Bad Guy Paul Moyer of Monster Reptiles in PA

[reticguy76]

Exactly my point. Without video of how the snake was acting and a true accurate history of the snake days, weeks, and even months before death, chances of diagnosing toxication from the pest strip is pretty much non-existent. Even by now, natural toxins released into (and out of) the body, will produce increased che (cholinesterase) levels. So, unless we have accurate history and actions of the snake, it is likely a necropsy by now will show us very little to nothing (as the organs and other "innards" have also been breaking down, which hurts chances of other diagnostics through necrospy, also assuming the snake hasnt been frozen or even refrigerated to help preserve the snake and the insides as best as possible)

 

[AbsoluteApril]

As Joe already mentioned, Jesus said in the vids that he disposed of the body immediately so there was never even a chance for a necropsy.

There were so many issues with statements made in the vid... Jesus didn't understand what the pathology dept. was telling him. From my expierence, pathology departments will not do a necropsy without it coming through a vet. What Jesus completely overlooked is that any vet can send it off, they don't have to have seen the snake alive prior.

 

[Fangthane]

LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

How about reigning in the attaboys and various back-slapping, just a bit. You're kinda acting like you've won something and that there's anything in this thread to be particularly happy about.

I'm as glad to see the Banned Brothers gone as anyone else is. However, all their douchebaggery aside, there's still the very real possibility that it was the toxicity of the pest strip that did lead to the retic's death. They're clearly toxic, and direct contact for extended periods of time is clearly not a very good idea. It very well could be the culprit.

The fact that some of you have been lucky enough to avoid adverse effects while using them does nothing to negate the inherent dangers. Drunk drivers skate by without consequences every day. Does that make it a good idea? Truth is, none of us KNOW exactly what killed that snake. I just don't see much in this thread that's worth getting too excited about.

 

[Wiggles92]

My biggest question here is why would you dispose of the body ASAP? Any seller is going to require proof that the snake is indeed dead after all; disposing of it that soon makes the circumstances that lead to its death seem much murkier.

 

[Wiggles92]

Nevermind, the video showing it dead is working now; I couldn't get it to work before.

 

[EdwardK]

\

I'm as glad to see the Banned Brothers gone as anyone else is. However, all their douchebaggery aside, there's still the very real possibility that it was the toxicity of the pest strip that did lead to the retic's death. They're clearly toxic, and direct contact for extended periods of time is clearly not a very good idea. It very well could be the culprit.

The reason I posted the MSDS is that neurological issues are quite typical of poisoning with dichlorvos and there was no mention of any issues such as slow or inability to right itself, issues with moving etc, star gazing etc, at the show, during or after the transfer to it's cage or up until the time of death. I don't know about how they do thier transactions, but I would certainly have inspected the snake (either before I left the trade location or once I got home) and probably at least once more within the next 24 hours). Overt toxicity with dichlorvos should have shown up during that time frame with indications of neurological issues of one type or another. So while it is very difficult at this point to rule out poisoning by the pest strip, it doesn't appear to be the likely culprit...

Some comments,

Ed

 

[Snake-Queen]

At this point all is being done is

Everything is speculation at this point. Jesus disposed of the body. So no necropsy, no evidence why the snake died, nothing. This thread was pointless from the very start because he disposed of the body too early. Any breeder who has had a $3000 sale die in 2 days is going to request a necropsy. Should the snake have died? No. Does anyone know why it died? No.

So any thing else is

 

[Lucille]

This thread was pointless from the very start because he disposed of the body too early.

I respectfully disagree that this thread was pointless. While you are correct that the lack of a necropsy (and a snake to do it on) makes any ultimate answer not possible, the thread showcased both buyer and seller, and how they approached this problem.
To me, that was of value, and I ask you to consider that future buyers may gain from this thread, not from the few facts available, but from the posts showing how each of the parties might handle themselves in future transactions.

 

[leaveittoweaver]

I respectfully disagree that this thread was pointless. While you are correct that the lack of a necropsy (and a snake to do it on) makes any ultimate answer not possible, the thread showcased both buyer and seller, and how they approached this problem.
To me, that was of value, and I ask you to consider that future buyers may gain from this thread, not from the few facts available, but from the posts showing how each of the parties might handle themselves in future transactions.

Although at this point all speculation is pretty pointless. All bases seem to have been covered as far as questions asked and possible explanations presented. But we'll simply never know the answer.

But like you said, what we CAN take from this is an opinion on the buyer and the seller based off how they both have handled themselves throughout this fiasco.

 

[Pasodama]

an animal was picked up buy a seller at a ahow and it died 2 days later now if its not from the pest strip there had to be an underlying issue that was going on way before jesus got her, and a snake especialy an adult will not die 2 days later while being contained in a prime enclosier and prime temps if it was 10° hotter then 86° 2 days earlier, if that was the case allot of people would have dead animals after the show.

At 96 degrees, perhaps, perhaps not. For some snakes, that ~is~ too hot and will kill them. Short term, for a Retic, perhaps not.
However, we do not know the exact temps, that the snake was subjected to, after purchase and during transport. Nor much else, re. transit, for that matter.
In a tote, and depending on certain conditions, the temps could have, easily, gone over 96 degrees.
Also, I wanted to point out that preexisting/underlying, issues do not need to exist for a snake to die, days (or more) later, due to having been exposed to extreme heat or cold. Extreme heat, and freezing cold, ~can~ cause damage that does not, immediately, kill a snake but is damage that the snake, eventually (days, or even more, later), succumbs to.

Simply wanted to address the above point/s.
I am not arguing that this (extreme heat) was the cause of death since, at this point, there are a handful of possibilities and we will ~never~ really know the actual cause. Plus, I think that, beyond speculation, this thread/case is at an impasse (fault could lie with the vendor, the buyer, or a combination of both).

 

[Snake-Queen]

I respectfully disagree that this thread was pointless. While you are correct that the lack of a necropsy (and a snake to do it on) makes any ultimate answer not possible, the thread showcased both buyer and seller, and how they approached this problem.
To me, that was of value, and I ask you to consider that future buyers may gain from this thread, not from the few facts available, but from the posts showing how each of the parties might handle themselves in future transactions.

I see your point.

My point really is that all this speculation is getting us no where.

I would never deal with the OP & if I was into retics I might buy from the seller.

However the debate on how it died is pointless. We will never know.

 

[CODbeast]

I have been to jesus's house, as I bought one of his het amel suntigers. His snakes are clean and well taken care of. I would hope so people would have common sense, and use it to see the truth in what Im about to say.... So how do we know it's not his husbandry or environment that killed the snake...that's easy to answer....common sense would tell us it wasn't that, because he has other retics thriving AND reproducing in it. No healthy snake is just going to drop dead in 48 hours from being in an optimal setting.... Now i would hope that the people here would know that no animal would thrive and reproduce in a setting that's not optimal for it to do so. So that's one down.....Next i see people talking about overheating. People, the temps that day was 86 degress.....86 degree weather would not cause a retic to overheat....How do i know this....because my retic's hotspot is around 90 degress, and they are doing perfect.....and trying to argue that would be like arguing what weights more, a pound of feathers, or a pound of rocks....they are both the same weight, so 86 degress is just that, 86 degress. So now that common sense has eliminated those 2, we are left with only 2 other possible reasons.....And that would be the exposed pest stripe that was in direct contact with the snake, or some underlying health problem....Both of which are the sellers responsibility....If the snake was poisoned, then its on the seller. If the seller sold or traded a sick animal, even if he didn't know, its still on the seller to make it right. And if the seller was so adamant about wanting to know, then he should've gotten the necropsy. It's just common sense people....you don't have to get shot to know it hurts like hell, do you...... And of course a scammer is going to say the snake was healthy, why would he say otherwise...lol....Just look at all the threads here about people getting sick and diseased animals, and the first thing out of the scammer's mouth is "It was healthy when it was here".....Sure it was buddy.....that's like going to a prison and asking all the criminals, who's guilty....let them tell it, they're all innocent..

 

[jandsreptiles]

How about reigning in the attaboys and various back-slapping, just a bit. You're kinda acting like you've won something and that there's anything in this thread to be particularly happy about.

I'm as glad to see the Banned Brothers gone as anyone else is. However, all their douchebaggery aside, there's still the very real possibility that it was the toxicity of the pest strip that did lead to the retic's death. They're clearly toxic, and direct contact for extended periods of time is clearly not a very good idea. It very well could be the culprit.

The fact that some of you have been lucky enough to avoid adverse effects while using them does nothing to negate the inherent dangers. Drunk drivers skate by without consequences every day. Does that make it a good idea? Truth is, none of us KNOW exactly what killed that snake. I just don't see much in this thread that's worth getting too excited about.

Dan, slow your roll just a bit bro. Those post you quoted were just me simply saying I like what the person posted. No one said anything about winning or losing anything infact if you would read all my post I stated the only loss was the poor snakes life. Take your time and read before you go assuming what someone meant. I did all I could to help the OP. There is a confirmed location that will do a necropsy posted in this thread thanks to me. Not my fault the OP or his brother disposed of the carcass. If you must know I think we all have won the battle now that the Rojas brothers are banned. Not that I was ever in a contest with either. As far as your knowledge of the pest strips, I assume it is based on you sole experience with them otherwise as I stated it is simply your opinion and I already posted what opinions are like. But I am sure you didn't read that post either.

 

[jandsreptiles]

At this point all is being done is

Everything is speculation at this point. Jesus disposed of the body. So no necropsy, no evidence why the snake died, nothing. This thread was pointless from the very start because he disposed of the body too early. Any breeder who has had a $3000 sale die in 2 days is going to request a necropsy. Should the snake have died? No. Does anyone know why it died? No.

So any thing else is

 

[jandsreptiles]

I have been to jesus's house, as I bought one of his het amel suntigers. His snakes are clean and well taken care of. I would hope so people would have common sense, and use it to see the truth in what Im about to say.... So how do we know it's not his husbandry or environment that killed the snake...that's easy to answer....common sense would tell us it wasn't that, because he has other retics thriving AND reproducing in it. No healthy snake is just going to drop dead in 48 hours from being in an optimal setting.... Now i would hope that the people here would know that no animal would thrive and reproduce in a setting that's not optimal for it to do so. So that's one down.....Next i see people talking about overheating. People, the temps that day was 86 degress.....86 degree weather would not cause a retic to overheat....How do i know this....because my retic's hotspot is around 90 degress, and they are doing perfect.....and trying to argue that would be like arguing what weights more, a pound of feathers, or a pound of rocks....they are both the same weight, so 86 degress is just that, 86 degress. So now that common sense has eliminated those 2, we are left with only 2 other possible reasons.....And that would be the exposed pest stripe that was in direct contact with the snake, or some underlying health problem....Both of which are the sellers responsibility....If the snake was poisoned, then its on the seller. If the seller sold or traded a sick animal, even if he didn't know, its still on the seller to make it right. And if the seller was so adamant about wanting to know, then he should've gotten the necropsy. It's just common sense people....you don't have to get shot to know it hurts like hell, do you...... And of course a scammer is going to say the snake was healthy, why would he say otherwise...lol....Just look at all the threads here about people getting sick and diseased animals, and the first thing out of the scammer's mouth is "It was healthy when it was here".....Sure it was buddy.....that's like going to a prison and asking all the criminals, who's guilty....let them tell it, they're all innocent..

James,

I have been to Pauls house and his snakes are all thriving and breeding as well so there goes your theory about that.

Also funny how you just joined the forum and your very first post is after Angel/Jesus were banned. That is a little strange to say the least but let's see what the other members think. Well what do you guys think? Strange? Coincidence?

 

[jandsreptiles]

and trying to argue that would be like arguing what weights more, a pound of feathers, or a pound of rocks....they are both the same weight, so 86 degress is just that, 86 degress.

Hmm where did I hear that same example used recently.............................ohhhh I know Jesus used that same exact wording in his beat the system youtube post that was posted by his now banned brother for you guessed it breaking the rules. Something fishy here guys!!!!!!

 

[Fangthane]

I have been to jesus's house

And you just happened to find your way to this thread and decided to jump in and defend Jesus. What coincidental timing. I'm sure you weren't put up to it. But, either way, that's irrelevant.

Next i see people talking about overheating. People, the temps that day was 86 degress.....86 degree weather would not cause a retic to overheat....How do i know this....because my retic's hotspot is around 90 degress, and they are doing perfect.....

You seem to like to throw the concept of 'common sense' around quite a bit. I find that ironic since your simplistic and self-serving analysis of the situation shows a marked lack of sense.

Your theory might hold some water if the retic happened to have been transported in a mesh or wire cage where a state of dynamic thermal equilibrium would be easily maintained with the ambient tempterature in the car. However, as I understand it, it was kept in a plastic Rubbermaid-like tote. This is an enclosed space with a very greatly decreased amount of air flow. In the likely event that this tote was exposed to direct sunlight (even filtered through glass), it'd continue to build up heat which would have a diminished capacity to dissipate due to the lack of thorough ventilation.

Those of us that actually employ some degree of common sense concede that we don't KNOW exactly what killed the snake. It could be heat, exposure to toxins, an underlying illness or any combination of these factors. But to just pop in here and catagorically state there's no possible way it was anything other than a cause that can be directly blamed on the seller is purely self-serving fiction.

If the seller sold or traded a sick animal, even if he didn't know, its still on the seller to make it right. And if the seller was so adamant about wanting to know, then he should've gotten the necropsy.

It's ludicrous to buy into the idea that there was absolutely NO VETS in the state of PA that could/would do a necropsy on the retic. That theory has long since been shot all to hell and back.

Why should be seller be responsible for arranging the necropsy? Once the trade was agreed to, and the snakes changed hands, it wasn't his animal anymore. Until it's proven that the seller was responsible for the snake's death, he doesn't owe them anything. In my eyes, recourse is defered until culpability is established, and forfeited when it can't be established. For whatever reason, a necropsy never happened. So, despite what you mistakenly call 'common sense' there's no proof, either way.

And of course a scammer is going to say the snake was healthy, why would he say otherwise...lol....Just look at all the threads here about people getting sick and diseased animals, and the first thing out of the scammer's mouth is "It was healthy when it was here".....Sure it was buddy.....that's like going to a prison and asking all the criminals, who's guilty....let them tell it, they're all innocent..

That concept can be twisted to suit either side, at need. It serves no purpose. Of course Angel/Jesus are going to act like the innocent victims of circumstance. Like it or not, your analogy cuts both ways.

Let's not forget something. Angel clearly stated that he had previous knowledge of the dangers of the pest strips in question, but he went through with the transaction anyway. He wasn't unaware that they were being used, and that they're potentially dangerous. There was an abundantly apparent risk from the get-go, which he blithely accepted. If we're ASSuming that it was the pest strip that killed the snake, doesn't his own obvious disregard for and acceptance of that risk make him equally responsible?

 

[jandsreptiles]

And you just happened to find your way to this thread and decided to jump in and defend Jesus. What coincidental timing. I'm sure you weren't put up to it. But, either way, that's irrelevant.

You seem to like to throw the concept of 'common sense' around quite a bit. I find that ironic since your simplistic and self-serving analysis of the situation shows a marked lack of sense.

Your theory might hold some water if the retic happened to have been transported in a mesh or wire cage where a state of dynamic thermal equilibrium would be easily maintained with the ambient tempterature in the car. However, as I understand it, it was kept in a plastic Rubbermaid-like tote. This is an enclosed space with a very greatly decreased amount of air flow. In the likely event that this tote was exposed to direct sunlight (even filtered through glass), it'd continue to build up heat which would have a diminished capacity to dissipate due to the lack of thorough ventilation.

Those of us that actually employ some degree of common sense concede that we don't KNOW exactly what killed the snake. It could be heat, exposure to toxins, an underlying illness or any combination of these factors. But to just pop in here and catagorically state there's no possible way it was anything other than a cause that can be directly blamed on the seller is purely self-serving fiction.



It's ludicrous to buy into the idea that there was absolutely NO VETS in the state of PA that could/would do a necropsy on the retic. That theory has long since been shot all to hell and back.

Why should be seller be responsible for arranging the necropsy? Once the trade was agreed to, and the snakes changed hands, it wasn't his animal anymore. Until it's proven that the seller was responsible for the snake's death, he doesn't owe them anything. In my eyes, recourse is defered until culpability is established, and forfeited when it can't be established. For whatever reason, a necropsy never happened. So, despite what you mistakenly call 'common sense' there's no proof, either way.

That concept can be twisted to suit either side, at need. It serves no purpose. Of course Angel/Jesus are going to act like the innocent victims of circumstance. Like it or not, your analogy cuts both ways.

Let's not forget something. Angel clearly stated that he had previous knowledge of the dangers of the pest strips in question, but he went through with the transaction anyway. He wasn't unaware that they were being used, and that they're potentially dangerous. There was an abundantly apparent risk from the get-go, which he blithely accepted. If we're ASSuming that it was the pest strip that killed the snake, doesn't his own obvious disregard for and acceptance of that risk make him equally responsible?

Very well said Dan

 

[CODbeast]

Please direct me to where Angel stated he clearly knew the danger of the pest strip before receiving the snake.....

 

[Lucille]

Also funny how you just joined the forum and your very first post is after Angel/Jesus were banned.

After Angel unethically circumvented his brother's ban by posting the video, it would not surprise me in the least to see them create new accounts.