Glenn Bartley said:
Rich,
I have done some more thinking on this issue, and on everyone of the posts herein this particular thread, and about all of the things I remember (if memory serves me correctly and not muddled by middle age) that were said or promised about this site in the past. After doing all of that thinking, it has been over several days now, I decided to give a bit more feedback on this issue. This decision was a tough one for me and; I made it regardless of my saying earlier that I had not intended to add any more to this discussion. I also am adding more regardless of your last written reply to me, and regardless that my contributor status was revoked. I realize this post is made at the peril of your again becoming angry with me, so I have tried to be somewhat more careful with my wording while still getting across some points you may not necessarily like, and others that you may like. I guess I am again at risk of being called an ass for all to see, which is none to easy to take even if I am one at times.
Glenn - I removed the Contributor icon from you because in a previous message you appeared to have a problem with my tying that status to a contribution. Sounded odd to me, but there it was. So I did what I perceived that you wanted me to do: I separated the contribution you made with the Contributor Membership I set up. Simple solution to a simple problem, it appeared to me.
Glenn Bartley said:
Then again, maybe I will have expressed myself better this time, and you will realize I am only trying to be helpful in my own way. In that regard, I would like to point out that while I may have, in my second post in this thread (I think on page 5), wondered if there had been motives other than those expressed for you to have done certain things, I would like to point out that such was just that wondering and, it was not wondering if they were nefarious motives but just motives other than those you had readily expressed publically before. While I also may have posed some questions that were tough ones, or that made you uncomfortable, again let me point out they were just questions and hypothetical musings on my part that had me wondering what was and is going on with some changes that came to me as surprises. They were real concerns for me, regardless of how they were construed by you. They were not meat to be attacks on you. I apologize for anything I wrote that may have led to you thinking I was attacking your integrity; I was not. That was never my intent. My intent was to help you maintain this site as the best herp site there is. I hope you will consider what I have said again in a calmer mind set and, I hope you will consider what I am about to say in the same fashion. Hopefully it will help guide you to a solution.
Hypothetical musings made in public are generally intended by the writer to make people thing of what is thought. By reading what your wrote, it got me to think a certain way, which certainly had to be your intention. You had intentions in mind when you wrote your words, likely with one of more effects in mind as a result. Be careful about what you wish for.
Glenn Bartley said:
Now to the meat of this issue:
I have been a longtime member of faunaclassifieds, I guess, for a few years now. I think I was around for the early stages of the ORIGINAL BOI. I have been here maybe even several years now but, I have very poor recollection of timelines. I do know I have been here for several changes this site has gone through. I have been here long enough to know some of the reasons this site came to be, and some of the reasons why this site continues to be one of the best, if not the very best, herp site on the Internet. I do know there has been a guiding concept or two that maintains this site as what it has become. The main reason for all of this site’s success, other than the hard work of you (Rich Z), has been the member. The main reasons the membership has been attracted to this site over and over again, besides it being free, was the Board Of Inquiry (BOI) and the herp business discussion forums but, the BOI is (or has been) the number one draw. Now that statement about the BOI may not be correct in recent times and, maybe there is something else that draws more people here such as the Leo forum (no kidding, I know it is a busy one) but, my guess is I am right and the BOI is still the main draw.
Maybe. But offering a pile of dog crap for free will not attract people to it. People come to it because of what it offers. They expect to get something in return for the time they spend reading the threads. So, in a sense, it has a certain amount of value to them, whether it be via the information they can glean from it, or simply from an entertainment perspective.
At some point in time, just about any resource that began as being a free service has to stop and consider at what point does the value become a one way street. In other words, the caretaker and manager of such a resource HAS to consider what their time and efforts are worth in order to maintain this FREE resource for everyone else. Can you think of any other websites that started off as a free resource but finally got into the position where they HAD to start charging for some of the services? Now why do you think that happened?
Glenn Bartley said:
In that light, the BOI should not be taken simply for its entertainment value. This is what you suggested you should do in an earlier post somewhere in the previous 11 pages of this thread. That would be a crying shame for a few reasons above and beyond the BOI being the biggest drawing forum on this site. It would be a shame because the BOI was initiated to promote integrity among the world of the herp business. It was initiated to weed out the scum buckets who would screw us over. It is a lot like the Consumer Reports of herp forums. Yeah I know CR does not accept advertisers and FC does, but so what. CR does not let each and every reader chime in with their two cents on each and every dealer. C/R does not allow each and every manufacturer to fight back either. There are differences and there are similarities and the analogy stands. Each stands for integrity and the protection of the consumer.
Integrity and entertainment value are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Each person can find their own value in the BOI as they see fit. But you brought up integrity, so let's address that here. What is the thing that is most likely to degrade the integrity of the BOI? Well in my opinion, it is anonymous postings made that people can post untrue statements at will without any real recourse about it. People have, can, and will post under false names and post anything they want without any means to verify that they are real. People can post positive reviews about themselves and in many cases will not get caught. People will post negative things as multiple people to try to strength their own case, and in many instances will get away with it. Some people will just post garbage to clutter up the threads, with no other reason then just because they have nothing better to do and they have a destructive personality. And there is really nothing that can be done about it.
My suggestions was to help increase the integrity of the BOI by making it MANDATORY that someone provide a minimal amount of credibility into their own identity by providing a means of providing payment for the right to post there. Sure I could just say I would verify each person for free, but I hope no one reading this thinks I will do that. My time has value to me, and I am certainly not going to fritter it away in such a manner. So the minimal fee I would ask would be in partial compensation for the time it would take to implement such a plan. If you all think I am going to get rich off of something like $10 per head, then you had better break out your calculators and sit down and work some numbers.
Glenn Bartley said:
Rich, you are considering charging for the use of the BOI as well as for the use of other amenities on this site. That is your prerogative as you own and run the whole shebang. Lately you has apparently found it suitable to allow only contributing members to have a say in the forum labeled as the Steering Committee Meeting Room. I was dropped because I complained about what I saw as a misrepresentation of a donaton I had made, or maybe because of a misrepresentation of my complaint when you read and responded to it! Maybe I am incorrect about but, I would have sworn that my having made a monetary contribution did not matter when you had asked me to join that forum quite some time ago. If I had realized that it was just my monetary contribution that had mattered, I would never have agreed that it seemed like a good idea in the first place. I thought being placed into that forum depended upon the level of support users had shown based upon ideas and suggestions, other than just money. I am not faulting you. You can choose to allow people into a forum for whatever reason you prefer. The thing is I will fault the validity of the decisions of people in such a forum as those decisions apply to all the other users on this site being that the site has always been free and now the people who have not contributed money are excluded from the initial decision making processes. I don’t think that is right, but that is just my opinion whether you like it or not. No I am not trying to get you mad, I am restating my opinion in clearer terms.
Perhaps you are under a misunderstanding. The Steering Committee Forum was set up for contributors to this site. My reasoning was that people who are willing to contribute monetarily to this site have expressed a positive signal that they are interested and willing to help in the guidance of where this site will go in the future. I think this is a logical thought to have. As such, and to make things easier on me to manage such a program, I tied access to that forum to the Contributor Membership. When you expressed distain for having that icon and membership *given* to you for a previous donation, I did what appeared to be your bidding and removed that status and icon. That also terminated your access to the forum in question, because you are no longer a Contributing Member, as per your implied wishes.
Am I wrong about tying financial contributions and donations to a *hope* on my part that such people are also acutely interested in the survival and growth of this site? Maybe. But I think for now that it will suffice as a reasonable benchmark until something better comes along. But I am hard pressed to think of an alternative at the moment.
Glenn Bartley said:
Likewise, I certainly do not think it is right for you to charge users of the BOI an admission fee in order to be able to view and/or to be able to post therein. The BOI has always been free, and that is one of the reasons it maintains any integrity at all despite some of the jerks who post therein. Anyone can post therein, and anyone can praise or find fault with another who is involved in herp transactions without paying a fee and, anyone can defend themselves without having to pay you a fee to be able to defend himself! There is a big problem with the way the integrity of the BOI will be viewed if someone has to pay to be able to defend themselves against allegations made by others. I am not saying that the integrity of the BOI will actually have fallen a notch or two, but the appearance will certainly be there. In my job, for instance, I can not even allow for the appearance of lack of integrity with respect to many things. Once such an appearance is there I could be fired. Once it is here on this site because of a pay for use fee the detractors of this site will have more of a field day than they have ever had before as they try to bash it even harder than before. Someone asked you, I think it was Dan (long time faunaclassifieds supporter), something about why many big time herp dealers will not use this site. The reason is because of the BOI. They rather would flock to a site like kingsnake.com because at that site they do not allow, if I understand correctly, negative or even positive feedback of their advertisers in their forums. If someone in business has a choice between advertising on a site where they will or will not get negative exposure that they can potentially get at faunaclassifieds on the BOI, as opposed to one where they can receive praise and hate mail, which site do you think they will likely believe is in their best interest to choose. Many of them, the majority I think, have chosen it time and time again, and it is not this one.
Just because something has always been free means that it must ALWAYS remain free? I'm sure you can come up with some examples where this is definitely not true, can't you Glenn? I think you have already mentioned a site where exactly this has happened with their classifieds sections. And I have to admit that I fully understand why he did that. It is because of the value of what people are getting in return. Otherwise they just would not pay it. So maybe, just maybe, I am now reaching that point where I may have to find out whether the BOI and the rest of this site has enough value to people to make it worth my time and effort to keep it going.
As for charging such a minimal fee degrading the integrity of the BOI, maybe, but I don't think so. I believe it would be a step up and would weed out some of the crap that has plagued the BOI from the beginning. But there are always compromises, as nothing is ever really perfect. Sure some people might not want to spend that princely sum of $10 to be able to post their opinions. I guess that is just tough for them. But for anyone with something of real value and importance to post, I think this will not be a hurtle at all for them to meet.
As for the big name dealers and breeders, well that is their decision upon what they do. Personally, I don't see that I really need them if they choose not to help this site. But one important fact that they may be overlooking is that THIS site is about the only place around where the little guy can get their name up in print for praise and good business that they are doing. Sure the stars of the show are the bad guys and stomping on them. But just as important are the new guys that are able to now get a leg up and get recognition that they just can't get anywhere else. And you know what? This new guys are going to be the BIG NAMES in the future. And they are getting their start RIGHT HERE. So soon enough, those older big names won't be the big names any longer. People will still remember them, of course, but they are falling behing in being in the eye of the public that are looking for the good guys to do business with.
So I am OK with those BIG NAME people not wanting to be at this site. We will do just fine without them. The good guy and bad guy threads will take place about them, with or without their participation. And soon people will likely start wondering about why they are not here, and even that may be cause for doubt in their minds about them. Some people WILL start thinking that people who aren't helping are actually hindering. People do think that way sometimes, you know. People will wonder WHY they aren't lending a hand to a site that is trying to clean up the industry they are in.
Glenn Bartley said:
So we have arrived at a point where you can either leave this site as it is, or charge a fee to use the BOI and other features. Charging a fee for the BOI is likely to ruin it as I see it. There will be less feedback left, even if the same amount were to be left it would be viewed as less credible than usual because you have to be the member of a paying group to leave it, the member of a paying group to view it (maybe – I realize this may not wind up being the case), and the member of a paying group to defend yourself even though you did not have to be a member of that group to be ragged on by someone in the group. That last is where the integrity or lack of integrity issue raises its ugly head.
Perhaps. I don't have a crystal ball to look into. Everything I do can be good or bad to someone. And I certainly have no illusions about pleasing everyone no matter what I do. Heck, if I ran a campaign to give away $20 bills to all members, someone would certainly complain about that as well. So I have to do what I think is best, and just live with the repercussions.
As for paying members only being able to post on the BOI, I have received many requests in the past to do just that sort of thing. But I resisted up until now, to even consider it. Right now, if we lost even half of the registered members because they got incensed at this fee, we would still be far ahead of the membership number we had this time last year. But maybe it would be time to shake the chaff from the wheat and be happy with what is left here. Because it would be the people SERIOUSLY interested in the future of this business remaining, and all of the looky-lous and thrill seekers will be off to greener (for them) pastures.
Paying the fee will not be a hurtle that will reduce the integrity at all. Not in my opinon. The fact that only someone with the incentive to want to pay for the ability to state their facts or opinions I think will weed out a lot of the text that really has no value at all.
Glenn Bartley said:
So what else can be done. People can contribute more. I saw on one thread wherein you, back in December (I think), said you were thinking a $25 lifetime fee. Not bad, nor is a $10 fee but, many have already contributed to this site. For instance (and I am not blowing my horn, just using my self as an example because I know how much I have given) I have contributed three times and; I got my herp society to buy ad space last year. It was not a whole lot of money, but it was something given to this site. My donations are above the amount you have been considering for a lifetime user fee. I would likely continue contributing if this remained a free site, but my contributions would discontinue if this became a pay per use site. I would have a tough decision to make as to whether or not I would actually pay a fee to use this site. I have contributed $60 to date in 3 contributions. That would be enough for over two life memberships at the contemplated rate, or for 6 years at the $10 per year rate. I was about to donate more money, another $25 a few days ago, but had some questions about the way things were going, and held off for then. I guess I find it hard to believe that the donations made by contributors to this site would not be enough to keep it running when added to the money garnered from advertisers. Yet I am not doubting you when you say such is the case. So I wind up being surprised that so many users must either not be donating, or if donating then not donating anything that amounts to much, or. If that is the case, what is wrong with the rest of you, those who either do not donate or donate even less than $10 per year, the proposed membership fee. Yes I see the problems. Some are kids, many are probably multiple registrants (one person who registers more than once under different user names); but the real problem is people who do not donate any or enough. Or is it that the site is just growing to rampantly fast to be supported through more desirable means than a user’s fee, more on this further down.
Well I have tried just about every OPTIONAL way I could think of to get people to help out with expenses for this site. Yes money is rolling in OK and I am not operating in the red any longer, but there is still one hell of a long way to go before all of the expenses from prior years and anything NEAR what it takes to compensate for my time and efforts will be met.
But my expenses are not optional if I want to keep this site running. I have to pay for the servers and for help when I need some things done on this site that I no longer have time to do it. Those expenses come out of my pocket, whether or not those OPTIONAL revenue generators are used by people here or not. I would have thought that the extremely cheap $1 per highlighted ad program would have been much more popular then it is. I doubt that the money it has brought in has even come close to paying for the programming tab I had to pay to implement it.
Banner advertisers are really carrying the load here, but every month someone will just drop out without any notice nor response to my emails about it. Just gone..... But even this is a two edged sword. Running the banner ads uses a lot of resources on the server to keep those banners running. As traffic increases and page views increase, so does the load that the banner ad system has to bear up under. I am forecasting that I will have to put the banner ad system itself on it's own server within the next two years. Maybe sooner the way things are going. That will be another rather large monthly fee that I will have to cover, and as such, a step backwards in the financial situation here.
Sure, if people were falling all over themselves availing themselves of the optional banner ads, highlighted ads, forum sponsor links, and Contributor Memberships, life would be just rosy, and at least the financial worries would be over. But that just is not the case, and I don't see it turning around abruptly any time soon.
So it is boiling down to I have to either make this all worthwhile, FOR ME, do to, or consider what my time is better off doing. I DO have a life, you know? And I do have to do something financially worthwhile to pay the living expenses and put food on the table. To allow something like this that people EXPECT to get for free to get in the way of my being able to make a comfortable living for myself and my wife is ludicrous. And I challenge any one of you to say that you truthfully would put yourself out as much as I have in the past for this and say you will continue to do so until they lay you in your grave.
Glenn Bartley said:
Of course, there is another way to improve the money that comes into this site, rather than charging membership fees or even asking for donations. You could raise advertising fees. In order to do so you would have to assure your advertisers (or stand the prospect of losing them) that you would provide an advertiser friendly site that would markedly help promote their business. This would involve competition, a great deal of it. The competition would come from other forms of advertising such as print ads, and from other web sites like king snake. Take my word for it, kingsnake dot com would be a hard competitor to beat. They are at the top of the hill for a reason. That reason has to do a lot with business savvy. It also has a lot to do with kingsnake not having a BOI. That is part of their business know how. A BOI and good business with plenty of advertisers do not necessarily have to be exclusive of one another yet, chances are that they do not go together well. Even an honest businessman can have his reputation tarnished by someone who wants to throw mud at that reputation. You seem to think that having a paying membership (maybe with a higher fee of $35.00 per year) would discourage such a thing. I don’t think it will discourage it to the point you believe possible and; as a matter of fact I believe it may make the problem of lack of integrity on the BOI much worse.
You lost me on this one, Glenn. Are you really saying that I need to dump the BOI, which you previously have stated is the main draw for this site, in order to draw advertisers? You have said that charging a fee for people to post on the BOI would likely destroy the BOI, and in implication this site along with it. So if destroying the BOI with charging a fee would destroy this site, why would eliminating the BOI not destroy this site as well? And if this site then has no attraction to viewers, what the hell would advertisers want to be here for?
Maybe I read that wrong, but that is entirely possible at this point. This is ONE LONG message I am replying to, and I am about worn out at this point.
Glenn Bartley said:
We all know that little time herpers, in between herpers, and big time dealers use the BOI. If it comes to a pay for use situation, then the big time businesses (relatively speaking for this site) will be the ones who can afford to register multiple times. Therefore the people in business who are doing well can take unfair advantage of a system that was, in the first place, implemented to weed out those who would take unfair advantage of others. Don’t think for a moment either that some dealers would not take advantage of this situation and do just that – pay to register multiple times as, different users, so they could stack the deck against a competitor in the BOI. You have seen it happen too many times that unscrupulous dealers take unfair advantage of others, so please don’t think they would not do so in a fee for use BOI. Remember the reason the BOI came about was because of the scum buckets who were out there and your desire to show them to the world for what they truly were! This new pay for use system, although cutting down on abuses by the hobbyist herper, will quite possibly elevate the number of abuses from the businessman herper. No there should not be a charge for the BOI, if you keep the BOI in place at all.
Man, you lost me again. Earlier you were saying that the big time herpers and big names in this industry avoid this site because of the BOI. Now you are saying that the BOI would lose integrity because it would ONLY be those people who would pay the fee to post there? Sorry but I have completely lost the train of thought you were trying to present here, obviously. Personally, I would think that the bigger names in this industry would welcome that there was a hurtle for people to overcome in order to post on the BOI. The complete wild west atmosphere there now certainly seems to have some of them hiding in the bushes.
And again you imply that possibly I should just toss the BOI out the window. I don't understand your motives in suggesting that I drop the BOI if you are looking out for the welfare of this site. Do you seriously think this site would draw as many people, even close to this many people, without the BOI being here?
Glenn Bartley said:
I guess that brings up another way to solve the issue of charging a user fee. You could take the BOI and trash it. Then charge whatever you deem necessary for this site. You will of course have gotten rid of the main draw to this site, and you would probably have accomplished losing some users and some of the more respectable dealers in having done so. You will also have destroyed the main reason for the success of this site other than your hard work and the dedication of the site users. You will have destroyed the best drawing forum I have seen in the herp world, and the only easy method we have of weeding out the trash. Who cares what booted users say about the BOI being useless, don’t you see they are just being spiteful because it weeded them out! The BOI has good effect at weeding out dirt bags and protecting the consumer, but yes it also has the effect of preventing this site from making you as much money as this site could make.
You are joking, right? Glenn, I am sorry now I even started to reply to this post. I have NO idea what you are even talking about any longer. But I might as well plug along and finish it. But PLEASE don't bother responding to it. I do not think we are thinking on the same wavelength.
Glenn Bartley said:
There are also other solutions to consider. You have gotten many suggestions from yourself, and from others. Maybe you need to tone the whole site down a bit in quantity and keep the quality and integrity. Maybe you need to trim back on some of the bandwidth used on this site. Maybe conserving or saving by trimming a bit here and there is what is needed. This site has grown from that tiny little cute hatchling into a 25 foot long, and well fattened Burmese Python! Maybe it is time for a smaller more easily managed snake instead of more food and a bigger enclosure for that Burm. I guess that is just another suggestion as to another possible solution.
Bandwidth is not a problem and does not contribute to the expense. I am nowhere near the limit that comes free with the servers I have leased.
OK, I'll bite. HOW do I increase the quality and integrity of this site. THAT is what I am trying to accomplish with the small fee I am talking about implementing. What is YOUR plan?
Glenn Bartley said:
Then again, you could leave the BOI as free and charge for the rest of the site as you continue to feed the Burm. Or you could leave the BOI free with most of the discussion forums free and, then charge for the rest of the Business Forums and some select others such as the for sale and wanted ad forums. This last is probably the best way for you to go if you have to resort to actually charging a fee to keep that Burmese fed. This though is where I would still have a problem, an ethical one of my own. You see, you offered this site as free for many years. You stressed its being a free site, and the importance of it remaining free. Then, based upon the importance of this remaining a free site, you began to ask for financial assistance in the form of contributions to keep this site free. Besides asking for donations, you asked for suggestions and, you asked for your users to support you with advertising. It was a big thing you trying to keep this site alive. We thought so, that is all of your users who made a contribution in any way. We believed we were fighting for a cause – a free faunaclassifieds – including the BOI. Well maybe just one jerk, yours truly, actually believed all of that but; I am pretty sure there were more than me. Now maybe I am wrong here but, when I checked my PayPal payments to you, I saw that the reason for payment was exactly that: a donation to keep this a free site. Didn’t you put that into PayPal as why we were paying you?
From what I can recall, I have said from the beginning that I was going to try every option I could to keep from having to charge a fee for using this site. That has been from day one when I first set up the banner ad system. I recall saying that I will try this to see if it works. I have never waivered from that thought. I am still, to this day, trying every option I can think of OTHER then a fee. What I am telling you now, is that they ARE NOT WORKING. Not to the extent that I can see them meeting the financial needs of this site(and me, personally) in the foreseeable future.
Glenn Bartley said:
Don’t get mad when you read the next. Just read it and keep reading: Was that wish something you took lightly? I doubt it. Was the whole idea of donating money to keep this a free site just something that you have decided was not profitable so it is no longer a goal? I don’t know, I find it a perplexing question. Has the wish to keep the site free become something you have forgotten or, something you believe is lost and impossible to achieve, because it was maybe said with good intent but not with lasting strength of absolute conviction. I do not mean to imply that you lied to us, so don’t take it that way. I think you meant for it to stay free, but it grew in leaps and bounds as you pushed the growth. Yes it was you who pushed and pushed this site to grow and grow more as also did some of us (I am guilty of this too). As it did grow I think it has overwhelmed you somewhat, especially with your other business. I think maybe the thing you are looking at primarily is now how to keep it growing to keep it getting better. What I think happened is that you have allowed the growth of this site to become tantamount in your line of thought – maybe (please note this is only a hypothesis on my part) you have never dropped the battle royal with Jeff at kingsnake, therefore the continuous push to be the biggest and best herp site on the internet. It is a goal, and a worthy one, so long as it is driven by the original convictions you had when that battle started. Sometimes though, things change or we lose track. We then have to reassess our goals and maybe look back to our old goals, our old convictions, the initial driving forces behind our dreams. The goal of having a great site for herp business discussions, of having a free site, of having a BOI (yes I know this was a secondary goal but it was and is a worthy one), of keeping the integrity of the BOI, of having a supportive membership, of keeping this site the absolute best quality wise, of keeping to your ideals and implied promises, are all more important than the growth of this site to have it become and remain the biggest. I am not saying you have done anything to break a promise but it seems as if those dreams are all about to come crashing down just to promote further growth over maintained best quality
.
Nope. I am in no sort of competitive drive at all. As for Jeff Barringer and I, I believe we have settled our differences and buried the hatchet. But this discussion has nothing at all to do with that past situation.
I think I have expressed my reasoning elsewhere in this reply, so I don't see any sense in being redundant. This site takes an ever increasing toll on my time, efforts, and finances. And to be honest, I guess I do resent it when I hear people say that they fully expect me to do all of this for free, for them, because that is just the way they want it to be. So what if I feel I should run this now as a business? A PROFITABLE business? How is that any different from anyone else out there running a business that they want to be profitable? I don't see anyone giving away their animals for free. Do you? When you get your paycheck, do you hand it back to your employer and say "Hell boss, I don't need this. I'm working here as a public service."
So if you all feel you should be compensated for your time and efforts, why is it such a crime against humanity when I, finally after all these years running this site, putting up with the crap it has dumped on my shoulders, start talking about doing the same thing? What is the criteria that you are using in saying that I am somehow the bad guy for thinking this where everyone else trying to make a buck for their time and efforts is OK? Explain to me the logic you are thinking, please.
Glenn Bartley said:
In light the above, I have to say this: After donating to keep this site free, it just seems a kick in the head of a downed man (removed from the contributor list which is not what I had a problem with, I even said I liked the icon in my earlier post) to have to pay to join it after having been a full fledged member for so long. Ouch! When you were down we helped you out. You are down now and, I imagine people are still helping you out but; maybe you are expecting a bit much from your members and from your site and from yourself. Don’t give up on your old convictions and dreams just to promote the expansion of the site. Use those convictions, with your new ideas, and with all forms of member support, to find a better solution than charging a fee for this site. We have been here to help you out when you needed us and we are still here willing to help. Don’t look to find what is at your feet already – the best herp site on the Internet with the best and most caring membership out there. And remember, this site does not have to be the biggest to be the best. Heck it is already the best. It does not need hundreds of forums to achieve the zenith, you are at the top already and, maybe you don’t see it. A great business discussions forum, quality and integrity, a Free BOI, a free discussion site, and a membership family that cares will keep you there. Think of it this way, if kingsnake.com started to charge for discussion forum use (not paid ads but for the ability to discuss how cute is my kingsnake type things) how many members would they have tomorrow. Man you would have a lot more bandwidth being used here because of all the new users who would flock here, don’t you think. Don’t lose good people, and give up your dreams and convictions just to be too much like them.
Well speaking of kicks in the head. From my perspective, after all I have gone through to keep this site up and running, from the time, and effort I have put into it, from the amount of money that has come out of my own pockets over the years paying for what you see now, perhaps I see it as a kick to my head that people would grouse over something like a $10 fee to use only parts of this entire site. How's that for a boot to the temple?
Glenn Bartley said:
Of course you can reply to all of this by saying again that I am an ass
but, I hope this time I stated what I was thinking more clearly to you than the last time.
All the best,
Glenn B
No comment....
). Let the site run a little slower, let it have a few less bells and whistles (and charge for those bells that you do put out there), stop allowing people to attach photos (saving bandwidth and pushing them towards the photo gallery where you can capture their revenue), set up a separate folder in your email program to handle fauna and only go in there when your in the mood to deal with the morons. Your mods do a good job of putting out immediate fires and anything that gets real bad can just be tossed into HELL. 
