my dilema...I didn't see it until AFTER she was exposed to my male and by the time I saw it, she already had eggs forming. I've been trying to decide what to do with her for the last week but the time has come to make a decision. Last night, she laid those eggs and they do look fertile. I don't feel that she should be bred...ever! But, what do I do with the eggs now? I hate to just throw them away...I'd rather incubate them and use them as feeders than just waste them altogether but I'm afraid they'll be too cute to feed away! LOL!!

I'm open to any and all suggestions...what would you do?? Marcia, Kelli, other breeders...? Help!!

 

[Sybella]

This is too funny!! I mentioned that I was having trouble deciding what I wanted to do to oldest child. My daughter, who will be 13 this month, said, "I don't understand Mom...either throw away the eggs or incubate them and feed them to somebody. That's all you can do." It seems that I'm raising a good child who evidently doesn't let her emotions get in the way of the right thing to do. There's nothing like your kid making you feel stupid and proud at the SAME time!! LOL!

Hmm...now I'm thinking. Maybe I should turn this into an educational opportunity. We could cut them open so my kids and I can study and learn about the inside of reptile eggs.

Suggestions, anyone??

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Sybella... you may not like my opinion.

I am quite sure you have been dusting your gecko's food with calcium on a regular basis, and your female is over a year old and at least 45 grams...

If this female is a full-grown adult and just developed this problem, I would have to say it is MBD which would not be passed on to her offspring. Likewise, if she is still 'growing' and developed this, she was too young to be bred, and the production of eggs has depleted her calcium level to the point of developing MBD, when it should have gone to her bone development.

I would be more concerned with the health of the female at this point than the disposition of the eggs and babies if they hatch. I hope you have separated her from the male, and are supplementing her with calcium daily. She could very well produce more eggs, further jeopardizing her her health... and possibly her life. Metabolic Bone Disease can be prevented from progressing with proper heat and supplementation.

 

[robin d.]

i have to agree with marcia, it does sound like MBD from either lack of calcium or like marcia said breeding to early.. i keep a dish of calcium in my leos container at all times.. i also dust crickets (when i feed them i only feed em couple times a month)..... seperate her and offer her a small dish of calcium in her enclosure for her to use at her disposal... make sure her eating need are met ((88-90) and gutload your feeders and supliment her once a week... let us know the results

 

[Sybella]

I don't know how much she weighs but she is indeed still growing. I am very diligent about calcium and all her limbs, etc. are firm, as they should be. I agree that she should NOT have been bred quite yet but my male surprised me when he became active. I thought he was too little! They all got along well so I left mixed sexes together...my bad.

(I know this doesn't make sense, Marcia, as we've had egg discussions before...The female that I talked to you about months ago was shipped to me as "possibly gravid." There were actually 3 girls that I got together, that were all exposed to the guy's male. I didn't have a sexually mature male until recently; a baby I bought late last summer.)

Now, even though I'm an attention to detail person, I really think that I just noticed the defect and that it had always been there. It really isn't that noticeable. I'll try my best to get my camera to behave to get a picture so you can see this...it's different. It's not like MBD where a limb or two gets soft and they start limping. This girl moves normally, just with an odd looking hip/tail base area.

PS. I really need a gram scale...anyone got an extra one?? LOL!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

hmmm...

It's really hard to say what she was subject to before you got her, but I still think it is MBD. This problem is not always characterized by rubbery limbs or a loose jaw... it can and does effect the spine as you described, and can also cause brittle bones that can snap broken with little or no effort. Leaving a bowl of calcium in the enclosure is always a great idea, but keep in mind it is still no guarantee she is using it. Keep her food dusted as well, especially if she is laying eggs.

 

[Sybella]

Ok. This girl was one of 7 leos that I bought in a lot and she was already several months old so yes, you're right, I don't know what she was subject to.

This will be the only year that I let my leos have a free-for-all. I really didn't expect Purple to be so prolific but he's been with all the girls. LOL! After this season is over, my leos be kept so that I have more control. I don't like finding eggs and not knowing which female laid them.

So...that still doesn't help me with the egg dilema. What would you do with these eggs? Do you think I should incubate them? Do you want to see a picture of the mother first?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

about the eggs...

I really can't advise you, but I will tell you what I would do. Since I strongly suspect that the mother has MBD, and considering you have been waiting for eggs, I would go ahead and incubate them. MBD is not a genetic defect, so is cannot be passed on to the offspring. Now, if the mother is very young and does have MBD, it is hard to predict if her health will have an influence on the soundness of the offspring.

Like most animals, male Leopard Geckos mature sexually much faster than females, so never underestimate his ability to produce sperm. A male's age or physical condition has less influence on the quality or production of his sperm than that of a female's eggs since she is the one that bears the young. For example, just because a 12 year old girl starts menstruating, does NOT mean she is physically ready to have a baby. Her own body is not completely developed yet.

I honestly feel that the success of breeding leopard geckos (or most species, for that matter) lies in the health and condition of the mother more than anything else. Too many times people will sacrifice the health of the females because they are too anxious to get eggs and offspring. This will inevitably come back to create more problems in the long run.

 

[Sybella]

Yes, you are very right, Marcia. I really didn't mean to let them breed so quickly. Yes, I've been excited and eager about babies but I had planned to only let my few full size females breed now. I made the mistake of underestimating Purple leaving them in a co-ed colony too long and will NOT do that again! He's half the size of the girls but manages to dominate them.

Back to this problem leo, I finally pulled those eggs from her lay box and just put them in the incubator...but guess what?? When I picked them up, they felt like water balloons. So, it looks like her first pair aren't any good anyway. That solves the problem of wht to do with the babies...for this pair of eggs anyway. I'm going to keep her seperate from now on and hopefully, she doesn't have too much retained sperm, if any.

Regarding calcium, there is always a dish and I sprinkle some on the mealworms twice a week. I only provide crickets once a week (or so) and they drink the Fluker's "water" that is calcium fortified. None of my leos should have any trace of MBD unless there's something else wrong to begin with...something I have no control over.

Here's a little background on me...I had a pair of leos as a teen (20 years ago) but didn't own any for years and years. My first one after this long break, I nearly killed. I still kick myself for it as this girl can barely move. I had totally forgotten about the calcium requirement, didn't provide any and didn't realize what was wrong until it was way too late. Now this girl walks on her elbows; she's completely lame. (I can't believe I'm posting this in a public forum...I'm so embarrassed! This is one of those things that I'd like to forget ever happened but we all screw up sometimes! <sigh>) Consequently, I am quite liberal with the calcium now. I buy every brand of calcium/vitamins I see and alternate them just to make sure they're getting EVERYTHING they need...ok...I'm not quite that bad but almost. You get the picture.

...Off to go fight with my digital camera some more. I still want you to see this girl, Marcia.

 

[Sybella]

Ok, now I feel awful...absolutely awful. My poor little scroliosis girl hasn't been eating right since she deposited those eggs. She's starting to look rather thin. I put her in her own box but she's still not eating. I'm ready to cry.

 

[montezuma]

Other Possibilities

I don't think it is necessarily MBD however, it probably is related to calcium. It could be the reverse. Too much calcium in the diet can be just as bad as too little. If you had an x-ray done a build-up on the spine caused by over calcification would be evident.
Another possibility is that someone "snatching" the gecko up fast or inappropriately when there is a lack of sufficient calcium causing the kink... this is commonly seen in wc monitors.