Petco: Who Breeds for them?

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I have lived in the York area for 15 years. Their is one PetCo in the area on Rt. 30 next to Old Country Buffet. I couldn't mistake it for any other. The one in Hanover is on Eisenhower Dr next to Pier One. Again, I couldn't mistake it for another. If ill fish are quarantined. Why did I count 4 cichlids with a severe case of body fungus in a single tank 2 weeks ago when I was there? Why did I see a half dozen misc. mollies with fin and tail rot? I also saw 2 disgustingly anorexic leos on the sales floor, at which my younger sister pointed at them and asked why they didn't look like my hatchlings. Don't get me wrong though, it can't all be managements fault. The girl who was their at the time didn't have the slightest knowledge as to what was wrong with the fish, or showed any interest in treatment. When I mean sales floor, I mean customers have access to the area WITHOUT supervision. Those fledglings really shouldn't, in my opinion, be accesible to customers until they are well on their way to being weaned. Socialization is a great thing for a young birds, but in a controlled environment with experienced individuals.

Wanda, the SuperPetz in York has had the SPCA called on them many times. Their animals have been confinscated. It hasn't stopped them from being in business or selling the animals they have. I walked in there about a year ago and saw 4 adult ball pythons in the space of about 10 gallons covered in ticks and stuck shed. I spoke with the manager, who was indifferent. I contacted the SPCA, and the animals disappeared. I do not know what happened to them, and I haven't been back to the store.

 

[ShannanD25]

Ive been in York all my life, 'bout 30 years now. Granted I spent some away in the Air Force. Maybe we just see things differently. I don't inspect fish very closely, I've just noted that their tanks "look" clean, especially when compared to other local petstores. I've talked with Sarah in aquatics and she was telling me about how they clean their tanks and showing me the neat little gadgets they have. I am always going by the Leos to see if there is one I just have to have....I've never seen one missing a tail or anything. Sarah had pulled one and had it in the back because it wouldn't eat....She showed me it and we were talking about what to do. I know how picky they are with their little furry critters as my friend works at the vet Petco uses. Their bird room is supervised by Mary( I think), who has birds at home and is a bigger bird fanatic then me or my mother...and for my mother to comment that any bird room in a pet store is great is incrediably rare. Maybe we go on different days or soemthing. Their dragons are always alert and active. The anoles have their talils. Sometimes it looks to good. Even I have Leos with dropped tails.
I wish I could keep my critter tanks as spotless as theirs....Though they still have the stupid heat rocks....and I haven't seen Sarah in awhile...she knew her stuff about every aquatic/reptile! hope she is still there.

I haven't heard of the SPCA coming in. That would have been in the news. If there is a problem with an animal it is taken to the vet...I mean they paid $700 for a guinea pig! And that isn't an I hear through the grapevine comment. My friend nursed her back to health after an operation to amputate a leg, fell in love with it, but had to give her back because Petco paid $700 for her and wanted her back...

I say a third person should go visit and tell us their opinion. To me Petco is one of the few, very few, good petstores and I list that opinion on my website.

 

[humpbacks1962]

SPCA, regardless, is NOT the government agency inspecting and issuing permits to sell animals in your state! They're probably busier filming the next Animal Planet episode confiscating 300 feral cats and operating on Fido for adoption.

I hear the same: gripe, gripe, poor animals abused, oh they have come already, nobody cares, why should I? gripe, gripe...

Petco is a trustworthy facility, overall. More important, subject to inspections and certifications or else. Your chances of getting a healthy animal are higher if you buy from a facility like that, than if you buy from an annonymous breeder who may keep theirs stacked up in drawers that may not even be cleaned daily, calling them by numbers, if anything.

And the truth is, if anyone takes animals out like you claim, they could not be back to resell anything as if nothing happened. If that is the situation, sister have you got a chance here to immortalize your fight for a noble cause!

Wanda

PS: I visited your website:eek3: Under all pop up windows and in between associates links, I did not find anywhere pictures of *your* breeding and husbandry facilities. It is OK for Petco to offer nice, healthy animals at low prices

 

[KelliH]

Your chances of getting a healthy animal are higher if you buy from a facility like that, than if you buy from an annonymous breeder who may keep theirs stacked up in drawers that may not even be cleaned daily, calling them by numbers, if anything.

Where do you think Petco gets their leopard geckos from? They get them from a few large mega breeders that produce tens of thousands of leopard geckos every year. I have heard through the herp grapevine that one of those "breeders" froze (ie. euthanized) more than 30,000 yes that's right, 30,000 leos last year. Yet you think one's chances of ending up with a healthy animal are higher if you buy from a Petco, rather than from a smaller breeder like Shannan or a mid sized breeder like myself? That's just wrong!

Oh yeah, I keep my leopard geckos stacked up in drawers, and I only clean twice a week. I even call some of the babies I produce by numbers. But you need to think about something: if it weren't for breeders like myself and others, there would be no leopard geckos available in the pet trade at all today. Just think about it for awhile.

 

[ShannanD25]

Good point Kelli!

Petco does by from huge breeders. To me, huge breeders have less time to pay attention to their critters while a not as huge breeder or small breeder has the time to spend on the care of the critters. These huge breeders do it for the money and all that matters is the numbers. But to me, personally, I do it cause I love the little critters....except when they bite

However, at least Petco(depending on management and staff) provides a very clean and *almost* proper setup to give the guys a chance. I'd say Petco is your best choice out of Petstores but your overall best choice is to buy from a reputable breeder. It is true, you don't know the conditions their Leos are raised in. But a picture tells a thousand words, and so does one's reputation. IF you are worried that what you see is not what you are going to get ask the Breeder to send you a picture of the Leo on today's newspaper(so you know it is current by looking at the date). An unhealthy Leo is going to be obvious, or look up their name on the BOI. Ask around.

No Breeder is perfect.I'm not. But what matters most is their love of their hobby, not the love of the money and numbers....

 

[Storm55]

Rebuttal

Your chances of getting a healthy animal are higher if you buy from a facility like that, than if you buy from an annonymous breeder who may keep theirs stacked up in drawers that may not even be cleaned daily, calling them by numbers, if anything.

I also completely disagree with this statement...

As a general rule, you will find that most smaller breeders got their start because they enjoy keeping and working with these animals. In my opinion, the majority of the large scale breeders work primarily for the money. Small breeders, or as I prefer to call us, "hobby breeders" because thats what we are work with much smaller groups of animals. Due to this, we are able to provide each animal with individual attention and care. Our animals usually have names and backgrounds that we know well. Many of us even know detailed information on each and every geckos' habits and personality. Do you really think any of these large facilities can tell you whether or not their prize carrottail breeder prefers mealies to crickets, enjoys eating from their hand, or likes pooping on top of their hide? I don't think so.

The point that I am trying to make is that while the small hobby breeders may only be run by one or two people, those people have dedicated their time and lives to these animals that they love so much. They go to any lengths to provide the best care for the geckos and their babies that buyers will eventually own because they take pride in the animals that they work so hard to make healthy and happy.

Of course in any hobby, you will come across bad apples, but speaking for myself, I would always choose to buy from a small breeder over a large breeder because I believe that their animals as a whole are treated better, given more attention and care, and regarded as the facinating and beautiful creatures that they are.

To my fellow small hobbyist breeders, I respect each one of you. These wonderful animals deserve to be cherished as pets and given the best attention and care. Kudos to you all who put your animals first before anything else. I don't eat before my "kids" do, and their enclosures are priority over my living space. I always try to remember that these guys rely on me 100% so it is my responsibility to give them everything that they need when they need it. I bend over backwards for my animals and I am darn proud to be their personal servant! In return, they light up my life with their bright eyes and their big gecko smiles! I'm such a sap when it comes to my kids!!!

 

[Karmic]

I'm not a breeder, but I guess I must be a bad owner! I don't clean my leos cages every day. And I even have 2 females I've had for 6 months, that I don't have names for yet either. I just call them both "sweetie". I guess they could be Sweetie1 and Sweetie2.

Personally, I prefer to buy from a breeder who participates on these boards, rather than some miscellaneous classified ad. But that's what the BOI is for. If your unsure of someone's trustworthiness, check 'em out first.

And I agree that the chain store's animals come from "gecko mills". Any facility that treats their animals as nothing more than potential money that must be sold in huge lots, is not too terribly concerned if they are healthy or not. These sick animals that end up in the pet stores should have been noticed before they were ever shipped out. Instead their health is stressed even more by shipping, and then in most cases being kept in an inappropriate environment until they either die or the uninformed buyer takes it home.

Every pet store and every gecko is an individual case, but i think I'll stick to buying from the hobby breeders.

 

[humpbacks1962]

WHOA!Let the flamin' begin!

But while you're at it, re-read the post. If your animals are dirty, clean your facilities before you complain about public, inspected facilities. If they are clean and your animals beat Petco's standards of quality, pat yourself in the back for it. If you found a trustworthy breeder, post a positive somewhere.
If so-and-so sells mistreated geckos to Petco then report it!
Call PETA, they have plenty of volunteers with free time to chase down herds of abused geckos heading out to sales tanks

Bottomline: Take action rather than post mere gripes. That was my point all along, Jeez!

As far as I am concerned, the freaking Petco tanks I have seen are cleaner than many breeders' boxes. Agree to disagree if you wish, but it does not change the fact that one is licensed and inspected while the other is not. It is not bashing breeders, dear.

That is way fftopic:

 

[KelliH]

Hi Wanda- No need to get upset. I didn't. I just wanted to bring up some points about Petco and the leopard geckos they sell. That's all, no hard feelings

Here's a few of my leos. They live in sweater boxes in a rack system. I love my geckos and I baby them bigtime. Most of the other smaller breeders I know are the same way.

And I will say it again, you are MUCH better off buying from a reputable breeder than Petco.

 

[ShannanD25]

Talk about some junk in the trunk.....Those are nice fat girls/boys Kelli!!!!

 

[humpbacks1962]

Hey, no probs here.

Chubby muffins you have! Thanks for the pics

Wanda

 

[Xelda]

Wanda, no matter how clean the facilities look, those petstores have a constant influx of animals that don't get quarantined BEFORE going out on the sales floor. It doesn't really do much good to the rest of the animals if a sick-looking one gets removed to the storage room after being on the floor. They've already possibly infected their cagemates and the enclosure itself. Considering the quick turnaround some of these stores have, it's possible these animals get sold before they have a chance to show symptoms. The new geckos I see at my local Petcos and Petsmarts are just a few days old, so I highly doubt they've been quarantined long enough. Sometimes it takes as long as 3 months for ANY signs of illness to show.

In addition to inadequate quarantine, I see different species moving from one cage to another during various parts of the year at my local Petcos & Petsmarts. I highly doubt that the employees spend their time thoroughly sterilizing the tanks before moving the species. This also adds to the spread of pathogens, as what is considered part of normal gut fauna for one species can totally devastate another animal.

Take bearded dragons for example. Many people consider all sorts of stuff, such as coccidia, to be acceptable for their GI tract, but the same doesn't hold true for geckos. The Leopard Gecko Manual spends an entire page talking about what a problem coccidia presents for leos. All it takes is for a cricket to eat the beardie's poop then wander over to the gecko enclosure to spread the disease. Or even for an employee to handle the geckos after cleaning out the beardie enclosure without washing hands in between. Or moving the geckos to the beardie enclosure without proper cage-cleaning. Or (egads!) housing the beardies and leos together, which petstores will do.

I would much rather buy from small time breeders who take the time to quarantine their animals BEFORE exposing them to their current colony, who keep their geckos on paper towels not sand, who do regular fecal exams to spot check their colony, who can give you a thorough explanation of your animals' parents and their parents' parents, and who want to hear regular updates about the animals you've bought from them. Many of these breeders will welcome you to check out their facilities if you're located near them, so make arrangements to pay them a visit! I've been able to do this a couple of times, and it's a lot of fun to see so many animals.

 

[humpbacks1962]

Xelda, does not matter how anyone butters it up: All stores (namely Petco, Petsmart) aren't filthier than breeders' quarters and all breeders' aren't cleaner than stores.

So there goes another for fanatical generalizations. Some breeders benefit from the "homebred image" and some stores may suffer from the old puppy mill stories

 

[ShannanD25]

So, since Petsmart cleans everyday, but Kelli doesn't, that automatically makes Petsmarts Leos healthier and better? Petco/petsmart may have super clean facilities and have Leos that appear healthy but I personally would rahter buy from Kelli or any other reputable breeder. I feel like there is a much better chance that the Leo is healthy and from good stock- not just a number from a mega producer. But I will admit I buy from Petco when the urge for a $19.99 PA hits. But I also realize that I am taking a chance with it being healthy. Just because those stores are inspected and appear clean does not mean their stock is healthy. There are times Leos come in and are gone within a few days.....that is not time enough to even see a problem.

I do support this local Petco though, they seem to care and try to do the right thing- as do most reputable breeders....

 

[Xelda]

Xelda, does not matter how anyone butters it up: All stores (namely Petco, Petsmart) aren't filthier than breeders' quarters and all breeders' aren't cleaner than stores.

I didn't say ALL breeders are cleaner than ALL stores. I'm saying you'd be very hard-pressed to prove to me that ANY petstore is parasite-free, whereas the parasite/disease risk gets reduced with breeders who actually do regular testing and deworming as well as regular cleaning and disinfecting. Maybe you need to talk to a veterinarian about some of these health issues I brought up. I wasn't "buttering up" anything but addressing real problems that occur quite frequently.

 

[humpbacks1962]

So, since Petsmart cleans everyday, but Kelli doesn't, that automatically makes Petsmarts Leos healthier and better?

I'm saying you'd be very hard-pressed to prove to me that ANY petstore is parasite-free

I get the feeling I've been on this thread too long, and common sense does not get through

 

[ShannanD25]

No Wanda,
I think you chose the wrong site to come to to bash breeders, considering this site is used by many good, reputable breeders. If you honeslty believe all breeders are nothing but Leo farms with dirty conditions then we won't change your mind.

I'm sorry that you have such a bad opinion of Breeders. Maybe you had a bad experience with one. I can say there are great people here with healthy Leos that they love. Not dirty Leo farmers.....

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I too must be a horrible breeder because I keep my animals in plastic rack systems (Snake Shacks to be exact, I'm very happy with them) and only clean them 2-3 times a week.

PS: I visited your website:eek3: Under all pop up windows and in between associates links, I did not find anywhere pictures of *your* breeding and husbandry facilities. B]

I'm sorry, you weren't flaming any small breeders??? What's your comment mean then on a website I haven't touched in over a year (due to the fact I'm creating another via Dreamweaver)? I think you just need to back down and keep quiet. You've offended a number of people here.

 

[beardielvr]

I have to agree. Small or medium breeders are the only way to go. I went into a Petco a week or so ago. They had GROWN Leos in with hatchlings. The poor little things were missing tails, toes, and a few were missing whole feet! Even my local Mom And Pop type Pet Store has Leos in bad conditions. I would buy from a small breeder in a heartbeat! Most of the people here on the Leo board are breeders, whether they are large or small. Granted, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but you shouldn't come onto a board and start attacking small, medium breeders because you think pet stores have better animals. If you think they are great, than just buy from them. Don't buy from the breeders.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Wanda:
You posted that Petco sells their animals at reasonable prices?

The Petco I've been to surely doesn't have reasonable prices. They had emaciated baby ball pythons for $149.99. You can buy these from the importers in Florida for around $10. I've been to a facility in FL that imports animals and they had hundreds of BPs. They took each animal and placed it in a lunch bag with a fuzzy mouse and stapled the bag shut. The next day all the animals that ate are priced at about $20. All the animals that didn't eat are labeld nonfeeders and priced very low, like $8-$10 so they can move them before they die. Those balls were in the same shape the balls that Petco had for sale for $149.99.

There were teeny baby African Cichlids with ich for $12.99.
Mali uromastyx in a tank at 75° for $99.99.
Normal leopard geckoes for $80.00 housed with tokay, white spot, golden and a few other geckoes I can't remember which were all $20 and up. All but the leopards are obviously wild caught and very cheap to buy from the importers.

Parent raised and not tame peachfaced lovebirds for $89.00.

None of these prices are low or even reasonable for this area. A mom & pop store up the street has many of these same animals for far less and they know what kind of habitat to keep these animals in whereas Petco has no idea.

Oh and as for your repeated comment about everyone complaining but no one doing anything, I spoke to the manager on several occasions and even took him care sheets on the malis. He didn't give a crap.

I reported them to the USDA several times. I have no idea what was done, if anything. I don't even know if they're USDA certified, the person I talked to wouldn't or couldn't tell me. They certainly didn't have any USDA regulated animals like hedgehogs or sugar gliders so they're probably not USDA regulated.

Exactly what agency "regulates and inspects" these stores? I'll call immediately.

As for their cages being clean, they don't feed their animals so no food=no poop, very easy to clean.

Karen