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Pituophis newbie question

Tim Turner

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I have become quite interested in Pitupophis spp, but am finding somewhat limited information available online (compared to Pantherophis or Lampropeltis spp). Are there significant differences in temperament between the various subspecies/localities/morphs of Pituophis spp (recognizing that snakes are individuals, so looking for general rules which would have exceptions)? In general, which types are larger and which are smaller as mature adults?
 
Thank you for the link, Alan. I'll go over it thoroughly. While a Gopher/Pine/Bull Snake would be my first snake of my own, my daughter has a Corn Snake, and I helped her with months of research and setting up its habitat before purchase (checking temps and humidity over time to be certain all was ready). In regularly handling and feeding her snake, I have gotten the urge to have one of my own, and Pituophis seem quite attractive to me. Probably looking at purchasing a hatchling which is being conceived now once they are old enough for sale (i.e. regularly feeding on frozen/thawed mice of appropriate size, so sometime in late summer/fall?) so I have some time for research and preparation.
 
Sounds good ... there are still some 2015 out there depending on what direction you decide to go in ... unless you have already located a breeder your working with. Personally .. I have SD Gophers and Sonoran Gophers ... love both!
 
No, I have not yet settled on a breeder; I want to take some more time for research. I am enjoying the photos posted to the Facebook Pituophis Enthusiasts group. Off hand, if I had to choose now, it would probably be a San Diego gopher snake, but there are gorgeous Sonorans, Pines, Bulls ...

What differences have you noticed between your SD and Sonoran Gophers?
 
They are both great snakes ... the SD seem a little more high-strung and likely to "buzz" as babies and little more flighty .. my sonorans are all pretty easy to deal with ... but can't go wrong with either ... both eat well and are easy to care for.
 
I have read and digested the info at the kingsnake.com link you were kind enough to provide, Alan, and I am leaning toward a gopher snake, especially the two types you seem to prefer, Sonoran (Pituophis catenifer affinis) and San Diego (P.c. annectens). It is too bad the link does not have information on the Bullsnake (P.c. sayi) page (am I correct in thinking that sayi is generally larger than the other subspecies of P. catenifer, or at least those with ancestry from Texas and Oklahoma are larger than those from further north?).

In looking at photos online, I find some of the amelanistic gopher snakes quite attractive. Are there any reputable breeders you would suggest I look at/contact to see what may be available this year?
 
All my stock comes from either Jason Mason or John Cherry of Cherryville .. I know Jason has some of both from 2015. John Cherry has bullsnakes too ... he and Jason are both great guys, highly knowledgeable, professional,and have top-quality critters at very reasonable prices, Some of my favorites are my hybino sonorans!

Good luck
 
I've heard from a couple Pit people that the morphs are generally more mellow than the normal bull or gopher snakes. I recently picked up a baby fire bull at a reptile show. I had looked into their care requirements previously, but not the specifics among the different species or morphs until I brought mine home. I have to say, he's a great little snake for handling, and has an awesome feeding response, but not aggressive or defensive at all as far as I've seen. I did see about 2 seconds of tail buzzing one time after I uncovered him, but that stopped even before I picked him up. I've seen more reaction from baby corn or king snakes, and they typically have less of a reputation than bulls IME.
Bull snakes do tend to grow a little larger than gophers, and females will be larger than males. Not a huge difference, most likely less than 1' either way.
 
I am not sure the morphs are better or worse .. though it has been observed in some snakes that albinos are more flighty and nervous ... my own personal experience .. the normal gophers I have are just as tractable as my hybinos ... now there is a difference between WC (normal) and any CBB of normal or morphs.
 
Alan, thank you for the breeder recommendations. I have Cherryville Farms' website bookmarked, and "liked" Envy Reptiles' Facebook page. John and Jason are also both members of the Pituophis Enthusiast Facebook group, so I'll keep an eye on their posts to see what may be available.

Todd, thank you for the reply. I wonder if morphs tend to be more mellow because they are certainly captive bred (i.e. I doubt there would be many wild caught albinos up for sale)? The more I hear about (and look at photos of) gopher snakes, the more I think my next snake will be one.
 
Alan, I have heard comments from king snake keepers that albino california king snakes can be more likely to bite than other forms of the same subspecies (though the one I have handled was very tractable, which may just go to show that snakes are individuals). I don't recall hearing that about any other species' albinos.
 
Tim, I can tell you that my experience with bulls is that they are pretty tractable temperament wise if handled frequently from a young age. They can get rather large, I have a male that is eight years old and slightly over 7 feet. He is regularly handled by myself as well as my kids and has not bitten or threatened anybody as an adult. All of the other bulls I have kept seemed to stay in the 6-61/2 foot range, though its probably worth mentioning that I had a friend that had one (male) reach eight feet. My experience is females can be a little testier than males. They can be cannibalistic so if you attempt to breed them always supervise and separate them after mating occurs.

As far as gophers I've kept both Sonorans and Applegate San Diego's in years past. I found Sonorans to be less nervous but either would make a great pet. I personally think the Sonoran is hands down one of the nicest looking of the pituophis.

As far as morphs being more or less aggressive I can only verify albinos seem more prone to biting than other morphs. This is across the board with many snakes in my experience and is most likely attributed to the poor eyesight common with albinos in general regardless of the species.
 
I'd be interested in others opinions on that as it is an interesting theory/observation .. me personally find my amelinistic corns, albino balls, kahl albino boas, and hybino (hypo/albino) sonoran gophers to all be very tractable and no more likely to bite than the normals of each of those types. But .. just my observation .. though I did read that albino Great Plains Rats tend to be more nervous and therefore nippy as young.
 
Thank you for the comment on bull snakes, Michael. I had not known the behavorial difference between females and males. Is that common for any other snake species? And thank you for the advice that bull snakes can be cannibalistic to potential mates (I have often heard that of king snakes and occasionally of milksnakes). At the moment I have no plans to breed snakes, but I would not absolutely rule it out as a future possibility.

Interesting speculation on albinos and a possible link between poor eyesight and biting in snakes. [I had a classmate in college who was albino, and had very poor eyesight; I seem to recall that he was legally blind, though he wore thick glasses which corrected to 20/200 or so]. Like Alan, I too would be interested hear the experiences of others with albino morphs of various species of snake, and any link to behavior.
 
Tim, I can only verify the behavior of species I have kept. It seems in my experience that female aggression is more common in some species than others. I've noticed it in bulls, carpet pythons, some boas (commons, "red tails", garden/amazon tree boas, and emeralds), White lip pythons, bloods, and green trees with a strong degree of consistency. However, some of those animals are known to be aggressive in general and most people who breed whether hobby or otherwise keep more females than males and this was certainly true in my case. My observation with all those species is males settle down faster and are more pleasant in demeanor. However, this perception could be skewed by the ratio difference of males to females kept and or interacted with. The exception to that would be bulls and carpets which I've interacted most closely with over the years as I have always enjoyed these species more than the others resulting in longer periods of interaction with these species.

I've noticed no real difference in others I've kept such as various corns, milks, kings, gophers, hog nose, ball pythons, bloods, rosy boas, dumerills boas, sand boas, childrens & spotted pythons, as well as a few odd species here and there. The reason for this could be less real interaction with the animals as many of these where maintained simply as breeding stock with interaction limited to husbandry purposes. It would be interesting to see what others here have found with regards to aggression level differences between sexes with species they have or currently keep.
 
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