Outback Snakehouse Are Cruel And Inhumane

[merciful]

MARK AND AIMEE ARE REAL HIPOCRITS.WE BOUGHT A SNAKE FROM THEM AND THEY SHIPPED IT AS A PERISHABLE FOOD ITEM!!
WITH NO HEAT , NO LABEL EXCEPT PERISHABLE , NO ROOM TO BREATH AT ALL (HE WAS ALMOST DEAD) , WENT THROUGH A AIRBONE COMPANY THAT DOESN'T EVEN SHIP ANIMALS (SO JUST IMAGINE HOW THE POOR GUY FEELS.
DON'T BELIEVE A WORD THESE PEOPLE TELL YOU , UNLESS YOU WANT TO HAVE SNAKE FOR DINNER.
THIER NAME SHOULD BE ""OUTBACK STEAKHOUSE"

 

[Mark and Aimee]

First - we shipped through Airborne, as we have for quite a few years.

The box did not have any air holes. Snakes do not need air holes in the box. Their oxygen usage is considerably less than that of a lizard or even a mammal. Air holes would have only served as a route for cold air to enter the box.

There was no heat pack. The temperature in Colorado was great, the temperature in Fort Worth, TX was great. A heat pack would have raised the internal temperature of the box high enough to cause serious concern for the animal.

The snake was bagged in a pillow case, tied with a single knot, and taped with duct tape to ensure the snake did not escape.

The snake was then placed in an insulated box, with newspaper filling in the extra space. This keeps the snake from bouncing around.

The box was not labeled "live animal", as we all know Airborne will not knowingly accept live animals. When asked for the contents, perishable food items was the first thing that came to mind. It doesn't matter - they treat all boxes the same.

I am waiting for Deanna and Sam Gibson to provide me with some photos or vet reciepts. They are telling me there is jaw damage and possibly skull damage. The jaw could be distorted slightly. An 8 ft snake pushing at a bag can certainly distort his jaw. This is not a life or death situation, it is something that will right itself in a day or two.

I can't see where we did anything wrong, other than send a snake to an inexperienced keeper who doesn't know much about shipping.

I've already made the offer to right any wrongs... If there was any. All I need is pictures and vet reciepts. To protect myself, I must have these items within 24 hours of reciept.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Mark & Aimee,


One thing, ALL boxes containing any wildlife MUST be clearly labeled as LIve Harmless (animals, Reptiles, etc). IF they are shipped as Perishables only, or other things and not labeled correctly it is a violation of the Lacey act. It does not matter if it is Airborne or whomever, they all must be marked. Also I recently shipped a package through Airborne/DHL to a customer of mine. That package was clearly legally labeled and they shipped it without problem. I normally use UPS, but this customer wanted their package shipped Airborne anc charged to their account. I would suggest not matter what comes out of this situation that you only ship legally marked boxes from here on out as the penalties can be very steep for Lacey Act Violations.

 

[merciful]

MARK AND AIMEE ARE REAL HIPOCRITS.WE BOUGHT A SNAKE FROM THEM AND THEY SHIPPED IT AS A PERISHABLE FOOD ITEM!!
WITH NO HEAT , NO LABEL EXCEPT PERISHABLE , NO ROOM TO BREATH AT ALL (HE WAS ALMOST DEAD) , WENT THROUGH A AIRBONE COMPANY THAT DOESN'T EVEN SHIP ANIMALS (SO JUST IMAGINE HOW THE POOR GUY FEELS.
DON'T BELIEVE A WORD THESE PEOPLE TELL YOU , UNLESS YOU WANT TO HAVE SNAKE FOR DINNER.
THIER NAME SHOULD BE ""OUTBACK STEAKHOUSE"

--through the past 6-7 years we have always had no less than 10 snakes in our "family"!! we treat them better than we treat ourselves most of the time!! we are so attached to our "children" , they have no worries & in no way aggresive!!
would you like to be shipped like that?? i was just very upset when my snake arrived on my door-step about half dead!! i really expected him to be in good condition , but almost dead doesn't work!! we may not no alot about the shipping process , BUT MARK & AIMEE MUST NOT BE EITHER

 

[pitboss]

Proof

You continue to post your opinion of how the snake appears to you and insults toward others. Post some pics of your 'half-dead' snake, the jaw/head, box and all.... Before accusing and insulting others of their shipping methods, maybe you should have inquired how the animal was to be shipped during the purchase, and if you disagreed with the method, you should have made the request for another form of shipping.

Whenever you, as a customer, purchase an animal that requires being shipped, it is, in the very end, the customer's responsibility to verify with the seller ALL details of the transaction. If there's something you don't feel comfortable about, ask for changes..

 

[Mark and Aimee]

WE BOUGHT A SNAKE FROM THEM AND THEY SHIPPED IT AS A PERISHABLE FOOD ITEM!!

I just checked with Aimee, who dropped the package off. Nowhere did anything state it was a perishable food item. This is the interpretation of the reciever.

One thing, ALL boxes containing any wildlife MUST be clearly labeled as LIve Harmless (animals, Reptiles, etc).

Thanks for the info Rob, I'll keep that in mind for future shipments. We are currently in the process of getting approved for FEDEX, so we won't have to "tiptoe" anymore.

would you like to be shipped like that?? i was just very upset when my snake arrived on my door-step about half dead!! i really expected him to be in good condition , but almost dead doesn't work!!

Please, do tell - how would you have shipped the snake differently? What are your EXACT procedures for shipping a snake (if you have ever shipped)?

Half dead? How is the snake half dead? Please post evidence of your claims, or stand down. I have made the offer to right any wrongs. IF substatial proof is provided within 24 hours.

we may not no alot about the shipping process , BUT MARK & AIMEE MUST NOT BE EITHER

I would like to extend an open invitation for ANYONE who has ever had a problem with the way we pack and ship animals, to PLEASE come here and state it NOW. If we don't know how to ship animals, it would certainly show by now, as we have shipped out QUITE a few.

Again, pictures. Vet reciepts. Proof. That's what I am asking for. I'd love to help bring this to a close, but my hands are tied right now.

 

[Mark and Aimee]

Worth adding...

These people (I'm not sure what to call them, I've gotten 3 or 4 different names now) were upset because they had to cut the bag open to get the snake out. They said it was tied too tight. I say it was a successful knot! The purpose of a knot is to keep the bag tied shut. It most certainly did this. Just to make sure, I wrapped the knot with duct tape. Am I the ONLY one who doesn't want snakes escaping from the bag during transit?

I could sit here and tell you about the snakes I have recieved, with the snake roaming a box, and an untied bag somewhere in there. It's a little nerve wracking, to say the least.

I have adviced the reciever in this case to post all correspondence on the Board of Inquiry from here on out. If we're going to resolve this on the internet rather than over the phone of through email, let's do it all the way. I don't want anyone to miss any details.

 

[Dennis Gulla]

Deanna,

Could you please explain to the rest of us how "you" would pack and ship a snake that is 8 feet long.

I am not looking for anything brief, I would prefer if you could list step by step on how you would pack and ship that snake.

Thanks in advance for your discription..

 

[Sybella]

Duct taping the knot is smart. I received snakes with zip ties around the knot too. For the safety of the snake, and anyone else involved, the snake CANNOT escape...it's a must that precautions are taken.

Speaking of escaped snakes...I'll tell you what happened to a snake I received one time.

I was being sent a male corn snake and the person sent it through USPS. (I thought she meant UPS, not USPS, and she didn't know she couldn't ship snakes through the post office at that time.) I knew when it was supposed to be here and it was late so I was getting worried. I called the post office telling them that I had expected a package but it didn't arrive...no one claimed to know anything.

The next day, I got a letter from the postal inspection office saying that it was illegal to ship snakes through the mail. It wasn't until I called the officer on duty and got permission to go retrieve the snake from the SPCA that I found out what happened.

This snake made it from Pennsyvlania, all the way to California and was "intercepted" about a block from my house. The 3-4 ft cornsnake had escaped from his packaging inside the mail truck. When the carrier tried to get more mail out, he saw the snake, panicked, ran back to the post office to call the authorities, refusing to deliver any more mail until the "venomous" snake was removed from his truck. LOL!

I picked up the snake from the shelter and luckily, he seemed ok, despite having no water for 3-4 days. And, finally a week later, I got a call asking me if I wanted the packaging back. I went and picked that up and that snake was in a bag, tied and inside a plastic shoebox, inside a taped box. The only real "problem" was that the knot was loose.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Deanna,

It seems as if this is your first shipping. The description do far is pretty much the standard for safely shipping snakes.

One other thing, could you elaborate on your statement, and I quote:

i was just very upset when my snake arrived on my door-step about half dead!! i really expected him to be in good condition , but almost dead doesn't work!!

What your interpretation of almost dead? Now if there is an injury that's another thing in itself, but you will have to show pictures showing backing your claim.

Kindly.

 

[herpetological]

It appears that the only point is the labeling as Rob mentioned? Can you post the temps coresponding to the shipping time. If they are claiming the snake is half-dead I would assume it is meant to imply cold temps that would affect the specimen. Nothing against you Mark and Amiee just would help your side of the argument LOL's!! As mentioned proof would be a plus. As far as i'm aware Outback has a good reputation.

 

[Stardust]

Is this the same Mark and Amee that let their rescue iguanas free roam in one room, whether male or female?
Anyway, I lived in CO for several years and the weather there with the exception of the mountains really never does have a day the sun doesnt shine. I am not sure if it is warm enough to ship without heat packs though.
As far as the knot and the tape, kudo's to them!!! It is good to see a well packaged well knotted snake bag come in.

 

[sputnik]

MARK AND AIMEE

I have known Mark and Aimee for several years now. I do know and have seen how they pack and ship animals - and it's a very nice job that they do.

i was just very upset when my snake arrived on my door-step about half dead!! i really expected him to be in good condition , but almost dead doesn't work!!

Having seen Mark and Aimee's collection on many occassions, including this last weekend that went by... I can fully state there is NOT one animal in poor condition. Deanna's comments are vague at the least. More insulting is a better way to describe it.

we may not no alot about the shipping process , BUT MARK & AIMEE MUST NOT BE EITHER

I think the above comment sums up Deanna's inexperience and eagerness to criticize.

I just find it hard to believe these stories people come up with when you (Deanna) jump on here and in one small paragraph launch a barage of hostile critical remarks, insults and suggestive comments without one single shred of proof.

Having NOT seen any proof about any of Deanna's allegations and also seeing Mark has offered to right any wrongs (If there is any and I doubt it) - I would not think that Mark and Aimee owe you anything. More like you owe them an appology for the way you've tried to trash their EXCELLANT reputation and for the way you've treated them.

 

[Mark and Aimee]

Can you post the temps coresponding to the shipping time.

It was above 60 F at both locations. Exact temperatures... I'm not sure where to retrieve them! I based the no heat pack decision on the last shipment I sent to a southern state - the reciever told me when the package arrived, the internal temps were right around 100 degrees.

This is just a personal technique, but when I ship a larger snake, I generally cool them for a few days at home before shipping them. This way, there is less shock to them when they are subject to slightly cooler than normal temperatures overnight.

Is this the same Mark and Amee that let their rescue iguanas free roam in one room, whether male or female?

I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand, but yes, that would be us. At one time (while I was actively involved with Colorado Reptile Humane Society), we had anywhere from 30-40 adult Green Iguanas free roaming in one room.

Iguanas take a massive amount of space, and setting up individual cages was not practical. The way we chose to free roam the igs was a bit of an educated guess... It took a good balance of males to females. The males generally had a group of females they would defend. If the chemistry of the room was tipped off balance by the introduction of a new male, we isolated that male to a different room until things calmed down again.

This setting worked great - we heated the entire room to 80 degrees and provided basking areas and UV with mercury vapor bulbs.

If I ever get back into the iguana rescue world, I'll do it exactly the same. Only with NOTHING else in the room (no snake cages).

Anyway, I lived in CO for several years and the weather there with the exception of the mountains really never does have a day the sun doesnt shine. I am not sure if it is warm enough to ship without heat packs though.

Colorado is a large state that changes drastically as you travel. Denver can be 40 degrees, while Colorado Springs is 60, and Pueblo is 80. They're all right on I-25, and about 90 miles apart total. As I stated, the temperature when we shipped was right around 60 degrees.

At what point would you deem heat packs necessary, or unnecessary? I made a judgement call, and so far it doesn't seem like it was a bad one. There was no mention of the snake being cold. Only unsubstantiated claims of the snake being "half dead". Which half was that?

 

[craig kade]

Sounds like a good packing job to me, I would not send heat packs with 60 degree temps either. You start to run more of a risk of overheating than underheating at that point.

 

[Copperheadman]

When I'm out in the field,I ALWAYS duct tape the knots on the bags.The last thing I want is the Timber/Copperhead/Ratsnake I'm transporting to get loose in my vehicle.Sounds like a successful packing job on Mark and Aimee's part.

 

[epidemic]

I concur

It sounds as though you packaged the snake in a reasonable manner, and as has been mentioned before, the only descrepencey was the labeling. However, there was quite a long post on this not so long ago and the majority of people secretly slip specimens by.
As for heat packs, I believe it is well documented, and accepted that heat can create more detrimental health issues then cold.
If the temperature is above 50F from the point of origin and the same, or greater at the destination, I definitely would NOT utilize heat packs, as they can reach temps of 150 plus F. Few species will survive that type of heat within an insulated environment.
I believe you will find that most experienced breeders and dealers will agree that your packaging sounds acceptable.
As far as a tight knot on the bag and the use of duct tape. That's exactly how I do it. I think everyone who has been shipping and receiving reptiles long enough has experienced the occasional snake lose in the box. Better to have to cut a bag, then risk losing a specimen in that manner.
anyhow, the individual posting this thread are obviously new to obtaining specimens through the mail. Perhaps they will consider using Delta Dash or US Airways PDQ for all of their future shipments.

Best of luck,

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
[email protected]
501.526.4856

 

[Stephen Barger]

I see nothing wrong with this. When I used to ship (2002), I packaged my animals almost indentically. The only difference was I used 2+ electric ties to secure the bag (after I tied the knot).

I concure, that using heat packs with 60+degrees.

I have on occassion used 'hot hands' when shipping in above 50-55degree weather, as they will keep the box warm at night, and they will die out during the early am hours.. therefore avoiding overheating. Just a thought. I did that many times, and never once had a problem with it.

Otherwise, sounds like you did a great job Mark.. I would disregaurd this complaint as a person who can't be made happy.. and probably has little or no experience w/ shipping.

P.S.. Lacey Act aside, I, and MANY herpers have shipped animals via airborne, ups, and fedex without marking the boxes live harmless reptiles. I eventually (once again 2002) got permission from Airborne to ship herps, and stopped mis marking boxes. But Marking as perishable, food, etc.. is not , and was not uncommon.

Take it easy

Stephen

 

[Darin Chappell]

Mark,

On page two, you wrote, "I just checked with Aimee, who dropped the package off. Nowhere did anything state it was a perishable food item. This is the interpretation of the reciever."

However, to be fair, one of you wrote on page one, "The box was not labeled "live animal", as we all know Airborne will not knowingly accept live animals. When asked for the contents, perishable food items was the first thing that came to mind. It doesn't matter - they treat all boxes the same."

It seemed as if that post on page one, the first response to the complaint on the BOI, was written by Aimee, but that may be my misconception entirely. Quite frankly, that's one of the hazzards of having a husband and wife team with one fauna account. When there is not a specified "signature" on the post, no one can know from whom it is being posted. That's not normally a problem from either of you two, but in this case it causes some confusion to me.

Could you all clear up who wrote what, and how the first quotation jives with the second? Thanks in advance!

 

[Pennebaker]

I will agree with what seems like the majority as well.

We have to remember that before 2 weeks ago, the only option for shipping snakes and labeling the box was through the airlines. Most dealers/breeders have been shipping through UPS, fedex, or airborne for years without labeling since most customers are not willing to pay $75 and drive to the airport for delta. Right or wrong.

This sounds like standard packing procedures for a snake. The boxes are often labeled "perishable" and a snake bag secured tightly is a good idea. No airholes is fine--especially if no heat pack was used.

It can be a tough call when it comes to heat packs in mild weather. 60 is one of those borderline temps where it can get too hot for a snake if heat packs are included. As for appearing "half dead", I would imagine that since no heat packs were used, the snake was a little cool and they tend to take about 30 minutes to heat up and become active. Perhaps you were mistaking that behavior for illness?

Although I have never done business directly with Outback Snakehouse, I have only heard positive feedback. As for their care of animals, Mark and Aimee sent me a photo recently of a bearded dragon (bred by us, bought by them through a 3rd party)...this dragon was extremely large for his age and looked VERY well cared for--easy to tell with a dragon. So nice and healthy, in fact, that his photo is up on our website as an example.
I would not hesitate to buy from them.

Hope this helps. It sounds like they are willing to work with you as an unsatisfied customer as well--I'm not sure what you are looking for, but calling them "cruel and inhumane" is not very nice or applicable in this situation.


Dana