First- quotes from the petition. Then quotes from this thread.
From the petition-
I am a concerned bearded dragon owner and handler. I have been caring for bearded dragons for a number of years and I would like to express some concerns on practices that I have witnessed PETCO using in their husbandry and care of bearded dragons that not only myself, but a number of other beardie owners feel are incorrect and would like to see adjusted
The phrase "a number" is ambiguous- One... is "a number" Thirty minutes represented as a fraction of a longer measurement of time is "a number" and given the use in the above statement, my first impression is that the author is aware of exactly how insignifigant their "numbers" are and deliberately kept things vague. This automatically begins to invalidate the credibility of the author and, as such, the value of the remaining complaints.
I have been an avid researcher over the past few years and have been keeping as up to date as possible on the changes in the standards of care that have taken place in regards to bearded dragon husbandry.
Again meaningless. Without supplying more substantial credentials, the quality of any research- and thus any conclusions- the author has arrived at are unknowns. Given that the phrasing of a formalized complaint on the part of a more experienced, educated and credible individual would eliminate any ambiguity, it's again clear that the credibility and knowledge of the author does not exceed a certain point of expertise.
I was very disheartened to see on my last visit that the baby beardies were being kept on calci-sand which has been linked to causing major impactions especially in young bearded dragons. I truly believe that no baby or juvenile bearded dragon should be kept on particle substrates of any kind in order to reduce the risk of impaction.
Debateable at absolute best. I myself do not favor calci-sand because the marketing of the product is signifigantly misleading with regards to it's digestability and value however... That is only indirectly linked to the issue the author is raising about impaction, the causes for which and appropriate preventative measures for are far larger than substrate choice alone.
I also made notice that there was no food of any kind in the tank.
Impossible to draw a signifigant conclusion from. The author does not stipulate sufficient details about their visit to determine if this is truly a negative situation in need of the attention of the corporation or not. A single visit is statistically insignifigant to begin with, this is compounded by the lack of information from which a reader can determine the circumstances surrounding the situation which was observed. What time of day was it that their visit took place? On which day or which month and year, to which Petco location? Was this concern raised at the time with store employees? What was their response?
Obviously if the animals were left without food for their entire stay at the store, there would be an issue. However there are numerous probable reasons which might explain the observation made by the author and invalidate the use of this point in her argument. If she entered the store as or shortly after it opened, it may have been a case of an employee who was busy with other animal care having not placed fresh food into the enclosure yet. If the animals were under any kind of precautionary or needed medical treatment, the diet they had been offered the day before, the current temperature of the enclosure and numerous other factors may all have contributed to her observation without becoming a damning factor.
The lighting in the tank was also in my opinion incorrect.
Without knowing the extent of the education and experience of the author, their "opinion" on a subject which can and should be approached analytically is utterly devoid of meaning.
There was an infrared heat bulb in the tank instead of a bright white basking bulb that is the current standard that many care sheets advise should be used.
This statement is ill informed at best and shows a startling lack of understanding about agamid physiology. In addition to this, the sources for the "information" are not cited and thus cannot be independantly judged on their merits. Any jackhole with a computer and a phone line can write a "care sheet" and post it online. It does not logically follow that the information contained therein is accurate or should be followed.
There was a uvb bulb, I don't know the exact specs on it however I do know that the beardies couldn't get within the 6-8 inch proximity that all fluorescent uvb bulbs require for proper exposure
Another ill informed statement that shows a lack of understanding about light- what it is, what it does for the animals and how it can be said to be manipulated. The blanket statement about flourescent bulbs is phrased as an absolute. As an absolute, it's blatantly incorrect.
When I expressed my concerns to the store personnel, I was advised that there was nothing they could do because it was company policy.
Ambiguity once again leads to uselessness.
Who did they speak to? What
exactly did they say in expressing their concerns? What
exactly was the response?
The only type of substrates acceptable for bearded dragons are solid substrates such as reptile carpeting, ceramic tile, papertowel or non-adhesive shelf liner. Anything other than solid substrates, is unacceptable and most certainly will increase the risk of impaction which is a major cause of bearded dragon fatalities.
This is so blatantly incorrect that I will go so far as to characterize it as "a load of ignorant crap that is being parroted by someone who does not truly comprehend the meaning of the statements they are issuing."
We also ask that PETCO change their policy on lighting and heating and commit to using bright white basking bulbs during daylight hours and ceramic heat emitters in the evening in place of infrared heat bulbs and strictly adhere to the use of linear fluorescent uvb bulbs that the animals can get to within 6-8 inches of. We ask that they also consider using a more accurate method of checking the temperatures in the tanks to ensure that the bearded dragons have an appropriate basking spot temperature of 95F-105F to ensure the proper digestion and growth of the animals as well as an available cool spot of 75F-80F to allow for proper thermoregulation. This can be simply accomplished by using a digital probe thermometer or an infrared temperature gun in lieu of stick on thermometers, such as the round gauge or strip type.
Given that the author again did not detail the specifics required to attribute value to their statements, the ambiguity results in issues. Did they themselves ask the employees if temperature guns or placed probes were used to check the temperature on a regular basis? Did they take out their UVB meter and check the avaliable basking spots? I suspect they did not, since the inclusion of such information would have been beneficial to their arguments- "This basking light is wrong" simply doesn't hold the weight of a statement that details the micromules of photons per square meter second underneath the light source along with a note about the tool used to determine it.
On the topic of feeding, we ask that baby and juvenile bearded dragons, only be fed appropriate sized feeders specifically crickets that are no larger then the space between their eyes to avoid risks of impaction, that they be offered an adequate supply of such feeders and we also ask that they discontinue the use of mealworms as a feeder in the baby and juvenile animals for the same said risk. We ask that a fresh and continuous supply of appropriate dark leafy greens be made available to them on a daily basis such as Arugala, Collard Greens, Dandelion Greens,etc. In regards to supplements, we recommend that the bearded dragons are offered an appropriate amount of vitamins to ensure proper bone growth specifically a calcium vitamin with D3 and no phosphorous like Rep-cal, as well as a weekly multivitamin if this is not already a practice PETCO has in place.
But... the author explained earlier in the body of their complaint that they weren't present to see the animals fed? How then are they determining the value of the diet- much less condemning it as inadequate?
Please also consider upgrading your tank size as well as limiting the amount of baby beardies that are housed together.The current standard for an individual adult bearded dragon is a 40 breeder size tank and only 5-10 babies should be housed together in a tank of similar size.
"The current standard" used by... No sources cited. Furthermore, any expectation that a retail chain or dealer should be required to provide space that is appropriate for long term housing during the short term period that the animals are in their posession is absurd to the point of idiocy.
The practices we have requested above are the minimal standard of care that most experienced handlers use today and are used to simply ensure the health of the bearded dragon species.
Experience is both quantitative and qualitative and the author has given very little of the details of their own. What they have provided does not give the impression of an individual who has much of either, this invalidates a large portion of their criticisms and complaints.
Further, I'm going to go ahead and wager that the author did not actually conduct a comprehensive survey of every bearded dragon owner's husbandry practices and point out that their use of the term "most" is unsupported.
We believe the current husbandry practices of PETCO when it comes to bearded dragons, is sub-standard and needs to be changed in order to avoid any further animal losses
While an idealist might maintain that any loss is unacceptable, the simple biological fact is that not every offspring produced by a given species is intended to make it to adulthood, biologically speaking "failure to thrive" is a vital part of the evolutionary process and important to the continued success of the species as a whole, if not the individual. A realist also understands that there will be a certain percentage of animals which will fall victim to circumstances that lead to their death in captivity; the question becomes one of acceptable losses versus unacceptable losses and brings rise to further debate. That said, the author of the petition gives no specific numbers relative to the chain of stores they are addressing- accusing- of substandard care. How many bearded dragons does Petco buy in a given year? How many arrive to them in suboptimal conditions? How many die while in their posession? How many die within what time frame after being purchased? All of these numbers would be required to drawn any kind of evidenced conclusion about the issues raised by the author yet none are presented. Again, I assume this is because the author does not have the information in their posession and did not use it to draw the conclusions they have drawn.
So I have to say... why should the company pay any heed to the criticisms that have been placed before them in this petition? Why should any individual sign their agreement to it's contents? It fails on every level to convince me of the accuracy of it's conclusions, the knowledge of it's author and the value of it's creation.
Now onto the thread-
Because Petco employees are not required to know anything about their care except to read the Petco care sheet and repeat it to potential buyers
Cite a source please. Show me some verifiable internal training material or communication that validates this statement.
Petco dragons are either wild caught
Here you clearly have not the slighest clue about the subject you're presenting or the validity of the "facts" you are using to fuel your argument. You're simply ignorant of the subject matter on even the most basic level.
or are coming from huge, massive breeding facilities where the breeders are bred to death and the babies are sold for profit.
Cite a source please. Show me some proof of the source of all of the dragons that pass through Petco. Please show me necropsy reports that indicate "breeding to death" as the cause of the eventual death of the animals owned by those suppliers.
And... what's wrong with selling bearded dragons for a profit? First I'd like to point out that retail pet stores rarely show a profit on the sale of live animals, regardless of the retail markup they may apply from the price paid to their supplier when the required elements to maintain them are accounted for... The sale of live animals is a draw that generates a customer base for the profitable supplies required for their maintenence. Even if that is not the case based on the business model used by Petco specifically- what do you propose as an alternative? Selling them at a deliberate loss? Giving them away for free? Of course they are sold with the intention of some profit being made from the sale in some manner at some point; for a company to do anything else would simply be stupid, as is the insinuation that there is something morally wrong with this.
I am rescuing a dragon this weekend from someone who got it over 8 months ago and is keeping the poor thing in a FIVE gallon tank with coconut bark as a substrate. Guess who told them that was adequate housing? Our friendly folks at Petco.
In reading this, you seem to be saying that the sole responsibility for the conditions of the animal you are "rescuing" lays on the Petco company. That there is no culpability attributed to the buyer whatsoever for the conditions and state of the animal they were keeping. And again, please cite sources- give me the name and contact information of the person you are describing. I'll contact them and get the name and contact information for the person who apparantly willfully and maliciously misled them so severely as well as request some proof of the source of the dragon. Given the severity of the accusation you are laying out, I am certain you checked the receipts before coming to so damning a conclusion.
but the reality is that the vast majority of people who buy them do not do years of research as most of us did before buying a baby.
Really? You did years of research before buying a baby bearded dragon? Multiple years?
I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on that one.
I have had so many people come to our store/rescue after buying a lizard
You're a store AND a rescue?
And you directly compete within the same market as a Petco store, for the business of the local consumers? Well then you
must have proof of everything you have said given the penalties for libel and your clear status as a competitor.
I also wanted to add that there are already a huge number of great breeders, and WAY more bearded dragons in rescues and looking for homes than you would think. Petco is the main supplier of rescue dragons
How many bearded dragons are there in rescues exactly? How many are there currently in captivity exactly? And you can cite sources and proof for each and every dragon in a rescue to verify that it's origins can be traced to Petco?
There isn't so much anymore a huge market of wild caught dragons
Getting your foot into your mouth while your head is up your ass is quite a trick. Did you have to train up to that level of flexibility or are you just naturally double jointed?
The vast majority of turtles/tortoises and many other types of reptiles (those you see in pet stores, at least) are still being taken from the wild.
Source please.
However, our rescue gets calls every single day from families whose kids just had to have that bearded dragon in petco so they just buy it.
So you go through at least 365 dragons a year? Substantial rescue effort there and I'd applaud you for it if I thought it was actually true.
An HSUS page?
Really? And you expect to be taken seriously?!
Such a petition CAN make a difference, and a HUGE difference compared to just sitting around, being negative and expecting something to just magically happen. This IS doing something!
Internet petitions aren't worth the paper that you signed your name on. Please note carefully the wording there.
