Info Paul Buckley of NY - questionable shipping practices

[paul buckley]

now that i have a moment, i'd like to comment on this. i'll get to the shipping of these snakes, but first off, the snakes themselves; they are the main concern in any situation. ball pythons in their enclosures mostly regulate at 86 degrees - that seems to be their preferred "spot". telling me that my snakes came in at 90 degrees does not cause me great alarm... and thats not because i do not care, which is the picture being skewed here - i care very much. find me one person that does this as a hobby (not as a business) who does not care. we ALL care about our animals - it's why we do this... we all love our animals... but we all spend way too much time trying to convince everybody else that the other herper does not care. i see it every day on fauna and kingsnake and it's disturbing. i follow the temps of my snakes throughout the year very closely and there are times where they do sit right on the 88-92 hotspot and they will register at 90 degrees. granted that would not be brilliant for the long haul, but it's certainly no reason to write a vitriolic email saying i'm running these snakes right off to the vet and i'm thinking neurological problems, and this and that. when someone is taking the time to lecture me on my ignorance and saying ignorant things to me in return, it gets my hackles up, as it would anyone else. also i had just gone out of my way to give a free snake due to a very minor snafu that i could have easily chosen to walk away from - so i was expecting a polite and friendly transaction.

the delivery. i happily concede that afternoon shipping is not smart. fact is it's generally what i do unless its late july / august or i'm shipping to fla or south cali or something along those lines... and no, it is not to save $4 as someone so nicely suggested. until i read that, i did not even know that was the monetary difference. i walk into my fedex hub and i always say "overnight afternoon delivery". i did have someone recently ask for a.m. delivery and they got a.m. delivery simply because they requested it. but no, afternoon delivery does not make a ton of sense. i see that now and if one good thing came out of this, it's that.

the box. looking at pictures of my box deconstructed will look a mess. thats a fact. but it's also not reality - it is very much out of context. before i send my boxes, i give it a light shake. if anything at all moves the slightest bit, i take it apart and redo it till it's silent. basic engineering states that an arch bears more of a load and shock better than any straight line. while pieces of bent cardboard do not look pretty or traditional, it is no different than lining your box with egg cartons. in the center is another container, which is basically a solid, floating, secured, safe spot. this is not to say i never use styrofoam boxes... i do... i have a basement full of them. but i prefer them in the colder months in conjunction with heat pacs. thats what i sometimes do, and i am sure my snakes ship out secure. as shadera was happy to point out, yes i had a fatality in shipping years ago. its on fauna, i made good on it and felt like crap for a long time afterwards. i've brought it up on kingsnake twice trying to help others learn from it. it was a badly placed heat pac in a styrofoam box.

shadera, i hope you feel that this has run it's course. i am sorry you did not like the way your snakes were shipped. i get it. and that's your right. in going forward, i'll be sure to discuss shipping more closely with buyers. but as far as stating you now doubt these are hets, that's just a low blow for no other purpose than to attack me - i assure you they are what i sold them as, and i wish you great success with them.

-paul

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I think you should ship your animals properly, in an insulated box with the APROPRIATE packing materials.

 

[Shadera]

i had just gone out of my way to give a free snake due to a very minor snafu that i could have easily chosen to walk away from - so i was expecting a polite and friendly transaction.

That's the excuse you have for shipping these live animals in a cell phone box with a few pieces of cardboard and two padded envelopes to protect them? I should be grateful and keep my mouth shut? I never expected anything from you, and I sure didn't ask for it. Did I not express genuine gratitude, not say thank you? Again, the emails are ALL here for everyone to see.

the delivery. i happily concede that afternoon shipping is not smart. fact is it's generally what i do unless its late july / august or i'm shipping to fla or south cali or something along those lines... and no, it is not to save $4 as someone so nicely suggested. until i read that, i did not even know that was the monetary difference. i walk into my fedex hub and i always say "overnight afternoon delivery". i did have someone recently ask for a.m. delivery and they got a.m. delivery simply because they requested it. but no, afternoon delivery does not make a ton of sense. i see that now and if one good thing came out of this, it's that.

That is all I want, for you to have some whisp of consideration for the animals in your care.

the box. looking at pictures of my box deconstructed will look a mess. thats a fact. but it's also not reality - it is very much out of context.

Oh? Those pictures were taken as I opened the box and removed each piece. Nothing is out of context. That is how it arrived.

-grinds teeth- High road Shadi, high road.

 

[DAND]

the box. looking at pictures of my box deconstructed will look a mess. thats a fact.

Not just look, but IS a mess. Shadera was correct when she said you should be ashamed packing like that.

but it's also not reality - it is very much out of context.

And what color is the sky in your world?

 

[KNOBTAIL]

standard practices

or not, as you can see, the shipper did not feel it necessary... Contrary to whether its normal to ship next day by 10:30 am delivery, it did not occur... There is no sense in arguing the merits as we all know what a length of time can mean in a truck driving around all day, but you cannot as this thread clearly shows, that it is the shippers obligation to ship for early arrival.. The shipper should have been told, its really that simple.. The buyer sets the mechanics for how and when, and the shipper follows the information to consummate the sale.... You cannot turn around and say the shipper should have known, because its apparent he did not ! Or maybe he did not care ! Or maybe he was stupid ! , but you cannot second guess what someone is going to do...

That is why you tell them, as I do ! A styrofoam box, a cool pack if necessary, males separated from females, each animal in its own compartment, next day delivery by 10:30 am guaranteed, live delivery guaranteed, signature required or not, tracking # in advance....

come on, it just seems to make sense to me not to consider any implied method . Thats what we are dealing with here... The buyer thought ! well thats not good enough... I am not sticking up for this moron who shipped the snakes, but it could have been allot worse. Dont leave these important things unquestioned....

Make sure the shipper knows what you want to insure a safe arrival... Lets get the guess work out of the picture.

 

[jglass38]

or not, as you can see, the shipper did not feel it necessary... Contrary to whether its normal to ship next day by 10:30 am delivery, it did not occur... There is no sense in arguing the merits as we all know what a length of time can mean in a truck driving around all day, but you cannot as this thread clearly shows, that it is the shippers obligation to ship for early arrival.. The shipper should have been told, its really that simple.. The buyer sets the mechanics for how and when, and the shipper follows the information to consummate the sale.... You cannot turn around and say the shipper should have known, because its apparent he did not ! Or maybe he did not care ! Or maybe he was stupid ! , but you cannot second guess what someone is going to do...

That is why you tell them, as I do ! A styrofoam box, a cool pack if necessary, males separated from females, each animal in its own compartment, next day delivery by 10:30 am guaranteed, live delivery guaranteed, signature required or not, tracking # in advance....

come on, it just seems to make sense to me not to consider any implied method . Thats what we are dealing with here... The buyer thought ! well thats not good enough... I am not sticking up for this moron who shipped the snakes, but it could have been allot worse. Dont leave these important things unquestioned....

Make sure the shipper knows what you want to insure a safe arrival... Lets get the guess work out of the picture.

Jerry,

I respectfully disagree. The shipper is responsible for insuring the safe arrival of the animals. This is a common sense issue. If you can't do it right, don't do it. The buyer shouldn't have to say (like speaking to a little child), "Now poopsie, you must make sure you ship it Priority Overnight and use the proper packaging so the snakeys make it there safely".

The blame lies squarely on the seller in this instance. No two ways about it.

Jamie

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Jerry, I don't think I'm understanding you at all...

I don't think the seller should be shipping at all if he or she does not know or does not care about safe shipping procedures. Why wouldn't the seller be obligated to ship safely and correctly? Aren't they being paid for a product and service? It's unfair to expect a buyer to know, understand and explain in detail what the shipper should be doing. What if this had been someone receiving their first live reptile shipment and they have no experience at all on shipping reptiles? Would you then still expect them to educate the seller on how to do things properly?

 

[Shadera]

Sure I don't like it that they were shipped regular overnight, and I understand the point you're trying to make Jerry although I as well have to respectfully disagree with it. My main complaint is HOW they were packaged. If they were packaged as they should have been, as someone who's been in this hobby as long as he has should have known how to properly package, then the extra time wouldn't have been a problem at all. (And like I said before, packaging problems never popped up in his good guy threads, why did I have any reason to expect anything other than that Mr. Buckley is a competent shipper?) The packaging is the reason I complain about the shipping rate, because no thought was given as to how long these snakes would possibly spend in the back of a hot truck. There would have been NO mention of this had they arrived packaged as they should have been. With the amount of tutorials on the web about how to ship reptiles, there's no excuse for that poor packaging. And really, that's all that can be said for it. Ideally snakes should be packaged in expectation of something going wrong. What if the shipment had been delayed a day and they got to sit in a hot warehouse and died because they had no protection from the outside temps? Who here uses less than a 40 hour heat pack in the winter? I sure don't, because if the carrier messes up that snake could potentially freeze somewhere once it gives out if there's a major delay. Myself, I take the time to look at the temps along the animal's route and make the call as to whether to add heat or a cold pack or nothing at all to a box. As part of what I consider my responsibility as a seller, that buyer should have the best experience they can possibly have, and I don't expect them to line out for me in great detail how they want the animal shipped. Unless there is some special concern of course, which I willingly comply with. I asked for nothing special, just an animal to be shipped to me in a safe and proper manner.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

I am kind of glad someone brought this shipping issue up. I have seen 2 shipments recently (both snakes) arrive in nothing but a deli cup, with newspaper or packing peanuts inside a BEAT UP and REUSED cardboard box. FedEx has requirements for being certified for a reason! And this along with a few other reasons is probably why most carriers say they won't ship snakes.
Beyond safety is another concern I'd have. If you care about an animal, wouldn't you want it to be comfortable during its stressful and hot trip?
Coiled up in that little box doesn't look comfy at all and as many snakes as I've seen with spine issues, I would find that unacceptable. Most of the reputable sellers I buy from ship them in a styrofoam box for temp regulation, not necessarily for "shock" absorption. And on top of that, they usually have cushioning inside the styrofoam, like newspapers, peanuts, etc. so they can move a little. It isn't an electronic, it's a living thing.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

We all cannot

work under the impression that everything is the shippers responsibility. The shipper has his TOS, and its up to buyer at least in my estimation to address anything that will provide the safe arrival of the animal being shipped...

Common sense or not, as this is the case here, the shipper took it upon himself to use probably the worst kind of box, the worst kind of delivery method and could have really been responsible for the loss of those animals through heat exhaustion....

So what would have been the big deal for the buyer to direct some helpful information....to the seller.... A lot was taken granted here.... Its very comforting to know that for those who seem to disagree with my assessment of this situation fail to realize that the shipper felt everything was normal for him to ship as well as package the snakes the way he did... Totally unacceptable, in my estimation, but we cannot take these things for granted... This is not an isolated situation.

The BOI is full of graveyards where the shipper felt his obligation was fulfilled once he got the money, and the animals were shipped...Its apparent to me that he does not seem to care: and if he did, he would have been substantially more considerate to the buyer and moreso to the animals...

It just takes a few minutes to go over the shipping policies of how you want your shipments sent. Do not take for granted that others are as conscientious as you or myself and others ...

 

[SPJ]

What about delays?
Fed Ex and UPS could have a delay.
That packing job is not at all up to par even if everything arrives on time.
When a customer pays for an animal there should be no question as to how it is being shipped.
I don't get it. I worry the ENTIRE time a animal is in transit. How could you even think of sending an animal out with that packing job and a delivery time of that late in the day?

 

[snowgyre]

I think it was irresponsible of the buyer to post this on the BOI. This is not BOI material. I see a transaction where the buyer received snakes that may or may not have been packaged properly, and who wrote an unhappy email to the seller expressing her concerns using what was construed as inflammatory comments (ie. shame on you). The seller responded professionally considering he was obviously affronted, and even offered to make amends by having the buyer ship the animals back to him for a refund.

The situation was resolved, as far as the transaction was concerned. I see this posting as less of an actual bad business transaction and more of an incantation of the drama llama. Were the snakes improperly packaged? Perhaps, but the seller did what he could to resolve the disgruntled customer. Obviously the snakes ended up fine, since the buyer hasn't posted otherwise.

I have had several animals shipped to me improperly, and I have never posted the issue on the BOI because I managed to discreetly inform and educate the shipper without any public embarrassment. The end results were thankful shippers and improved shipping practices. Paul admits he has sent many animals using his shipping methods, and if he has an otherwise positive reputation in the business, then I doubt many (if any) animals arrived dead. I see this type of post as completely counterproductive, because now we have a seller who has been blasted by members of the fauna community for what easily could've been fixed behind the scenes and was fixed. Was it a mistake on his part? Probably, but is this kind of finger pointing and incendiary commentary necessary? I personally don't think this is productive in any way.

I am dismayed with how much self-righteous hatred I see on the BOI when a member of the reptile community stumbles in what is otherwise reputable and honorable business. I am saddened to see the BOI reduced to a Jerry Springer show.

~Vanessa Lane

 

[Twizted Paths]

In what other business is the buyer expected to tell/teach the seller how to properly package the sellers product?

That's pure

It is NOT the customer's job, it is the seller's. The customer's job is to pick out the product/animal & pay promptly the seller's job is to get the product/animal to the customer safely & promptly.

Not everyone who purchase herps is a professional or experienced hobbiest. Even if they are - I've had herps since I was a kid, I just (this year) learned how they were supposed to be shipped! It is not MY job to have to tell a supposed professional how to package my purchase!

 

[jglass38]

I think it was irresponsible of the buyer to post this on the BOI. This is not BOI material. I see a transaction where the buyer received snakes that may or may not have been packaged properly, and who wrote an unhappy email to the seller expressing her concerns using what was construed as inflammatory comments (ie. shame on you). The seller responded professionally considering he was obviously affronted, and even offered to make amends by having the buyer ship the animals back to him for a refund.

The situation was resolved, as far as the transaction was concerned. I see this posting as less of an actual bad business transaction and more of an incantation of the drama llama. Were the snakes improperly packaged? Perhaps, but the seller did what he could to resolve the disgruntled customer. Obviously the snakes ended up fine, since the buyer hasn't posted otherwise.

I have had several animals shipped to me improperly, and I have never posted the issue on the BOI because I managed to discreetly inform and educate the shipper without any public embarrassment. The end results were thankful shippers and improved shipping practices. Paul admits he has sent many animals using his shipping methods, and if he has an otherwise positive reputation in the business, then I doubt many (if any) animals arrived dead. I see this type of post as completely counterproductive, because now we have a seller who has been blasted by members of the fauna community for what easily could've been fixed behind the scenes and was fixed. Was it a mistake on his part? Probably, but is this kind of finger pointing and incendiary commentary necessary? I personally don't think this is productive in any way.

I am dismayed with how much self-righteous hatred I see on the BOI when a member of the reptile community stumbles in what is otherwise reputable and honorable business. I am saddened to see the BOI reduced to a Jerry Springer show.

~Vanessa Lane

What thread have you been reading? Certainly not this one otherwise you wouldn't have posted this. How long have you and Paul been friends? This is most definitely a BOI worthy thread. People deserve to know who to avoid in this industry.

 

[snowgyre]

I honestly don't know Paul. Regardless of what my locale says in fauna, I've been living in Georgia for the past 3 years and I'm into leopard geckos, not snakes. However, I still stand by my original comments. Perhaps we should move the BOI to the Hell section for all the good it does in helping sellers and buyers resolve conflicts? I hardly see how this is supposed to convince people improve their shipping practices. All this name calling does is incite hatred, not cooperation, eagerness, or willingness to improve.

 

[TriangleReptiles]

Since when is saying "shame on you " name calling? I thought this was handled very well by the poster. He stated facts, posted pics and told the truth. Good enough for me. I want to know when someone takes these kind of shortcuts shipping.

 

[Twizted Paths]

I think it was irresponsible of the buyer to post this on the BOI. This is not BOI material.
~Vanessa Lane

It is indeed BOI material, I don't buy from people who endanger he health of the snakes I'm purchasing.

I see a transaction where the buyer received snakes that may or may not have been packaged properly,

According to Fed Ex rules it was not. You are not allowed to use their boxes as the outer packaging and isn't Live Harmless Reptiles supposed to be the first thing you see when you open the box?

And Magical Morphs is a she

 

[jglass38]

Here are some things that are still unclear which hopefully the seller will clear up:

1. Is he breeding these pythons within the New York City city limits?

2. Is the shipper FedEx certified? If so, is the shipper aware that he is required to ship Priority Overnight as a condition of that certification?

3. Is the shipper aware of the Lacey Act and the labeling requirements for shipments? If so, why wasn't the box labeled with Live Harmless Reptiles, the scientific name, common name and quantity?

 

[DAND]

I think it was irresponsible of the buyer to post this on the BOI. This is not BOI material.

You must have the same color sky in your world as Paul does.

 

[David Reid]

I do not really see why this should have been a BOI thread either. Buyer: Email the seller and tell him you are unhappy with the way your snakes were shipped. Seller: Take note, learn from it, and go on.

I think way too many people just like to see their "name in lights," and post borderline BOI worthy threads to get an "at a boy" from the groupies.

I am not saying that Paul did an expert job shipping, what I am saying is, some things are better said in email.