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Info Outback Reptiles

Josh@Outbackreps said:
I was just notified of this thread, so let clear a little bit of this up before it gets out of hand.

The animal was shipped as a c.h baby nile monitor. It was received and we had no complaints from the buyer until a week later.
Being a baby that is just a few weeks old the animal can quickly dehydrate from a number of factors such as being shipped,stressed, to hot etc.
If it was being kept at a hot spot of 115-120* on what looks to be a bedding of hay the animal can de-hydrate overnight in those conditions.
Nile monitors need higher humidity and do best on a substrate of cypress mulch, or other bark bedding, hay will make it bone dry for them.

I also find it interesting that the original poster posted pics of a horrid looking nile monitor but did not post the other pics of the animal that were in the email they sent to me. As you can see in the pic the tail is a little thin.. being a baby they dehydrate fast and do not have a lot body fat like a savannah would. Other than that the animal is bright eye and plump looking. If it was so bad upon recipe how did it look like this in the pics, and why not post this pic as well.
Not to mention not contacting us until it was to late..
It seems to me that the buyer thought they know more than they do, and kept the animal in less than optimal conditions (on hay with a 120* basking spot) and the animal suffered for it.

I am sorry to see any animal die and hope it will be a learning experience for everyone involved.
Click to expand...

I have been keeping Monitors and Tegus, Caiman, Gators, Torts ect ect for a long time.
1) You are very wrong that grass(hay) can dehydrate the animal over night. There is in fact no way that if that Nile Monitor was sent to the OP in good health that in 7 days it could be in the shape it was in when it died. Regardless of husbandry.
This Monitor in my opinion was sent to the OP in very bad condition. I have kept many Reptiles on hay over the years with no Ill effects.

2) I have seen what people say about Outback Reptiles here on the BOI. Josh, you are a professional con-man and the 100s of negative things that have been said right here on the BOI about you and your company prove that.
I have read threads over and over here on the BOI where you call people lairs, push the blame off on everyone else and never step up and take responsibility for your own actions.

Sad part is you are not even trying to make it right in anyway. I personally would never buy from you.
 
1) You are very wrong that grass(hay) can dehydrate the animal over night. There is in fact no way that if that Nile Monitor was sent to the OP in good health that in 7 days it could be in the shape it was in when it died. Regardless of husbandry.
This Monitor in my opinion was sent to the OP in very bad condition. I have kept many Reptiles on hay over the years with no Ill effects.

Im going to have to agree That no matter what bedding, a monitor cannot dehydrate that quickly overnight. I too have had monitors / Tegus / torts for 4-5 years. Im no expert, but in my opinion for an animal to be in that condition in a weeks time chances are good it was sent in far from perfect condition.
 
I agree, I have kept Nile monitors on hay for long periods of time, and never had them dehydrate like that.
I suspect that monitor was in poor shape when it was shipped out.

Randal Berry
 
Setsuki said:
Matt2979 - I stated in my first post why I didn't contact him right away. I have dealt with this type of business before (although not to this extreme) and know that he will defend himself tooth and nail to make it look like he is not at fault. But like I said before, I am more concerned about the animals in his "care" than anything else.
Click to expand...

Yes you did. I missed it. Guess I was focusing more on the fact that when I get a new animal, I will contact the seller with the tiniest little defect, just in case it does turn into something. (Don't get me wrong; I don't mean if a scale is missing or anything stupid like that.) I was focusing on this because it's how I want people to inspect any animal that I send them.

Didn't mean to push my thoughts onto your thread. Obviously your case is different, as you're not even looking for a refund, but instead warning people of your experience.

Does not sound like a good experience at all.:(
 
I guess this is where I chime in.

Disclaimer: I may have 18 years experience with this species but do not consider nor call myself an 'expert'.

Yes this is a bit of a tough call.

One point being, NO MONITOR regardless of age should be shipped out with a skinny tail especially a young baby.


OP-
What makes this tough is yes you didn't report the condition of the baby upon receipt which yes should have regardless of reasons.

And yes a proper weighted animal has a round tail not a triangle one.

Monitors store ALL their extra body mass and fat in their tails so when that resource is gone then it's rare to save them from passing. BUT ............ yes it's condition can and will deteriorate quickly in a week.
Hay? Seriously? Do you have a rabbit or reptile. Now yes I know you're going to take that as a personal attack but that IS NOT proper husbandry for ANY monitor species especially a baby niloticus. And just because it doesn't look dehydrated doesn't mean the animal isn't. Severe dehydration takes several days to recuperate from not in 5 minutes, 5 hours or even 12 hours.

Keeping an already severely dehydrated animal on hay DOES NOT HELP IT HYDRATE. Hay /straw is used is stables and such to suck up moisture!!! So how would that help?????????????

(I only posted the above because the animals condition over the week is relevant to her claim)

This still DOES NOT excuse the animal from being sent out in poor condition however.

Is that one photo the only photo of the baby you have until it's passing????

The reason I'm asking is that by your photo from the day it was received the babies legs do not look as emaciated as the death photos and neither does the abdomen.

If you knew baby wasn't eating and starving why not attempt a gentle force feed????

I've never seen a baby go from having a seemingly plump legs and belly but a skinny tail die within a week and look completely 100% emaciated.

Again though. The animal should not have been sent out with a skinny tail in the first place and Outback should either refund part of the money, since it wasn't notified the animals condition upon arrival or replace the monitor with a new Nile in PROPER condition. Shipping overnight does not cause the tail to get into that condition.

So what will you do Josh?????
 
Christine,
Yes, lot's of people keep reptiles on hay, tortoises, lizards etc.
It's used in horses stalls mainly for footing and absorb dampness, however lime granules is the preferred choice for dampness and absorbsion in horse stalls.
I have kept monitors in quarantine at the zoo I work at on grass, straw, and even alfalfa hay, without any problems of dehydration at all. With more than 40 years experience with herps, I have never seen a monitor dehydrate like that one in a week or so, and I don't care what you would keep it on, it ain't gonna happen that quickly. That lizard was shipped emanicated.


Randal Berry
 
Where did I say it was shipped in perfect healthy condition???

I didn't. But you cannot me tell that keeping it on hay is correct husbandry and that it helped the animals condition in any way. I was a vet tech specializing in exotics for five years so please don't give me that.

Also look at the legs /feet!!! Drinking a bunch of water and eating a little tiny slurp of egg does not plump up the belly that much to where it's into the animal's chest nor does it plump up the animal's legs and feet.

Yes the animal was shipped in very skinny condition but the difference between the animals condition from when it was received to when it passed appears different. Hence my asking if there were more photos.

In the arrival photo the legs are plump and you don't see the bones in the feet, neck, or spine.
In the deceased animal photo it's a baby monitor that's literally a skeleton with skin on it.
That's what I'm questioning is that progression.

Regardless it's up to Josh to decide how to correct this.
 
TailsWithScales said:
Where did I say it was shipped in perfect healthy condition???
I didn't. But you cannot me tell that keeping it on hay is correct husbandry and that it helped the animals condition in any way. I was a vet tech specializing in exotics for five years so please don't give me that.

Also look at the legs /feet!!! Drinking a bunch of water and eating a little tiny slurp of egg does not plump up the belly that much to where it's into the animal's chest nor does it plump up the animal's legs and feet.

Yes the animal was shipped in very skinny condition but the difference between the animals condition from when it was received to when it passed appears different. Hence my asking if there were more photos.

In the arrival photo the legs are plump and you don't see the bones in the feet, neck, or spine.
In the deceased animal photo it's a baby monitor that's literally a skeleton with skin on it.
That's what I'm questioning is that progression.

Regardless it's up to Josh to decide how to correct this.
Click to expand...

I never said you said that. I said it was shipped emanicated.


Randal Berry
 
TailsWithScales said:
Where did I say it was shipped in perfect healthy condition???

I didn't. But you cannot me tell that keeping it on hay is correct husbandry and that it helped the animals condition in any way. I was a vet tech specializing in exotics for five years so please don't give me that.

Also look at the legs /feet!!! Drinking a bunch of water and eating a little tiny slurp of egg does not plump up the belly that much to where it's into the animal's chest nor does it plump up the animal's legs and feet.

Yes the animal was shipped in very skinny condition but the difference between the animals condition from when it was received to when it passed appears different. Hence my asking if there were more photos.

In the arrival photo the legs are plump and you don't see the bones in the feet, neck, or spine.
In the deceased animal photo it's a baby monitor that's literally a skeleton with skin on it.
That's what I'm questioning is that progression.

Regardless it's up to Josh to decide how to correct this.
Click to expand...

Just an FYI, never once did I say that any of the photos were arrival photos or death photos. This has just been assumed.

So to clarify, the photo of the monitor plump and in it's cage is AFTER it had been in my care for several days vs. the photo I snapped of it after it had passed out in the feeding bin I had placed it in to feed it crickets on the day it arrived.
 
TailsWithScales said:
Where did I say it was shipped in perfect healthy condition???

I didn't. But you cannot me tell that keeping it on hay is correct husbandry and that it helped the animals condition in any way. I was a vet tech specializing in exotics for five years so please don't give me that.



Yes the animal was shipped in very skinny condition but the difference between the animals condition from when it was received to when it passed appears different. Hence my asking if there were more photos.
Click to expand...

Yes, I too see a difference in the Nile Monitor from the 1st photo to the last photo, one week later.
Its called a dead lifeless corpse with no breath in its lungs, not being alert, or possibly defensive and have no muscle, or motor control.
In my opinion that is the only difference you are seeing in the photos.

And in my opinion keeping the animal on dirt or hay is more correct husbandry then keeping the animal on farm milled tree type bedding. That is unless you know of a place in Africa where animals live on mulch from chopped up trees.
But, that is my opinion, just like you not liking hay is your opinion. There is no fact basis to your statement, other then "you" don't like it.

I know your good with Monitors. I have seen you around many forums for years and years. But, I also know you get a lot of flack from people for being pushy and over opinionated.
 
Setsuki said:
The first picture I posted was of the day I got him
Click to expand...

Setsuki said:
So to clarify, the photo of the monitor plump and in it's cage is AFTER it had been in my care for several days vs. the photo I snapped of it after it had passed out in the feeding bin I had placed it in to feed it crickets on the day it arrived.
Click to expand...

:confused:
So which is it???? Was the first photo, the plump photo from the day you got it or after several days of being in your care??????


@BoaENTHUSIAST
I find you're calling me pushy and over opinionated extremely funny since you're the first person to say that since I've been on the forums, which has been since 1999. How odd.
Not to mention it's flat out rude of you. :NoNo:
 
The first picture I posted was of the day I got him, when he was passed out from trying to eat crickets. So unless that hay instantly dehydrated him it's impossible. The state that this monitor was in is absolutely impossible to get to in a week. Especially considering that it was how he came to me.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Setsuki
So to clarify, the photo of the monitor plump and in it's cage is AFTER it had been in my care for several days vs. the photo I snapped of it after it had passed out in the feeding bin I had placed it in to feed it crickets on the day it arrived.
Click to expand...

Am I the only one seeing only one photo of a living monitor here?
 
Is it possible that her pics could be mixed up? I don't know if she named the photo, but if they are still named (example:) DSC0043 DSC0044 etc, its really easy to mix them up.

I'm not defending anyone, just offering a diffrent viewpoint.
 
I think I got it

The first pic if a few days after you had the lizard....fed and watered

the second picture is the day it arrived...passed out in a feeding bin

the 3rd pic its dead

From what I read I think thats right...i think things are just getting slightly mixed up since the pics are a tad out of order.
 
This is the first picture I posted. He LOOKS dead, but was only just passed out after a miserable time trying to eat crickets (and failing miserably). This was shortly after I got him.:

DSCN9441.jpg


This picture was posted by Josh. This was AFTER I had been feeding and tending to the monitor's needs for several days. You can see some egg yolk stuck to his side.

Nile.jpg
 
First, I'm really sorry that the baby didn't make it for you. :(

However, if there is a problem with an animal shipped to you, you should have contact the seller as soon as you noticed the issue. I don't know why this should have even been a discussion. Assuming the worst about the seller is no reason to not contact them if an item purchased isn't received in the condition you expect. There are far too many 'good guy' threads on here for Outback to make the jump to "shady businessman".

Just my two pennies. :shrug01:
 
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