Info Pat Kline Luxurious Geckos Blue Pac Man

[Scrooge]

If anything the male is seafoam green, but come on man if anyone tells me that's the color blue or any variation of it I'm going to get my eyes checked today! Haha! Pat I like you posted the pics of the male- you and me no problem- the problem is with the marketing names the frogs have- and you don't have control of the names they have unless you make your own morph.
I consider this resolved to the fullest for what I was inquirying- as for the other mysteries surrounding this issue- I think this will be the last designer pacman I will buy.

 

[snared99]

I think making a video is a great idea, im going to start working on it. There is def not a cut and dry scale for some of the morphs, and there is a lot of info that is incorrect out there.

 

[LauraB]

I realize the OP considers this transaction resolved and is seeking nothing at this point.

However, just out of curiosity, who produced the babies advertised in the original sale ad?

Obviously the OP did not receive a frog even closely resembling the awesome blue frog in the original ad. Nor did he receive, IMO, a "teal blue" animal.

Pat, do you own the vibrant blue frog depicted in the ad? Since it is not the breeder male, is that frog only "representive" of what a buyer might logically expect when ordering a "teal blue" frog? Is that particular frog (in your ad)one of the babies sired by Mike's male or a sibling of the animal the OP received?

There is def not a cut and dry scale for some of the morphs, and there is a lot of info that is incorrect out there

With due respect, I think that's obvious. It would be helpful if you would enlighten readers to that which is incorrect.

Can the OP expect a color change as the animal matures? Or is the frog the OP received considered "teal blue" simply because the "morph" sire has a small amount of light blue on it's body and a designer tag?

 

[snared99]

I realize the OP considers this transaction resolved and is seeking nothing at this point.

However, just out of curiosity, who produced the babies advertised in the original sale ad?

Obviously the OP did not receive a frog even closely resembling the awesome blue frog in the original ad. Nor did he receive, IMO, a "teal blue" animal.

Pat, do you own the vibrant blue frog depicted in the ad? Since it is not the breeder male, is that frog only "representive" of what a buyer might logically expect when ordering a "teal blue" frog? Is that particular frog (in your ad)one of the babies sired by Mike's male or a sibling of the animal the OP received?

With due respect, I think that's obvious. It would be helpful if you would enlighten readers to that which is incorrect.

Can the OP expect a color change as the animal matures? Or is the frog the OP received considered "teal blue" simply because the "morph" sire has a small amount of light blue on it's body and a designer tag?

As stated I did not produce these, Mr.Matson did. The pic of the adult is the actual animal whom produced this spawn, and mike termed them teal blues. It is a designer name placed on a linebred teal project. As far as the other "blues" on the market i hear alot of stories, but not willing to comment because i know nothing as a matter of fact. I can tell you I own one Samurai blue which i bought 4 weeks ago, and it is not as blue today as the day I bought it, while these only get more teal with age.

 

[Lucille]

As stated I did not produce these, Mr.Matson did. The pic of the adult is the actual animal whom produced this spawn, and mike termed them teal blues. It is a designer name placed on a linebred teal project. As far as the other "blues" on the market i hear alot of stories, but not willing to comment because i know nothing as a matter of fact. I can tell you I own one Samurai blue which i bought 4 weeks ago, and it is not as blue today as the day I bought it, while these only get more teal with age.

Could you please post the ad you put up for the sale of these frogs?
I sent Mike Matson a link to this thread, perhaps he can offer some insights, but even if he produced the frogs, it is the seller's ad which is critical in defining the expectations of buyers.

 

[snared99]

I do not have the ad unfortunately, this discussion started taking place on the actual ad so i removed it. I didn't feel the classifieds section was appropriate for this discussion on the colors.

 

[Lucille]

I do not have the ad unfortunately, this discussion started taking place on the actual ad so i removed it. I didn't feel the classifieds section was appropriate for this discussion on the colors.

If the ad was placed here on Fauna, I am thinking it may be possible that if you make a request to a moderator that they can repost it here.

 

[Scrooge]

I bought these frogs for nostalgia- and I thought blue would be a nice fit to go with some of my other rare animals. I am satisfied because everyone here I gifted a frog loves their frogs even though they are green- it's cool, I'm not shipping the frogs back and I don't have room for more frogs- I think the frogs I have are worth 32.50- I mean 32.50 is cheap for any reptil/amphibian and the ones I have are nice plump and they are all eating well. My local Petsupermarket has one- 69.99- If I would have searched searched searched I could of got something similar for 15-25$- but again even though they are green in my eyes- I know what quality is also- i see matsons website and I like what I see, i can see the lineage the care put into raising these frogs.

Does my frog look like the picture? No, that's why I posted this thread.
Does the frog in the picture exist- probably out the 5000 babies that hatched probably 1 came out like that- that's the frog BTMexotics states is probably worth 400.00$plus- or the breeder will hold back to breed better blue frogs.
I would allow the blue picture if in the add it would state- colors vary dramatically or state that it's a variable morph.- then ask for pictures of the individuals being shipped too you also. I would not have even looked at the ad twice though nostalgia or not if the neon blue willamsi nosey be look alike frog was not on the front cover.

 

[Robert Walker]

My personal take on this...

Pat I like you posted the pics of the male- you and me no problem- the problem is with the marketing names the frogs have- and you don't have control of the names they have unless you make your own morph. I consider this resolved to the fullest for what I was inquirying-

If the problem is with "marketing names" and it is out of Pat's control, why is there a BOI inquiry on Pat? This whole blue/green poll should have/could have been placed in the Amphibian forum, minus Pat entirely.

I would allow the blue picture if in the add it would state- colors vary dramatically or state that it's a variable morph.- then ask for pictures of the individuals being shipped too you also. I would not have even looked at the ad twice though nostalgia or not if the neon blue willamsi nosey be look alike frog was not on the front cover.

Did you ever ask for "exact" pictures of the frogs you were buying in advance? Clearly if you bought multiple frogs, a single picture of a frog couldn't have been an exact picture of them all. As much as buyers what to push 100% of the burden onto sellers for describing all the endless possibilities/variations that could exist, it is ultimately the buyers responsibility to ask exact/specific questions of the product they are buying. If descriptions are too vague, ask probing questions and fully educate yourself prior to purchase.

As I already mentioned, a discusson on Teal Blue Pacman frog genetics could have taken place prior on the amphibian forum. Everything you know now could have been learned in advance.

I tell you this morning Pat sent me several emails to make this right- but since I don't want money or want new frogs from him- we were at a stand still.

If he offered to make it right, but you won't work with him under normal conditions, that is not his fault.

I'm glad you are enjoying the frogs you got

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

I have extensive knowledge of these frogs. I know Yusuke mural (samurai Japan reptiles) I am actually on my way to his daughters 1st birthday party as I type this. I also know mike matson. I know pretty much all there is to know about this subject. I don't have time this weekend to go into great detail but I will Monday.i am very busy!
It is not 1 out of 5000 . It is 100 % genetic . There is so much to get into and so much horribly wrong info being spread around it's sickening. I don't even know where to start.
What happened here is a classic bait and switch period.
And people should stop referring to matson lines as independent of samurais like his are somehow superior? thats hilarious

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Yusuke murai to correct the typo.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

What happened here is someone used a picture of a medium to high grade samurai pacman in their ad and sent low grade samurai pacmans or out crossed babies to their customers. Even the nice looking frog in the original ad is not a samurai blue. It's just a nice grade samurai. That frog is worth about 80-100$. A samurai paan is just a strain that has different grades ( kind of like crystal red shrimp) but they also are potential gene carriers for mutations like the piebalds pure whites etc. People misrepresenting these frogs to sell lower grades is one of the things that created all this bad info. Some sellers did this intentionally and some did it out of ignorance. I will tLk to Yusuke and help him post at the beginning of the week. He is a Japanese citizen and has poor English but I will help him.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

When those sellers got called out about the frogs not being blue then the bs about vitamin deficiency and it being the food started. Discredit someone to get yourself off the hook. Smoke and mirrors. It should be so obvious to people but folks would rather feel ripped off than feel to cheap to pay top dollar for top shelf animals.

 

[Lucille]

People misrepresenting these frogs to sell lower grades is one of the things that created all this bad info.

but folks would rather feel ripped off than feel to cheap to pay top dollar for top shelf animals.

If sellers misrepresent a critter that is fraud. Buyers who have relied on misrepresentations and get, to their detriment, lower quality, ARE ripped off.

For any bunch of critters there are very good examples and not so good examples. If what is being said prior is true, that the teal color intensifies later in life, then whether you get a good deal or pay top dollar, it seems that, like hets (similar in that you don't 'see what you get'), the situation may be ripe for scammers to dupe unsuspecting customers.

 

[Robert Walker]

Since Pat is unable to restore the ad, here is the only ad I can find related to this issue. Three posts made on the thread.
Eduardo says, "I understand there are different levels of blue with pac man frogs- I should of asked for pictures before of the actual frogs before he sent." - bingo!

 

[Robert Walker]

To clarify, as much as I think Eduardo should have asked for pictures in advance, I would suggest Pat could offer up individual pictures in advance to save himself some repeated headache down the road. For me personally, when I sell something, I always include a picture of the exact animal. Got 100 Teal Blue Pacman Frogs? Great then I would get clicking the camera 100 times. Neither party should allow things to be left vague, state and ask details and don't let assumptions rule out reality.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Robert did you read the last post in the ad by the seller? Smoke and mirrors. These are not samurai blues. These are mike matsons line they get more blue. Then goes back and states it's a heck of a good price for grade c samurais. Why not call them grade c samurai pacmans in the first place? It's a verbal she'll game. And They will not turn more blue with age.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Even Eduardo gets sucked in. There is no grade c samurai blue. There is a c grade samurai. But a blue is blue a super blue is super blue there is no grade c in a samurai blue.

 

[Robert Walker]

Yes Jay, I have read the ad several times. Honestly I don't know anything about frogs. I don't know anything about Blue vs. Teal vs. Green when it comes to "marketing names". I don't know anything about who's linage belongs where vs. samurai, etc. I look forward to learning about it in the amphibian forum once everyone shares their insight.

However... I don't need to understand any of that to understand "business".
It "appears" neither party offered up or asked for pictures of the exact animals in question "before" the purchase, so presto here we are today. If the seller flat out "lied" about something, please let me know. If this solely is a question of "grading", there lies the problem of not exchanging exact photos.

So is this really a question of "grading", OR is there an actual "lie"? Again, since I know nothing about frogs, I am definitely open to learning and be shown the actual lie, just make it real simple and easy to follow. Thanks

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Personally my opinion is this. There was intentional deceit. Otherwise all frogs sold would look like the one in the pic. They don't require individual pics. there was not price range for different grades. A high end frog was used to sell low end frogs. And admittedly so when the seller said 40 is a great price for grade c. Call them whatever you want but the photo is of a frog that is not representative of what is being sold. No different than selling red bearded dragons with a bright red animal pictured and then shipping brown beardeds to your customers.