PetSmart, Reptile Republic and Flukers

[CheriS]

Yellow Fungus

A freind we meet online about a problem, just lost her third Beardie to this in the past three weeks and two others have died this week from others we know. Alone this year we know of more than 50 Bearded Dragons that contracted this and most have died. This is only one of two emerging epidemic illness in Bearded Dragons and both are terminal and contagious to other reptiles if not treated and so unrecognized by the medical profession. The other is the Adenovirus.

This has to be said, its known to many, but others are in the dark regarding this. PetSmart has been selling Bearded dragons that are infected with these problems, those animals where traced back to Reptile Republic as the supplier. Reptile Republic is affiliated with Fluker Farms.

For the past year we have traced many beardies, got pathology reports and tried to help many people who's bearded dragons were becoming deathly sick with what is commonly called "yellow fungus" the medical name for it is Chrysosporium anamorph of
Nannizzopsis vriesii. The amount of Beardies infected and dying with this has increased ten fold the past year. The tell-tale signs of it are a yellow discolotation on the scales/skin, but that is not all..... this fungus moves internally and MAY not show on the outside. The animal will die if not treated, and even treatment if caught to late is not working. Antiboitics only make it worse, and the fact that it will not show in a normal timed culture makes many Vets mistakenly treat it with wide spectrum antibiotics.

It seems a common thing found with it also is beardies loaded with coccidia, whether this is due to the decreased immune system, or perhap the other way around is unknown. MANY of the animals that had it also had been treated with antiboitics in the past, this makes us wonder, since the fungus is a yeast problem, if this is a result of that treatment. PLEASE NOTE: there is no scientific evidence of this, only the common factor that many where treated with antibiotic for other infections/bacteria, but that ALSO could be caused by a surpressed immune system from the fungus.

This is to serve as a warning...... and to inform others wherever we can, should your beardie start showing any of the signs of this, DO NOT let them be treated with Antiboitic, printout info on this fungus and take to your Vet, email me and I will supply the Vets name at a School of Veterinary Medicine that is studing this in Beardie Dragons that can be shared with your Vet. They need treated with both a topical and oral antifungul med, and quickly.

Most cases the owners had been taking them to Vets for months and it was unidentified, but treated as both fungal and bacterial on the skin with topical ointments, while the serious damage was going on inside the animal.

There are namy places that we now have info on both these problems now on the web. I would put them here, but I am not sure if that is allowed, so I don't want to risk this posting being deleted........ but there are search engines.

Cheri Smith

 

[WebSlave]

I don't have a problem with links to informational pages. If you think those pages will help, then you are encouraged to do whatever is necessary.

 

[theldara]

There is *a lot* of info on this Yellow Fungus w/ beardies at the pogona-diseases page at yahoo...

The url is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pogona_Diseases/

More nasty info on the evil Flukers and its realtionship to RR can be found at http://www.anapsid.org/flukers.html

 

[Seamus Haley]

Just a quick personal note...

More nasty info on the evil Flukers and its realtionship to RR can be found at http://www.anapsid.org/flukers.html

Linking to Kaplan's website generally makes me automatically feel the exact opposite sentiment that the link was given to inspire.

Are there any credible sources of information on this subject?

Perhaps one not overseen by a deranged anthropomorphizing card carrying PETA "ban all captive animals" plagerizing mad-woman with no biology crednetials to her name?

 

[HerpVenue]

I did not want to stray off the topic too much.
But this is coming from a link you posted.
It is from Melissa Kaplans site.

And then there's the question: would you, as a herp keeper looking to sell or trade any of your reptiles, consider doing so on a classifieds service owned by a company called China Foods whose phone number is also that of a Chinese restaurant?

I knew she was gonna put that up sooner or later. And I am willing to bet it is gonna get even worse. She is gonna tell people what they can and can not eat. Or at least insinuate.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I knew she was gonna put that up sooner or later. And I am willing to bet it is gonna get even worse. She is gonna tell people what they can and can not eat. Or at least insinuate

I wonder exactly what she wants people to do with reptiles then?

She's not shy about bashing the pet trade and even Zoos for maintaining them... As evidenced HERE

So we can't keep them in captivity...

We can't eat them...

She thinks that pictures of herps are "explotionary"...

We should apparantly forget they exist.

 

[HerpVenue]

What did I get from reading your link?
she claims this warwick guy is an expert because he has owned many herps. yet in the article it is admited that they have all prematurley died.

Correct me if I am wrong....but the life expectancy of an animal in captivity in the hands of a knowledgeable keeper is at least double that in the wild.

Just ask Clifford Warwick. He ought to know.

1. Buy reptiles.
2. have them die because of your inadequacies as a keeper.
3. buy more reptiles
4. have them die prematurely again
5. Speak out and say that "keeping reptiles as pets is a BAD idea"
6. once you have accomplished 1-5 you will be a renowned expert.

did I get my time line right?



Okay Cheri... my post has nothing to do with you... I just want to get things straight in my head.

I am against Reptillian classifieds because of the spam.
We have Melissa Kaplan Speaking against Reptillian classifieds because of?
Well let me see.
1. She smells of an animal activist. And she is definately for the Reptile Ban.
2. she is a moderator for _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . c o m


On a more personal note.
If we decide to keep "investigating" this fluker farm = Reptillian classified thing= BAD BAD BAD.
We also gotta investigate who has what to gain we gotta air everything out.. ie
1. who has a business relationship with whom?
2. Who was sending e-mails with the cloak and dagger bs
3. who is working for whom
4. who is not getting along with whom
5. Who really wants to see reptillianclassifieds go under
6. who really wants to have fluker farms stop their farming.
7. who wants to get this thing "aired" out. but at the same time stay anonymous.
8. who is an activist for what group?
9. and it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper.


this can get messy. even for the BOI.

And I would feel really bad for webslave. he is not involved in anything...but yet people are about to use his site as the "cannon fodder" for what look sto me like personal vendetta.

Cheri the personal vendetta thing is not directed at you either. You have a legitimate complaint. it just so happens it is a complaint that is tied closely to another matter. so please forgive me for what seems like "going off track".

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Agreed...

Ritchie, you hit the nail on the head regarding this "world renowned expert." I have kept in excess of 100 different species of herps myself, some have died, the astounding majority lived. Gee, but since I am not an IDIOT and can actually keep them ALIVE, that doesn't make me an expert. But of course, an EXPERT is only one that would further the cause of the animal right's activists. Those of us who can actually keep, maintain, and BREED these animals in captivity are labeled as evil, but Mr. Wannabe expert who epitomizes the "disposal pet" buyer is hailed as an expert because he furthers their cause that reptiles are hard to keep.

Anyway, sorry to rant, that part of the discussion I guess belongs back in the general business forum regarding this issue.

Back on track, thank you for the information Cheri. There have been alot of problems coming out of the RR/FF dragons for the last year or so, never knew what it was for sure other than bad stuff. Although I am super careful who I buy my dragons from, I will keep an eye out for this disease in any potential animals.

 

[CheriS]

WOW, does this happen often here?

This post was for information for the health of animals and people not having to have the heartbreak of caring for something only to see it waste and die no matter how hard you tried to care for it. So many of the animals that came direct from those sources are very ill or have died... if you doubt that, just go to their website and read the post from the "winners".

Knowing alot of the current info and PAST history of the animals/companies that came out of RR, FFI or a variety of names that they register, I can only read Melissa Kaplan's links as trying to inform the general public to beware.... Look how many people jumped into a contest and website and won "free animals" that cost them a small fortune in Vet bills and the loss of something they came to love. MOST users of that site, did not know that they were tied in with Flukers, and if you have been around reptiles long enough, you know what happened to the iguana's several years ago.

There is so much other info that was hidden and what looked to be an attempt to decieve the public, how can you condemn one that was attempting to make it known... with direct access to the proof?

That other article from Clifford Warwick..... I see that he states:

"It is simply not possible to even enter a species’ natural habitat, let alone remove a single individual, and have reason to believe that no harm is being done."

I read that to say that he is talking about wild caught, then retail sold....... I don't think anyone can say that those animals thrive for the most part, most of them do die, thats a fact, not a myth!

Credentials? College educations do certainly help and are a good basis for starting to learn, but they will never replace the hands on experience of the people that actually care and learn from the animals, pathology, and yes, even mistakes.

Rather than bashing someone for something you see as an error and jumping them on all things...... have you tried pointing out to them in email, phone or letters something that may not be accurate and the source for the correct information? That would serve far more good in the long run than condemning someone that goes to the expense and time to get some information out in the first place.

Do you have any idea just the man hour time that it takes to compose one source? The research both online and off, the putting it into layman terms and the effort and time to get it online?

I may not agree with someones recommendations, but I don't start calling them names and condemning them.... I sturdy the opposing position and why it is different, then make my own public findings or recommendations based on those facts. Then let others know and why. An educated person is only as good as the ONGOING education continues.

We know some much more today than 20 years ago, and so much more than last year, but much of that info came from the layman, not the scientist. Treating the yellow fungus and methods that are working, come from the breeders that experienced the problem, they are educating the medical field and the medical field is the FIRST to admit that and use that info to followup research.

There is little money in reptile research, the two Doctors I have been able to find that are working with these problems and actively researching them are doing so out of their own pocket, with little private life as they also have to keep a practice going/teaching position at University and support themselves. And both those are working with the "laymans" for information and data and grateful for it. As are also the labs doing much of the testing and basic data collecting.

Don't sell the "hands on" expert short or those that take the time to educate themselves in a field they are not degreed in.

 

[theldara]

Please note that Melissa did not start the inquiry into RR/Flukers. It was started by a well respected person in the Dragon/Gecko fields online. Melissa was simply putting up the page on her research. MK's site does help *a lot* of people, regardless of her personal opionions on the animal trade. Just my 2c.

 

[James Baiz]

Pet Smart

Pet Smart is a bad deal all around.

I was buying feeder mice there for awhile. Well i would go in and check out what they had. Well i noticed a bunch of Balls came in. I was checking them out and noticed two with URI's. I told them. They were like no big deal, we will have our guy check em out in the morning. I think my statement was you need to seperate them from the other 20. And quarintine all of them for awhile. Lady got all mad and took the 2 out.

I went in the following day just to see what was up. I noticed they still were selling out of the lot of them. I inquired about the other 2. And they stated they had them in the back and were watching them. I got pissed, Told them that they shouldnt have animals there they dont know how to care for and that those snakes needed meds. They both were foaming bad and were barely breathing. I got the brush off.

Called animal control and and go in 2 days later. They have a little sign on thier tanks state'ing all animals are under the care of thier vet and his name. But were still selling all the others in the tank.

They couldnt give a **** if they were selling sick animals.

My 2 cents

 

[HerpVenue]

Reptile Not Repulsive - But Keeping Them Is

The title to an article she has on her website. An article she personally put up on her website. But yet I can't call her names like "Animal activist"?

And then there's the question: would you, as a herp keeper looking to sell or trade any of your reptiles, consider doing so on a classifieds service owned by a company called China Foods whose phone number is also that of a Chinese restaurant?

This quote is her talking about reptillianclassifieds.com
Well gee. I do business with a guy who is/was a cook.
I also have done business with a guy who does carpentry work. (in fact there are several big breeders who does cabinetry carpentry etc etc.)
I am a lowly lab tech. I also own a website and so do the aforementioned breeders I have done business with. What does it really matter who owns the website.

The question she should be asking is....do we really want a moderator for a reptile site to be against keeping reptiles? Because she is against the keeping of ALL reptiles. Whether they be cared for properly or not.

The second question is.....what is she really after? Because there is nothing wrong with a chinese food restaurant owning a Reptillian classified. So why the attack on a classified? Does it have anything to do with her moderating for another site who makes at least part of its money through its classified adds

Do you have any idea just the man hour time that it takes to compose one source? The research both online and off, the putting it into layman terms and the effort and time to get it online?

Let me see....................um yes. And my care sheets are because I owned the animals or rehabilitated them or rescued them. I did not just read some book and decide that I was an expert. In fact I got a couple of caresheets I have not put on line....I have been working on them for months now.

If s/he were the expert s/he claims to be, then they would have read Fredric Frye, DVM's book Iguana: A guide to their biology and captive care. S/He would be a member of the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians wherein there appears numerous articles by true experts such as Drs. Thomas Boyer and Stephen Barten. S/He would also no doubt subscribe to the Journal of Small Exotic Animal Medicine, wherein Drs. Barten, Boyer, and Douglas Mader, another exotics vet with extensive reptile experience, regularly contribute articles. At the very least, s/he would have read and kept on hand the 1992 edition of Philippe de Vosjoli's The Green Iguana Manual. And since this vet is now responsible for Petco iguanas, surely s/he is now a member of the International Iguana Society.

Her letter to a petco
So according to her articles All I gotta do is kill hundreds of reptiles in my care and read all the aforementioned books...then I will become an expert? I guess I will never be one. Because although I have read tons of books on reptiles....I will probably never kill hundreds of herps in my care.

Don't sell the "hands on" expert short or those that take the time to educate themselves in a field they are not degreed in.

One of the foremost experts she posted on her website about...admits to having all his animals die "prematurely" and yet he is an expert. He never mentions anything about actually learning to care for these wonderful creatures...and yet he is an expert. I wonder what that would make me....A GOD?

Please note that Melissa did not start the inquiry into RR/Flukers. It was started by a well respected person in the Dragon/Gecko fields online. Melissa was simply putting up the page on her research. MK's site does help *a lot* of people, regardless of her personal opionions on the animal trade. Just my 2c.

yes.. I agree she did a wonderful job. I sincerely aplaud her for her discovery. BUT If she was simply "putting up a page on her discovery" why then would she say things like "would you, as a herp keeper looking to sell or trade any of your reptiles, consider doing so on a classifieds service owned by a company called China Foods whose phone number is also that of a Chinese restaurant? " That is not just putting up a page on her discovery. That is her telling the public not to deal with the site because they are owned by a chinese restaurant. The next step would be to tell the public that eating reptiles is a bad thing. It has happened time and time again. Study history




And to those who say she is *not* against banning reptiles. To those who say she is *only* supporting proper husbandry. Here is a quote from her

Being relatively pragmatic, however, I also realize that what I say or feel about the situation isn't going to magically put an end to the pet trade-as-we-know-it-today. So, as long as herps are being kept in captivity, I continue to provide information on them.

Just in case you missed it. Her site is only there to educate until the day her REAL plans come into fruition.



And on a side note.
I have Reptiles. I keep Reptiles. I breed Reptiles. And until just a couple days ago....I also had my own little classified site. It got deleted because I never updated my peronal info like the company wanted me to. And guess what else my dad and uncle use to own a chinese restaurant. So what is up now? Am I gonna get investigated now? Ritchie Luna used to own chineese restaurant...and used to have classifieds. . Mine would go along the lines of ...Melissa Kaplan, Animal activist moderating for _________.com who makes money through classifieds is now investigating and trying to shut down the competition....

 

[theldara]

MK

Um... trying not to enter a fight here too far... but please do not bash someone if you've not spoken to them or informed them of your concerns (ie telling MK that you're posting all this on her here). Given, I dont think she'll be able to reply (like me she has several severe health issues that take up much of her time, I feel we're lucky she can do what she can w/ her articles, books, and the IguanaMail lists).

At any rate, this wasnt started to be a thread on MK and I'm sorry I posted the link to than information. As stated in that link, Des got most of the information and MK added a bit more before upping it to the webspace.

Also, her credientals for her work are on her site and are as good or better than a lot of us folks in the herptological world. I'm not saying she's a God of herps or anything like that, I'm just sayin there's good info there that's helped more animals than we could ever know.

Also, in bashing her for linking up the food industry with RR nobody bothered to quote her comment that "As many people know, I am well aware and have no problem with the diversity of what people around the world eat."... she's just pointing out the connection, that doesnt hurt anyone. I would have put it together without her pointing it out, but that's beside the point.

The real point anyway, regardless of who posts the research or does the foot/mouse work is that RR/Flukers are selling sick animals. That's it, end of story... MK has nothing to do with them sellin sick animals. Heck, even if they were selling to the food/medicianal industries they shouldnt be selling sick animals!

 

[HerpVenue]

QUOTE:but please do not bash someone if you've not spoken to them or informed them of your concerns (ie telling MK that you're posting all this on her here)
ANSWER
1. she reads this site. She even has a link to the post that discusses reptillianclassifieds. I am sure she knows this is here.
2. has she informed fluker of her posts here?

Who am I bashing? it is right there in black and white

Being relatively pragmatic, however, I also realize that what I say or feel about the situation isn't going to magically put an end to the pet trade-as-we-know-it-today. So, as long as herps are being kept in captivity, I continue to provide information on them.

QUOTE: Also, her credientals for her work are on her site
ANSWER
read a couple books. Join a couple societies. Then basically write a report on what you have read........and poof you are an expert.
This same expert thinks a two year old boa routinely gets to ten feet and over fifty pounds. I wish I could get mine to get that big....but I just can't stuff them enough.


QUOTEshe's just pointing out the connection, that doesnt hurt anyone.
ANSWER
It does not hurt anyone.....that is why she says the following

would you, as a herp keeper looking to sell or trade any of your reptiles, consider doing so on a classifieds service owned by a company called China Foods whose phone number is also that of a Chinese restaurant?

explain that

QUOTE: I am well aware and have no problem with the diversity of what people around the world eat.
ANSWER Then why the comment on why would anyone do business with reptilian classifieds..specially since they are owned by chinees restaurant.


QUOTE The real point anyway, regardless of who posts the research or does the foot/mouse work is that RR/Flukers are selling sick animals. That's it, end of story... MK has nothing to do with them sellin sick animals. Heck, even if they were selling to the food/medicianal industries they shouldnt be selling sick animals!

ANSWER yes I agree with you.... But why make those comments about reptilanclassifieds? With her aforementinioned comments on herpers using reptillieanclassifieds....you can't honestly tell me she is NOT trying to stop people from using them. I AM ALL FOR STOPPING THE SELLING OF SICK ANIMALS. But why even say those things about the classifieds? Why try to stop people from using them?
She is a moderator for Kingsnake.com. What is her vested interest? You do know kingsnake makes its money mostly through adds right? you do know that kingsnake.com sees even the free classifieds as competition right? you do know that kingsnake.com even considers faunaclassifieds as competition right?

 

[CheriS]

Ritchie can you deny that many owners seen online or even dealers at show have no business owning or selling reptiles?

Thats the pet trade-as-we-know-it-today line, take a look at this "Quality Stock"

DO not view if you get upset easily-a breeder

Amazing what humidity will do to a once lovely creature

Do not view if you get upset easily-baby pen

Can you guess who's pictures these are?

The issue with RR, FFI, and the reptillianclassifieds was deceit and ethics. These animals did not just suddenly start being ill when a website was put it and people spammed..... it was going on for months before that in beadies and years before that in iguana's.

Yes, sometimes peoples passion over one breeder made them frustrated with the entire industry. When RR started giving away 2 beardies a day on their site, We warned people, they were importing serious ill, way to young and undersize beardies and to keep them from other reptiles and get them to a vet. Many could not believe this... why would a company promote such a site and then send out sick or diseased animals?? Far too many people learned the truth the hard way.

Thats the point, because there is NO concern for the animals or people that get them. It was to get orders from Pet Stores and into the pet trade of Beaded Dragons in the United States.... for the almighty dollar, and it worked, they sold an immense volume of animals during just a few months... so the point was, okay, this one is burned out, lets move on to the next fast buck gimic.......... ALL everyone, not just MK was trying to point out was here is where it looks they have landed next.... this company that was importing known sick animals that in turn infected many others in the United States and the effect of those will be felt for months if not years to come.

Okay I ask...and I don't care what people eat... chinese food or no, would you support a company like this? Showing that they are tied into RR, FFI and on and on.......... is telling others that if you support them, you are helping them continue those practices, can't it be accepted for what it was, a public service to warn others and not a chance to beat up someone... there were honorable reason that was posted in a location that is view by alot of herpers

I also said on a forum, as long as they are shipping out and selling diseased animals, I will be around and helping the owners deal with the problems, and inform others, does that make me the same choice names that were bashed about here?

I read that and was shocked, so much hate over an issue that was NOT what this post was intended to be, or my agenda when I wrote it.

My 2c. with change

 

[Bobby Pruett]

I read through the replies on this and no one is wondering where petco and flucker are getting the bearded dragons they are selling??? I did a little research and was shocked(not really) of where they are getting them. At least this is who they claim to have a contract with. I wont ruin it for everyone, so try to see if you can figure out where these fine folks are getting their dragons from? Sorry for the pic, but I couldnt help myself

 

[CheriS]

OMG!!

LMAO!!!!! that is too funny

We do know where some of their( RR) start up stocks came from, and I have no respect for those breeders now, especially when they know what the situation was like before they sold them.

And that is a whole nother story, just let me say, some of those breeders that supplied them, stooped to some of the lowest levels of business I ever saw in any commercial venture to acquire the animals they got to resell to them.

I wonder if the people that thought they were sending clutches to be fostered and find good homes know where those animals really went?

 

[HerpVenue]

no one is wondering where petco and flucker are getting the bearded dragons they are selling???

you mean they did not farm them?
sheesh this is getting widespread. everyone has their hand in the cookie jar

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

So they AREN'T farming them now? They are BUYING that many?

Me confused.

 

[Bobby Pruett]

The only clue you guys get is.........

How breeds bearded dragons in such numbers that they could supply a Biz with 1000's of dragons at a time? I found out because I offered to sell to a local shop and they showed me a copy of their compititions contract for dragons. That was the reason they didnt sell them. They couldnt compete with the prices.