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Pets Plus Lockport, Kick Brothers - (INFO)

I was surprised to hear the news story as well - as I said, that's where I got my very first snake, and my ferret years ago... but I have to say that I visited there two weeks ago and while most of the downstairs reptile enclosures were ok, I did see the one (there were pictures on one of the news sites or on the SPCA site), of a cage pretty much piled with tortoises, and a few other very dirty cages and thought it odd.

It's obvious that the news did try to play up the "rack" situation - however, aside from the racks, there were tons and tons of single plastic totes piled on top of the racks in large stacks that would make it difficult to get to the cages to clean them out on a regular basis. Also of note is that the feeding and cleaning records that Pets Plus kept also indicated neglect, and that's hard to get around.

Also, for those who said the SPCA around here are nutjobs - well, I don't think that's the case. The SPCA works closely with the WNY Herp Society and reputable reptile vets in the area, and from what I've heard, the conditions have steadily gotten worse lately at the store. Of course you have to put aside sensationalism of those journalists who don't know much about reptiles, but if you look beyond that, conditions were still terrible. Live snakes coiled on dead ones?

I've never had a problem with the two animals I've purchased from Pets Plus, but again, that was years ago, and it seems the past year or so may have been the declining time period for them... Seems like they have been shorthanded for far too long and the animals suffered as a result. The owners now have to deal with the consequences. Can they recover from this situation and learn from it? Probably. Should we forget it happened? No, just like anything else discussed on the BOI.
 
Possibly that is why the Ex employee got fired .......Not doing his job, There are so many reasons why this happened. And truth is we may never know. I just hope people are willing to see past this. Fred if by some chance you are reading this "Good Luck "
 
Lauren,
I agree with your take on the local SPCA, and while not happy to see the video released, as I see why the created it for possible evidence, I realize they also have a PR need to satisfy. Don't want them confused with the more militant Humane Society. While the press certainly has the power of the editing machine, and we will never know what could have aired to lessen the damage but did not, I was thankful that they got the one SPCA representative, a male, saying that there will be a reinspection in a week. He didn't say "this place is disgusting, we have to shut this down" etc. The message that I got from that is "they can fix this, and move on", not that they are evil. Its a heck of a wake-up call, but hopefully they will emerge better from it, with some time.
Fred, don't know if you will still be down in FL next month, but the sun is hot, steaks medium-well, chameleons cool :cool: , and the beer cold.
 
Did anyone else notice that the SPCA "Agents" as they were called dress like a SWAT team. What's with that?? And when did they become Agents. Now that is scary..
Randy
 
There were also DEC Agents present I believe, not sure where the SPCA "agent" thing came into play, though I can't recall who wore what and I don't want to watch that video another time today...
 
The News was asking for those who had problems with animals they bought there to contact them. Might be an idea for those with healthy animals they bought there to contact them.. Seems they are looking for more blood in the water..Randy
 
The News was asking for those who had problems with animals they bought there to contact them. Might be an idea for those with healthy animals they bought there to contact them.. Seems they are looking for more blood in the water..Randy
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My take on that was that they were trying to build up a case against Pets Plus and wanted to show a long term pattern. JMHO
Anyway, to me this points out how little we actually know about each other in this business. Our contact generally is at shows, internet or places many miles away from the keeper's/breeder's place of business. Noone had ever even seen Chris Johnson and it appears noone had been upstairs at this place.
 
I just spoke with a gentleman who is helping the SPCA with the care of the herps seized from Pets Plus. Apparently several more animals have died or been put down... a few chameleons that were emaciated and frogs. I may get a chance to help care for these animals next week at the SPCA since there are so many animals that are in poor health.

You're right, until the DEC got involved to investigate animals being kept that are not allowed in NYS, no one had seen the conditions of the upstairs. The "state inspection" that Mr. Kick talked about his shop having passed was only from the Department of Agriculture, which has jurisdiction over dogs and cats, and those were housed downstairs in public view, and of course passed that inspection. I doubt the entire premises has ever been evaluated by other agencies until this happened.

After speaking to the gentleman involved with the case, I don't think by any means this was a "short term" thing. I appreciate that Mr. Kick may be friends/colleagues of many of you, but right now I have absolutely no sympathy for him and what he will have to deal with in trying to clean this up.
 
Kevin,
Fred and John have thousands of satisfied customers. I know reputable people who had been to this exact location, upstairs, and it wasn't as this. I do not think it accurate to say that those of us who have done business with them don't know much about them, or know "so little". While it would have taken a bad month or more IMO for what is seen here to have accumulated, this incident still rates as a snap shot, not a pattern. Chris Johnson's record is as a thief and scammer. With 20 years in the business, if the Kick's had any hint of scamming, you'd have have read it here.
 
Regardless of "how" this came about or that it may have not happened before, the Kicks are responsible for those animals. I LIKED this shop and am appalled that so many animals were neglected. Will I buy from them (if they escape charges) again? I'd have to say no, even though the ball python I got a few years ago is healthy and happy. Just because they didn't scam anyone doesn't mean they weren't responsible for a heinous action, in my opinion....

....ah well, I'll shaddap about this for now and see what happens in the coming days and weeks, otherwise, I might get an ulcer. Hopefully those of you who do have business dealings with the Kicks will think about this situation long and hard, and not dismiss it easily.
 
Kevin,
Fred and John have thousands of satisfied customers. I know reputable people who had been to this exact location, upstairs, and it wasn't as this. I do not think it accurate to say that those of us who have done business with them don't know much about them, or know "so little". While it would have taken a bad month or more IMO for what is seen here to have accumulated, this incident still rates as a snap shot, not a pattern. Chris Johnson's record is as a thief and scammer. With 20 years in the business, if the Kick's had any hint of scamming, you'd have have read it here.
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Evidently I didn't present my point very well. It was meant to be more general in nature and I certainly didn't mean to compare these individuals to Chris in regards to scamming people. If it came out that way I apologise to their friends and them, if they read this. My point was that most of what see of each other is the persona that we present to the public. You feel you know these guys, and trust their husbandry, but I doesn't appear you've visited their facilities. Many people felt the knew Chris but had never met him. You're assumption that this is a recent thing is based solely upon your interactions with them but not actual observation. Is someone going to take a picture of dirty cages as an example of the snake room? Are they going to say "I have such a high turnover that I don't have time to clean?" Keep in mind those rhetorical questions not accusations.
I'll ask you this Jim. I believe you to be someone that cares what happens to your animals after they have left your facilities. Are you going to ask some questions of them now? That's tough to do when you have a history with them. Are you going to think twice about sending chams to them?
 
Lauren,
That they do not have a history of scamming was not offered as an excuse for a heinous action, or as a suggestion that anyone should do business with them. It was mentioned because of this comparison made in a prior post:
No one had ever even seen Chris Johnson and it appears no one had been upstairs at this place.
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For the record, while Chris Johnson's animals were seized, reports indicate that their health was not yet in jeopardy. Chris's infamy here is as a thief. My intent was to create a distinction where a prior link had been made. Seeing Chris Johnson's place would have indicated he was a scammer, as he had no store-front, facility, or ball-morph breeders. The Kick's are quite tangible, with major issues to resolve. The upside is that it appears they needed a good kick .... no pun intended ... and they got a real big one.

Your reaction to not wanting to do businees with them is very valid. It is representative of the PR problem the Kick's have to confront. Many of us who know them are surprised but sympathetic. Its interesting, but for what might be all the wrong reasons, depending on one's point-of-view. I thank you for bringing the quite active up-state NY info here of late. Hopefully the spotlight will shift soon enough.

Kevin, just saw your note. I don't know that they will be purchasing anytime soon, as they have things to do. But I will still sell to them, as I sell to many jobbers, distributors, etc, who are not end-customers.

You're assumption that this is a recent thing is based solely upon your interactions with them but not actual observation.
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That is incorrect. It is based also on people I know and trust who have been there. I believe I stated that. You really don't need to state as fact your assumptions about what I know and how I know it, do you ?
 
You really don't need to state as fact your assumptions about what I know and how I know it, do you ?
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To be honest I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You've indicated in several posts that you believe that this is a lapse that occurred more recently as opposed to their general disregard for the well being of the animals in their care.

I can't tell you if he's had a bad week, month, many months, although it took time for some of these things to get bad.
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Possibly you're speaking of the latter part of the same sentence. I derived that from this statement of yours.

Fred is a friend and customer, although I have never been to Buffalo.
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Nobody writes volumes here Jim, so there is always going to be assumption
based upon what it appears the writer is stating. For example, you assumed I was calling Fred and John scammers and I corrected that assumption as soon as I realized it. You can correct me if I assumed incorrectly.
 
Kevin,
You need to read a couple of posts again. Sorry for the misunderstandings, but I never stated, or assumed, that you called Fred and John scammers. I saw your statement as abbreviated, in need of more distinction so that others would not make that link.

You've indicated in several posts that you believe that this is a lapse that occurred more recently as opposed to their general disregard for the well being of the animals in their care.
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It is correct that I see it as more recent, but I also indicated that it would take at least a month of neglect, IMO, for things to get this bad. It could certainly reflect a longer period of time. I highlighted a part of your above quote. Kevin, try to stay within the stated words of others. The current lapse indicates a general and significant disregard for the animals at present, it is plain as day, and none of my posts have indicated otherwise. What I said was that my belief was that the lapse is more recent, and not indicative of how they ran their shop in the past, going back in time to the direct references that I have for them. One is not separate from the others, or "as opposed" to the others. I have been doing business with them for a year, and the references I used where based on their operation then.

As they move forward, there is a pretty safe assumption that can be made. Fred and John, and Pets Plus, are going to be highly scrutinized by the local authorities from now moving forward. They will also have to watch for the press looking for another train-wreck. Whether they now possess a general disregard or not, they are going to have to find a way to get beyond it, and run a good shop, or they may face financial ruin.
 
Other side

I will be in Columbus this weekend and hopefully John will be also. I will talk to him personally to see the other side of the story. Hopefully all this can be cleared up quickly so our hobby can stop be a "negative news story" and help fuel all the banning reptiles legislation.
 
Fortunately, the tenor of the news stories have been of the "poor neglected animals" vein rather than a more negative "horrible dangerous nasty reptiles" attitude....
 
I'm not condoning this type of operation but In my opinion this looked pretty typical of many wholesale operations. I think the average person who has never been inside a wholesaler or even a proffesional large breeders operation would be shocked, amazed, overwhelmed by the number of animals and the cage sizes, I don't agree with it, but a lot of breeders do use 6 inch high rubbermaids for a lot of snakes.

Anyone familiar withthem from the shows know they deal with a lot of imported reptiles a good percentage that probably arrive in poor condition, dehydrated, thin, parasite ridden, missing digits etc. to begin with and a percentage will inevitably die. The whole process from collection to importing is a dirty business. I'm not condoning this but its a fact. As long as there is consumer demand for imported reptiles these situations will exist, they would not be stocking so many animals if there was not a market for them. They were really making a big deal out of the dried lizard carcass, if thats all they could find among thousands of live reptiles thats not too bad.

As far as water/cleanliness you would really need a staff working 24 hours a day to keep up with all those animals, I'm sure you could walk into most large breeders facilities and find some water bowls with litter in them or a dry bowl or some feces. In there defense snakes do not neccesarily need water 24/7 , several times a week will suffice.

With that large of an operation a lot of the animal care has to be entrusted to employees, I can empathize how hard it is to find reliable employees with reptile knowledge that take pride in their work and are willing to work for a low wage and if he's short 1 or 2 employees that could cause havoc in that type of business. Can they be blamed for a dead lizard or a dry bowl that an employee missed? Should they personally inspect each cage every day? Probably, but not possible.

One thing that did disturb me was in the video they show some pretty large boas still in display cubes like they had been at a show, very cramped and I think they raided on tuesday? If they had been left in those little cubes since the weekend that is cruel.

The USDA has been wanting to get jurisdiction to inspect reptile facilities and the industry and hobbyists have strongly opposed such regulations. Its situations like this that make me think it may not be such a bad idea.
 
I own and operate a wholesale reptile business (we import and export reptiles, as well as sell to hundreds of pets stores). I know of the Kick brothers, as I am originally from Philadelphia and had many pet store customers in PA and NY where the Kick brothers operated/delivered too (at that time, 1993-2000) they went under the name Reptile Addicts. We sold to many of the same customers.

I was not there and do not know what actually happen BUT I have been on their side of the fence, so to speak. Any time you deal with a large quantity of animals you are going to have a certain level of DOA's and sick animals. It's nature! Some animals fair better than others during the shipping process.

I think the lesson that needs to be learned here is that you must always keep your cages clean and dispose of any DOA's or sick animals. On the wholesale level it is not feasible to take each and every ill looking animal to the vet. I know that is hard for many of you to hear, but it's the truth and yes, it's the reality of dealing in live animals.

I offer many animals on kingsnake and reptileauctions. I have a 100% positive rating on reptileauctions. I do not send out sick or unhealthy animals. I send only 100% healthy, top quality animals at the best possible price to many retail and wholesale customers. I think my reputation speaks for itself.

Please no hate mail, I am just stating my opinion.
 
I understand about how some specimens do not survive the import process.

However, there were snakes that THEY bred that were allowed to hatch and then die without any care. That's not a sickly import, that's neglecting your own captive bred reptiles...

I'm not unsympathetic to most responsible reptile importers, dealers and wholesalers, however there are just FAR TOO MANY instances of neglect involved here to say "it's part of the business".
 
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