Paid subscription plan?

[WebSlave]

Is anyone still participating in this forum I set up?

Anyway, I am seriously considering setting up a paid subscription plan sometime in the future. I have about had my fill of people who I have suspended who simply register as someone else and are right back on within the hour. I have said time and time again that some sort of paid membership is the only way to control this sort of thing, but have felt that it just wouldn't fly with most people. Maybe the "no fly" still applies, but I'm at the point where I don't think I really care.

But I'm not sure how to implement it.

The fee would be modest, like somewhere between $10 and $35 per year. Which puts it more in the class of a "forced" donation, rather than a real burdensome fee for this site.

What do you get for this fee? Well, that's what I am not sure about. At the very least, the ability to post on the BOI, maybe posting ads as well, and perhaps a few other perks I can come up with.

I am thinking about coming up with a "BOI Lite" that would be limited to only ME being able to create a new thread, so I could make sure there are no duplicates as takes place on the BOI all of the time. Another difference would be that it would be composed SOLELY of a poll for each person or business:

• Excellent
• Very Good
• Good
• OK
• Poor
• Very Poor
• Extremely bad

In the new version of this software, I have an option to force the polls to display the member names of who votes in the polls. Which eliminated the abuse that could take place via anonymous voting. Obviously I would ONLY want people who were basically verified via a paid subscription plan to participate in something like this. I believe the new system will also provide keyword links to other threads automatically as well, which more than likely will point to associated links with the actual BOI.

Plus, I will be honest, I'm getting tired of the time and effort (not to mention the cost involved) of doing this virtually for free. Yeah, the banner ads help, but I am still a long way from being in the black on this site. This has either got to start giving me some return, or I really need to be thinking about how better to spend my time. Between the hate mail and people who can't remember their passwords, this is getting to be more then just a passing fancy.

So I am running this by anyone who happens to stumble upon this thread in this forum for some feedback.

I guess I need to post a poll as well, so I can get some eyeball feedback about this plan in general.

No, this is not set in stone, but I think something has to give here. I'm just not sure what to do about it, though.

Thanks.

 

[Reptile Locators]

Rich Good Ideal! But!

Rich i think you have a good ideal But i think it has to be one way or the other. a paid fee to use it or just be free and keep going the way it is going.

Having a paid site will be a plus for you and for good honest people in the herp community. a 35.00 paid fee to be able to post on the BOI and to post for sale ads will stop some of the unnessary garbage that goes on with the site in some instances

Now this is just my opinion

You could have a paid site which would stop some of the regersting under other names by the same people and make it to where they must have some proof of them being who they say they are. making it feasable to where it works for you and who would be in control of this prosses.

As for the BOI

It might be helpful for it to be part of the paid site
which allows those who have a legit problems to settle
but in regards to that not all will be paying members that will want to put their 2 cents in on it. so it could be done by the use of a poll type good.... bad...very bad... excelent. excetra. or they can provide they have something provable info that needs to be said within the said thread to beable to post in it .and they regerster like a guest but must prove they are who they say they are as well make it manditory for their proper info IE real name state only e-mail addys are legit Ect. a full profile filled out.

Not sure how to do something like this but one thing is for sure
The BOI does work but also has some problems that do need to be addressed with the way it is abused by people that just want to creat flame wars. of corse their must be MOD's and others you choose to keep it and determin what is exceptable and what is just someone prowling just to hear their self and keep something going just for their own kicks.

I dont know what the real fix would be for the site
but a paid site is one way for you to help your self with the financial part of improving it. IE upgrades softweare Excetra what ever the need be and make it worth your time to have to make some changes.

Althoe i do think that the real problem lays with people in general
most have just for got ethics and the ability to use common sence
and just plain good judgement.

But it is really up to you to determin what is best for you and the site. I for one am not opposed to paying a 35.00 fee for the use of the site.

Rich...........IMO.....You are on the right track!
Either way we will all have to adapt to what ever your choice be.

Have a great Holiday season!

 

[Clay Davenport]

I think a paid membership to the site is a good idea, and expected considering the size the site has grown.
I personally would pay $35 a year, but in the poll I wen't with the $10 choice because I honestly think there would be a huge percentage of users that would not go for the $35 fee.
Another option of course would be a two tiered approach with a $10 membership providing access to the BOI and the next level, $25, $35 whatever, adding the ability to post classifieds.
It would seem fair that if the poster were gaining some income from the site, he could be expected to pay a little higher fee than the casual user.

There's currently over 14,000 registered users of the site. The question is how many of those will be willing to pay $10 to use it? If 5% were willing it would be over 7 grand in revenue annually.
It's the smart move really. I can honestly say I wouldn't have the paitence or inclination to run all this for free, let alone do it at a loss.

 

[NEWReptiles]

I just worry that the majority of folks will leave and the BOI will lose its effectiveness with less people.

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, that is certainly a concern. But I think we are reaching the point where unless some tighter controls are placed on verification of people posting on the BOI, the same thing might happen anyway. Right now, anyone can set up a hotmail account and register anew on this site and be able to post on the BOI. So the penalty of suspension and fine does not have a very effective bite to it. Sure anyone can set up a PayPal account as well. But paying a fee every time they sign up under a new false name could get real old in a hurry, I think.

Of course there are a lot more questions that need answers before I can seriously consider implementing something like this.

What is to keep the trolls from posting their garbage in other forums, making the workload increase substantially for myself and the mods?

How do I "look the mods in the eye" asking them to volunteer their time and efforts here when I am pulling in some money off of this site?

Will topics that SHOULD be posted in the BOI then start cropping up everywhere else instead, simply because the people posting don't want to pay that fee in order to do so?

Just how many valuable posts will that fee keep from being posted on the BOI?

What other perks could I offer for that fee to make it more attractive to people?

Should I reduce some of the freebies and make them part of the package for the subscription plan? Or will that piss people off?

No matter what I do, I am certain I am going to piss off someone. I guess the decision I need to make is whether it is time to stop worrying about that, and look more into the future to do what is best for the long term. Sooner or later this site is going to outgrow it's current server's capabilities. That could start to get REAL expensive. So do I start planning for that, financially, now? I've been trying everything I can think of to avoid charging members an admission fee, but is it going to be enough?

And what do I do when the time involvement here takes away from the business that actually pays my living expenses? (Which certainly IS taking place somewhat even now) Do I allow this site to run away with my life? For free?

Yeah, this is a tough one. Something that I have seen coming for a long time but keep on turning a blind eye to it. But I can't help but think I am being stupid about it. Maybe if this site was pulling in more money, there could be so much more that I could do here. Maybe I wouldn't feel so foolish about spending as much time and effort as I do here if this site were helping the pocketbook more.

Heck, I just don't know.....

 

[WebSlave]

Oh yeah, one other thing.

I think it is about time to move this thread into the BOI for more general exposure. Putting this in the Steering Committee forum probably is not giving me a balanced view of what most people will generally think about this idea.

I wanted to get a little bit of feedback first, just to make sure I wasn't competely touched in the head by even thinking about this.

Thanks.

 

[NEWReptiles]

Would making the fee a one time $10 start-up fee be better?

As far as BS popping up in other ares, I see it like this, if your gonna make folks pay, then keep that way across the board. The $$ fee will apply to ANY/ALL visitors on any part of this site. I didn't even get that typed out and I already see a problem with pay for any access. It would be a bummer to charge anything for the discussion forums where people are supposed to gain valuble info on the animals they keep......

The more I try to think of a good way to do it, the more my head hurts.

And about the mods keeping an eye on everything for free, that wouldn't be a problem at all. There are tons of great people that come here and would be glad to help out.

Just how many valuable posts will that fee keep from being posted on the BOI?

Another huge concern to me. I feel most people would not want to spend money to publicly post thier good OR bad feelings.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I can see both sides of it for what it's worth... On the one hand there's a lot of time, money and energy going into maintaining the site without any real distinct benefit (For Rich).

On the other hand if you charge a fee... Well, the BOI works the way it does because people can freely post their positive and negative experiences. If you start charging people to report their perspective or read the experiences of others, then there may be a lot of bad guys who suddenly find that their customer base is largely ignorant and ripe for the picking and I daresay a lot of good guys who might miss out on a quality start because they don't get the public recognition for their positive deals.

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, Seamus, I see this aspect of it. But on the other hand, shouldn't those same people recognize the value of the BOI and shouldn't such value be worth something to them? Would it be worth $10 a year to keep from making a mistake that could cost them MUCH more? As for the good guys getting recognition, what is the advertising of having their name displayed as a good guy on the BOI worth to them? How many sales could be harvested from the people doing a search for them on the BOI and coming up with positive remarks that will encourage the prospective customer to go ahead with the purchase? How many people actually see a three entitled "Joe Blow's Bargain Basement Boas - GOOD GUY!" when it is posted on the BOI? It's likely not so much that someone would pay $10 to be able to post something like that, but maybe well worth it if they were the one looking to do business with Joe Blow.

I don't know, maybe I'm not looking at this deep enough. Should the subscription fee encompass the right to even read the BOI? Aren't the readers actually being the people who are mostly benefiting from the information posted there? And then, of course, there is the other faction of people who feel the BOI is only worth the entertainment it brings to them. Well, is that entertainment worth the cost of a bargain basement DVD?

Basically, has the BOI earned the right to be worth something to people? When do I deserve the right to be compensated for all of the BS I have had to put up with because of this site over the last few years? I didn't set this up with this sort of thing in mind, but in reality I never dreamed it would reach the point that it has now, either. If when I started it at point A (when I first got the harebrained idea of the BOI), I had known what I would have to go through to get to point B (now), I certainly would not have done it. But I am here now, so might as well try to make the best of it. I certainly have not made a lot of friends because of this venture. Just as certainly there are quite a number of people who do not think of me in a flattering light because of it. So what has this all REALLY cost me? Can any of that REALLY be recovered?

But yes, I do recognize the danger. People in general just prefer things that are free. Some even demand it, and won't accept anything else but. My questions revolve around the issue of whether or not I have reached the point where I am willing to sacrifice this site to find out what this is all really worth to most people. When is it time for me to stop being the one doing most of the giving?

Maybe it would be just another lesson in a long string of lessons in my education about reality and the people who live in it. Maybe the lesson learned about what will happen is worth the risk of doing it. To be perfectly honest, I am very pessimistic about what I expect the outcome to be.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I didn't intend in any way to detract from what you've put in and continue to put into this site... I'm simply taking a guess, perhaps based in my own tendency towards pessimism and I'm going to say that someone who just got ripped off isn't inclined to pay ten dollars to tell other people about it. Similarly, someone who just got a great deal may not see a reason to spend their money to essentially advertise for the person they successfully dealt with.

Yes, many MANY of the posts in numerous forums are by a kind of core group of users, but out of the 14K plus that you have right now... how many have only posted a few times? The BOI works because it has the registered users reading it every day, if it was only avaliable by subscription it would have a fraction of the users... therefor a fraction of the value TO users, which isn't really going to generate repeat subscribers or new users, so the income might dwindle and die within a year or two anyway.

However with that being said... Rich, you've provided something that nobody else ever has at great personal cost and without asking for anything in return. If you're getting burnt out and the problems and stress are becoming more than you want to or are capable of dealing with... Just stop. You may be the sole provider for something which really is needed but that doesn't obligate you to keep doing it when it's killing you with stress and financial burden and nobody could fault you if things needed to end. I don't want to see Fauna go (obviously) but I'd almost rather see the domain (and user list and archived threads) up for sale or just stopped entirely than watch it die slowly because people (probably myself included although I haven't voted yet) are too cheap to pay for what they'll willingly and even greedily use for free.

 

[WebSlave]

Seamus, do you really think someone would want to buy this site just to offer it for free to everyone? Why in the world would someone do that? No, anyone who would spend the money for this site would be doing so with a return on their investment in mind.

Heck, if I were to have in mind just abandoning this, then why not go ahead and try the subscription thing beforehand anyway? What would I have to lose?

Truth of the matter is that I would far rather be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror and say that this site failed because it apparently was just not worth it to everyone then to say that I just quit. I can accept failing, but not just quitting.

BTW, I do agree with you. And as I said, I think people will likely abandon it in favor of something, no ANYTHING, that they could get for free instead. And once the other free resource gets to where I am now, they will face the same problem. Sure, I guess the herd of viewers could eternally jump from one free site to another. And maybe that is what the future has in store. But how many times will that happen before people will just quit posting in all of the many string of BOIs, realizing that it is all wasted effort when the site they posted their stories on just went and died like all of the rest of them? And how many other people will pick up the yoke of something like this with the mines of threatened lawsuits laying all around them besides all of the rest of the BS in store for them?

Yeah, maybe someone else could pick this up and run with it, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that actually happening. Not that I am anything special, but probably not too many people have my level of ultra heavy duty hard headedness.

 

[KelliH]

I would certainly pay $35 yearly to be able to use this site. I also think that a two tierred system would work well. $10 for BOI access, $25 more for the ability to post ads, or something similar. Yes we will lose some members, but in the long run charging a fee will be well worth the loss of a few members. It will pay the costs of running the site, help Rich get back some of his investment to the site and also hopefully enable more improvements to be made here and there as needed. Change is usually not easy, but mostly we get used to it. My vote is YES, start charging.

 

[Reptile Locators]

But yes, I do recognize the danger. People in general just prefer things that are free. Some even demand it, and won't accept anything else but. My questions revolve around the issue of whether or not I have reached the point where I am willing to sacrifice this site to find out what this is all really worth to most people. When is it time for me to stop being the one doing most of the giving?

Well i think you are at the point now or you would not be here asking.
Free? lots of people prefer something for free but if the situation for a BOI post is important enough for a person to place one and they feel strongly enough they will not mind a paid fee too use the site that is what level headed people will do weather it is a inquiry post or a bad guy post/good guy post and to post forsale ad's.

The information boards should remain free viewing?
Being lots of people do use them for searching out useful infomation about animals and most informational sites are free based.

But not all free informational sites are that informational and the plus side of fauna is the informational discussion foarms. it is that informational people that are their and having hands on experince shearing ideals with each other
now would that worth something to everyone!

Example: my wife does not post but maybe once in a while but yet she would pay the fee just because she is a reader and uses it for that! useful information when she or the kids need to research an animal for school plus not only can researching be done but questions can be asked and answered.
worth something?? i think so!

But yet how many freebees do you want to give with a paid subscription
i'm sure you will be able to decide that once you make the decision
in which way you go with this.

for all anyone knows it my just boost the site and bring more serious enthusiast to the site in the near future but only time will tell.

Moving this thread in to the BOI just might be the place for this
it will get much more attention and responces might be somewhat useful to determin which way you go!

Anyway just my 2 cents!

 

[Clay Davenport]

The problem is it's currently a free site for the users, but Rich is not actually offering a free service entirely, it's costing him money. It would be difficult enough for me, alright most likely impossible, to offer a site like this with no return for the headaches, but to actually have to pay out of pocket year after year so everyone can give me those headaches would never happen. I'd lose paitence in about two weeks.

There is always the option of doing a trial run at first where you only charge for the use of the classifieds. That is a logical and expected charge, since the users of that area will be gaining income themselves from that fee. What if you charged $35 per year for the use of the classifieds. I don't know what figure you're hoping to get but if only 200 of the 14000 registered users paid for that, that's 7 grand revenue for the year and the BOI would be unaffected. The free availability of the BOI and the forums would ensure the traffic remained high on the site, which would keep the traffic there to browse the classifieds keeping the fee justified.
One sale of most any snake would recoup the classified fee for the year, so the sellers should really have no problem with it. Those who don't sell anything and won't be gaining any income from the site would still have the use of everything as they normally would.

It really wouldn't make any difference where the revenue came from as long as it did, and if the worry is killing the BOI with a use fee, then give it an initial try with leaving it out of the equation. Can't hurt anything really, and if anyone is remotely honest about it they can't really argue paying for advertising privledges that will result in making them money. Classified ads are worth more sales than banners any day I'd say.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I'm all in favor for the fee. I also like the idea of spliting it in two, BOI and ads. If there was a simple way to charge per post that could be even better. Rich, I remember you telling me once that it was very bery hard and costly to implement. But I would like a system where people pay $10, and that would allow them let's say for example 100 posts (a dime a post). When they reach the 100 post milestone they will automatically get suspended until they renew their suscription. This would contemplate those that use it sporadically, and would "tax" those that are in here more often. On second thought, I might go broke.

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, Alvaro, but I don't know how to implement something like that, much less make it an easy pill to swallow. A message board survives because people post messages on it. To basically tell people it will cost them money for each post they make seems to be contrary to common sense.

Even this whole idea about charging a fee is sticking in my throat when I try to justify it. Yeah, I would like to make some money off of this thing, after all the work I have put into it, but it somehow just feels "dirty" even thinking of it that way. But it just sounds hollow to say "yeah, you should all pay to be here because it is in your best interests to do so." This really all started fermenting when trying to come up with an idea on how to keep the trolls from coming back after being suspended from the site. Generally, if you charge them money for each registration, then I would logically think that they won't be willing to do that. But how do you do it in such a way so that everyone doesn't have to pay? I don't think you can, so I just wind up chasing my tail trying to come up with ideas. If the fee is small enough, then perhaps most people won't mind so much since it would be a once a year thing. But the trolls, well they might be looking at 3 to 5 times that amount if they want to re-register as someone else.

So should it be a one-time charge and not yearly? Would that work better? Maybe be easier to swallow and perhaps accomplish the same thing?

As for charging for classifieds, heck, that seems self defeating to me, since part of the building process for this site is the classifieds section. But how inclined will people be to do so if they have to pay for it? How many people are really making money off of their ads here? I recently implemented that highlighted ad function in the hopes that this would prove to be successful and help bring in some money. For only $1 for each ad for a month, I felt that it was way low enough that enough people would be interested in using it.

Let's face it, this site is basically built around the BOI. It is the flagship and the reason most people come here. Charging anything for the side shows would likely only get them strangled off from lack of use. Part of my thought processes are geared towards trying to get people to go to other parts of this site a little bit more. So maybe charging for access to the BOI, with the main intent on trying to cut back the false registrations for frivolous posts would help to chase people over to the other sections. Maybe. Or it could just chase them out the door altogether.

On even numbered days, I just want to try to do what is best to make this the best site out there and just make this usefull to everyone, no matter what the personal cost. Then on odd numbered days I think to hell with it, it's really not worth worrying about, so just tell people the free ride is over, pay up or hit the road, and see what happens. Worst that could happen is that this monkey would be off of my back.

We have almost 15,000 registered members here. But on any given day, we only get about 1,100 of those members to visit here. Why aren't more of those members visiting here more often? Is it different people mostly visiting every day, where over months nearly all will come through here sooner or later, or is it the same 1,100 members that come here day in and day out?

FaunaTopSites shows roughly 6,000 to 7,000 unique IP addresses visiting here every day. Why are there that many unregistered guests or unlogged in members visiting?

It's really hard trying to figure out what the best thing to do for the future is when you don't understand what is happening in the present.

But I think the new system we now have may show some interesting trends. I like the fact that you can actually see how many viewers are actually in any given forum. Maybe over time that will give me some better insight as to what is going on.

In the meantime, I do appreciate you all trying to help me figure out what my next steps should be. I guess I should try to have you all think I have a firm grasp on a direction I want to go and you have some solid leadership here. But heck, I was never one for trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes.

Well, my pain pill is finally kicking in, so I guess I should head off to bed.

Thanks for bearing with me....

 

[The BoidSmith]

To basically tell people it will cost them money for each post they make seems to be contrary to common sense.

That's exactly what we do at home when we pay for 20 video rentals all at once. When we are done with them we renew it. Let's supposed you decided to bring everyone in the BOI to "0" posts (start from 0). Charge all registrants $10, and let the postings begin. The only thing that will be needed is a system to alert you (or suspend their account) when they reached the 100 post mark. Then an automated system (or a real person $?) sends them a message stating their suscription to the BOI has expired and need to renew it. Just a thought. I really appreciate what you are doing for the hobby/business.

Regards

 

[Sasheena]

A few random thoughts....

(and believe me, I'm THINKING as I TYPE, so if an idea sounds dumb, it probably is)

I like the idea of paying to use the classifieds.... Perhaps even a sort of "get in while the gettings' good" sort of beginning..... advertise for a week, a month, however long you think it is necessary, that posting in the classifieds will go to a subscription-only, but for those who use it a lot now, you might consider giving them a bit of an advantage... pay $10 before we go to subscription and that gives you a lifetime, two years, 5 years... some advantageous thing... like .... I don't know... here it is presented a little more clearly:

Advertisement: "Fauna classifieds will be going to a $35/year subscription only starting January 15th. For those members currently using this service for free, there is a one-time only discount. Pay only $10 before January 15th for the first 18 months!" (or something like that... time periods and amounts could be adjusted as was realistic).... This might be a way to KEEP those who are already posting advertisements. Those who wish to VIEW the advertisements will be able to continue to view them. (for free). And even the person who stumbles onto the site after the "special" will probably see that $35/year is a really good deal. Especially if, as you mentioned, they come here and can see right away that there are ten-fifteen-twenty people viewing the particular forum at any given time! Bang for the buck! When it works, and the sale is made, the determination to continue paying increases.

ANYWAY this is just a thought.

Also, IF there was a plan to charge for the use of the BOI (which I still am not sure is in the best interests of the FEELING of the BOI) there could always be older archives that are viewable by anyone... people can SEE how it works, and perhaps see older threads about some of the "scumbuckets" out there who continue to try to scam people... they will SEE Why it's worth their money.

OR.... there could be (depending on the capabilities of the software of course) some sort of system in place where a person can read the BOI and make a certain number of posts therein, but after reaching a certain level they have to pay a fee. So if they wish to be one of the hecklers, or one of the people putting in their two cents into every little thread, they have to pay for the privelege. But if all they want to do is say "Hey, did business with Joe Schmoe, he's a loser" or "Miss Snakey Pants is the best reptile dealer in the world" well that can be accomplished with a limited number of posts. Let people KNOW how good it is by allowing them to use it. Charge for those who use it more than just a little bit. Or something like that.

AGain, just talking off the top of my head here.

Anyway, take the above rambling for what it is worth!

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, I'm not at all certain what the best route will be for this. I guess I am hoping for some sort of revelation. One of the main reasons for doing a paid subscription plan would be to but a halt to most of the trolling and fake IDs that people will use to circumvent the suspension and fines they got under another name. With it is now, there is absolutely nothing at all to prevent that. Banning IP addresses only works if the user doesn't know how to circumvent that. In actuality, it is a very limited tool.

So if I block the trolls from posting on the BOI, what is to keep them from going, instead, to any of the other forums to post? But if I make posting privileges a paid for option, who in the heck would pay to post in the discussion forums? Classifieds, well maybe people would, but who knows?

Whenever I hear grumblings from people about the garbage and stuff being posted, I try to bring up this issue about paid memberships as the only reasonable likely solution. The most common response is, no, I need to put in more moderators instead. But I have seen too many other sites get damaged by people who have moderation run away with their head and cause more problems then before. So I am only going to add in moderators cautiously and slowly. Heck I have heard of sites that almost got destroyed by a poor judgement call in having some people take over admin rights. Someone getting an attitude with admin rights could completely wipe out a site at the click of a button.

Paid subscriptions would solve a lot of problems, not the least of which is that I am just getting tired of digging into my own pocket for this site. Just this recent upgrade alone cost me $1K. How long will it take me to recover that at my present course? Quite a while. I thought maybe the $1 highlighted ads might be popular and help out, but response has been rather dismal. This further reinforces my belief that most people really only want the freebies and aren't willing to pay for anything here.

I guess what will happen is that one day I will get so fed up with everything that I will put this site into a "sink or swim" position. Which means that this site can either really start paying for itself, or it can go bye-bye. I won't care either way it goes. I am not quite to that point yet, but I am certain it will come to that sooner or later.

 

[Reptile Locators]

Humm! my Opinion has changed a little

One of the main reasons for doing a paid subscription plan would be to but a halt to most of the trolling and fake IDs that people will use to circumvent the suspension and fines they got under another name. With it is now, there is absolutely nothing at all to prevent that. Banning IP addresses only works if the user doesn't know how to circumvent that. In actuality, it is a very limited tool.

So if I block the trolls from posting on the BOI, what is to keep them from going, instead, to any of the other forums to post? But if I make posting privileges a paid for option, who in the heck would pay to post in the discussion forums? Classifieds, well maybe people would, but who knows?

Rich
I do understand a bit more clearly the current situation that it is been proven
some characters will circumvent their suspension and that blocking IP addresses may not be able to be done because they have a bit more computer knowledge and can come back as someone else. That is all fine and well for them but they will eventualy be found and seen for what they really are. Trolls!!

My first initial thoughts were a paid site all the way, But I also question the same now too. If it became a paid site at this point being most want freebee stuff, Who would pay to post in other forums or the BOI? And began to wonder my self do I want to pay for posting ad's. And out of all honesty No!
I do not sell enough to warant spending money where the return is not equal in a financial since. But if it became a paid site their is no Doubt I would still pay to use the site. Not everything is free in Life!

And with all that Rich you have done a wonderful job of upgrading this site
you did a..SMOKIN JOB..of it I will say it is more fun to with all the new bling! bling!

Rich.....Regardless of which way you decide to go paid or not we support your decision and hope we will be able to contribute more to the site in the comming future! And also want to ad that I do apologise to you Rich for any
aggravation I might have caused you!..Ken or other members of the site.