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PLEASE HELP ME

I also looked at Al's ad, but did not have the funds at the time though I wanted the animals in question.  Even though I did not contact him about them, I knew exactly what he was offering - an incredible deal on some otherwise more expensive animals because two were essentially non-feeders.  Lee got six animals for less than the price of 3 - shipping is NOT included in the cost of the animal.  Even if it were in this case, he STILL got a deal on the remaining four animals.  I keep Solomon Island ground boas (related to the viper boas); the female cost $75 not including shipping and is a yearling that feeds well.  The male cost $40 at a show and was a neonate/juvenile non-feeder.  He is alive and well though classically finicky about eating.  Do I expect my money back from the dealer?  No!  I got exactly what I paid for.  Viper boas along with others in Candoia group are not as easily cared for as some might think.  They are sensitive to their environment - conditions that are too hot will easily kill them.  At the very best, most dealers/breeders only offer a 48 hour guaranty.  Who is to say what these snakes were subject to after Lee received them?

Al went above and beyond the call of duty by sending the $23 back to Lee (there is no proof that money was not received so far as I can tell).  It is common practice to require actual PROOF that an animal is dead before sending ANY form of return on it.  Anyone who issues a return without proof is overly generous compared to the accepted practices in this hobby.  It is Al that is getting ripped off by Lee in my book by Lee stopping funds via the credit card company.  Lee did not give Al the opportunity to fix the situation and was belligerent in the process.  Lee got exactly what he paid for but still wants more.  The ad clearly stated the condition of the animals and their situation.  There was no guaranty - non-feeders NEVER come with one - and 4 healthy animals by Lee's own words that are still far less than the current market value when divided by the cost.

Dianne Johnson
 
Al, first, based on the previous posts, I don't think you owe anyone a refund, but I personnaly would send the jerk a refund on the two dead snakes just to prove I was a better man than he was.
 
I was never ride to anyone but I see how people are very in a hurry to jump on someone. Well if you had dead snakes arrive in the mail it wouldnt be the same way I know it and why because it was all over the board not to long ago. I am not trying to rip anyone off the two really are dead I have them still even though they are starting to smell. Al, I did not tell them you swindeled me at all. Cause you didnt swindle me. I believe that when you shipped the snakes they were all alive I believe that the bags that you sent them in did the harm since its kinda worm around here and the two weaker one couldnt handle it. I think they would have been better off either all together in one bag or in individual delli containers. Instead of in tiny little not areaas like individualy wraped candis. I told my card company that the two were dead on arrival same as I told you. They are just makeing sure I get what I order. I faxed them your add. They said by saying they are fussy eaters but perfectly healthy is a guarantee because you cant buy a car without the engine and in other words I paid for those snakes to be to your words. You didnt state they may die in shipping or anything like that. Or Lee I will not guarantee these snakes to your door!. I am not try to be a Big meany or jerk or dick. I just want esactly what I paid for. In know way will anyone buy these snakes off me trust me no one likes them except maybe me and you. They are cheaper whole sale but they are not guaranteed to be parasite free as Al said his were. If i'd have known it would have bothered him this much about the whole thing I would have went through the whoelsaler they are about 15ea from them same small size everything and they are guaranteed even with the parasites. But I sae AL's ad. Well I dont believe Al is a bad guy not one bit and neither am I. I just want what I paid for and I did not get it. Well I dont know if you all are going to retaliate against me seeing as thats the way its been. Oh and here are all the e-mail from between us!!!
-Lee
 
i would like payment to be as soon as possible, as i
am shipping other snakes out today. (wed) thanks, al




<[email protected]> wrote:
Yea,
thats fine when is a good day to pay you? after I
pay you will you ship out
next day? Thanks,
-Lee

From: Al and Becky <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: viper boas
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT)

yes paypal is [email protected] and i use ups,
if
that is ok
<[email protected]>
wrote:
ok do you take paypal and do I get to choose the
shipping way? Thanks,
-lee

From: Al and Becky <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: viper boas
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
only ball trades, and 200 is the min i will go.
thanks, al

<[email protected]>
wrote:
So are you accepting trades and will you
take
175.00
for all of them
shipped? thanks,
-Lee

From: Al and Becky <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: viper boas
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>3:44 -0700 (PDT)

i still have them, and the pics are on
there
way.
and they have not been forced yet
i was gonna give them a few monthes, due to
the
fact
they do have food in them and look great.
thanks,
al
 
From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To : <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT)  
he must be sleeping.



<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
I recieved them today and all but one seem to be
fine. He is not moving or
breathing his tongue is not longer flickering
either. Can you please e-mail
me back soon cause I am not expecting to pay for a
dead snake. Thanks and
take care,
-Lee
From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:46:44 -0700 (PDT)  
if he gets fuzzy before he wakes up let me know.
al




<[email protected]> wrote:
He sure doesnt appear to be sleeping but in that
case when will he wake up?
Let me know ASAP.
-Lee




From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:20<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>9 -0700 (PDT)  
i will need proof that this animal is no longer with
us.



<[email protected]> wrote:
Fuzzy what do you mean??Thanks,
-lee


From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>3:53 -0700 (PDT)  
the most i will refund is $26 so if you want i will
paypal you.


<[email protected]> wrote:
Ok I can ship him back to you via any shipper and I
can also take pictures.
If I do ship him back to you I will expect be
reinbursed on the shipping as
well. Thanks and let me know what you want me to do.
I can do whatever. I
think he must have got stressed over the shipping or
being in a snake bag in
the heat could have cause a problem on such an
unhelathy eater. Thanks and
take care let me know ASAP!!!,
-Lee


From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:36:23 -0700 (PDT)  
now i just went and canceled my payment. until you
send me proof of the dead snake, i will give you
nothing. you have been very rude and pushy from the
start. and i tried to work with you and sent you
$23.00 without any proof of the snake being dead. so
now if you want a penny from me, you will have to ship
the dead snake to me at YOUR expense. thanks for
sending me 25 + emails and wasting alot of my time, Al





<[email protected]> wrote:
Hey well its your choice I can send this thing back
to you at your expense.
You need to credit my account 26.00 the e-mail I am
useing to contact you is
not my acount and you have not credited my account
yet I will go through
with the complaint then. Thanks,
-Lee



From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   Richard Camp <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:37:48 -0700 (PDT)  
i sold the parents, but have 6 juvis for sale all 6
are in great shape, healthy, and parasite free. with
the exception of two, they are kinda fussy eaters, and
have had only 2 meals, but are still very healthy. the
others have eaten 4-7 times...if you would like pics,
email me,


this is the ad you replied to in full. i did not
guarantee any of these animals, but have still tried
to work with you. you will not provide proper proof of
death and you will not pay a dollar or two to send
them back. this, mind you is on top of the fact that
in my ad i clearly stated that 2 were not eating
properly and appeared to still be healthy. pics of
these snakes not moving is nowhere near evidence of
death due to the fact that viper boas do not move very
often when out of thier enclosure. well anyway, my
point is if you want anything back, you can send the
dead snakes back, or please stop harassing me via
email. as i will do nothing untill the corpses are in
my posesion, and at most will refund 1/2 of your money
after shipping.


From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re: viper boas  
Date :   Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:38:58 -0700 (PDT)  
1. YOU DONT SHIP YOUNG SNAKES ON A FRIDAY    2. I WILL
NOT REFUND A DIME EVEN IF ALL SNAKES ARE RETURNED 3. I
WOULDNT CONSIDER A REFUND TO SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN
NOTHING BUT RUDE. WHY WOULD I SEND YOU YOUR MONEY BACK
WHEN YOUR TRYING TO SCAM ME OUT OF MONEY FOR 2 OF THE
SNAKES ALREADY.
AND ALSO, IF I KEEP GETTING EMAILS FROM YOU, YOUR
ADDRESS WILL BE BLOCKED. THANKS, AL



<[email protected]> wrote:
I will just send them all back refund me my money
and I will send them back
to you today. Thanks,
-Lee

From :   Al and Becky <[email protected]>  

To :   <[email protected]>  
Subject :   Re:  
Date :   Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:24:15 -0700 (PDT)  
CAN YOU READ?  i told you 4 times im not gonna pay for
shipping back to me. if you want any kind of a refund,
you will have them back here by thurs. otherwise you
can forget it. i told you that already, and im sick of
you tryin to jerk me around. if you would like, i can
say you dont get a dime. due to the fact that my ad
stated 2 were not eating. and in no way did i scam
you. it was right in my ad.



<[email protected]> wrote:
Al,
You need to figure out a way for me to ship these
snakes back to you and you
need to pay for it. Thanks,
-Lee
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just to prove I was a better man than he was.

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> is it the better man or bigger sucker?
from what I gather hear its seems Al is a very nice person, being realistic in this world often people will try to take advantage of people who seem very nice, why because they think they are easy push overs, to me that sounds like what is going on hear, Al I would contact your credit card company and make sure to stop his atempt to take the money back, he is claiming to the credit card company that two died during shipment from what I gathered from reading here that isnt true one died right after shipment and the other 36hrs later, if that is correct he is now commiting credit card fraud, also in a case like this I dont know of any sellers that will send out money to have the animals shipped back to them and hnestly I dont know of any that will even reimburse anyone for that cost, I dont know of any companies that do that either, if a large retail company sends you a product and it get busted up for what ever reason in shipping they may replace it but I have never heard of one that will pay to ship the replacement, anway thats my tke best of luck
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AlligatorHunter @ Sep. 24 2002,15:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was never ride to anyone but I see how people are very in a hurry to jump on someone. Well if you had dead snakes arrive in the mail it wouldnt be the same way I know it and why because it was all over the board not to long ago. I am not trying to rip anyone off the two really are dead I have them still even though they are starting to smell. Al, I did not tell them you swindeled me at all. Cause you didnt swindle me. I believe that when you shipped the snakes they were all alive I believe that the bags that you sent them in did the harm since its kinda worm around here and the two weaker one couldnt handle it. I think they would have been better off either all together in one bag or in individual delli containers. Instead of in tiny little not areaas like individualy wraped candis. I told my card company that the two were dead on arrival same as I told you. They are just makeing sure I get what I order. I faxed them your add. They said by saying they are fussy eaters but perfectly healthy is a guarantee because you cant buy a car without the engine and in other words I paid for those snakes to be to your words. You didnt state they may die in shipping or anything like that. Or Lee I will not guarantee these snakes to your door!. I am not try to be a Big meany or jerk or dick. I just want esactly what I paid for. In know way will anyone buy these snakes off me trust me no one likes them except maybe me and you. They are cheaper whole sale but they are not guaranteed to be parasite free as Al said his were. If i'd have known it would have bothered him this much about the whole thing I would have went through the whoelsaler they are about 15ea from them same small size everything and they are guaranteed even with the parasites. But I sae AL's ad. Well I dont believe Al is a bad guy not one bit and neither am I. I just want what I paid for and I did not get it. Well I dont know if you all are going to retaliate against me seeing as thats the way its been. Oh and here are all the e-mail from between us!!!
-Lee</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
THAT IS THE THIRD TIME YOU CHANGED YOU MIND, NOW 2 WERE DOA.....I WILL NEVER GIVE YOU A PENNY, AND I STATED IN MY AD 2 WERE NOT EATING....IM VERY HONEST AS OTHERS HERE HAVE ALREADY NOTICED...AND YOU ARE A LIAR....2 DOA?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>/ NOW YOU HAVE 0 CHANCE OF GETTING A PENNY...IM NO LONGER GOING TO TOLERATE YOUR HARASSMENT...



. I told my card company that the two were dead on arrival same as I told you. They are just makeing sure I get what I order. I faxed them your add..........YOU ARE A LIAR....
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told my card company that the two were dead on arrival same as I told you. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> Lee according to the emails you posted you never told him two were dead on arrival, hear is what you told AL
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I recieved them today and all but one seem to be
fine. He is not moving or
breathing his tongue is not longer flickering
either. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Sounds to me more like one wasnt doing well when you got it and you expected it to die, because you say
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not expecting to pay for a
dead snake</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
you never said the snake is dead, so that leads me to believe the animal was still alive on arrival however was near death, yours stories have changed if you told the credit card company "two were dead on arrival" and told Al "all but ONE seem to be fine" that = credit card fraud, last time I checked that was illegal......................
 
If it comes down to it.  I believe that this whole thread can be used in court.  But since it is under 5000 I dought it would be worth it.  If his credit card co calls or writes you.  I would have this thread saved to send to them.  IMHO
 
that is great advice, i just saved it now, thanks alot. im so dumbfounded right now that i would not of thought of that. thanks again...i would also like to apolagize for my mouth a couple of replies back, i am trying hard to be the best i can when raising and breeding. and i was worried because my 2nd time selling resulted in this. the person who bought the folks
( ty caleb)was very happy with the snakes and my packaging. if you read both peoples emails, i even asked what they thought of the packaging and if i could improve in anyway. i put great pride in snakes and love to work with them, as i have for 6 years now. and im ashamed if the 2 really did pass, as they are quite interesting snakes.
 
Ok I am thru wasteing my time no one cares really what happens its side with my buddy or friend. The point being is I did not recieve them as described I am not going to reply to this any more as I do have a life. Obviousley you all dont. Good Bye and I hope this happens to one of you and you can understand what wrong. GOODBYE
-LEE
 
i wish i could cuss on here! " i have a life"<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> how is it you find time to email me 4 times a day?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> and that is the least in 1 day... and i geuss i will see you  WHERE??? GET A GRIP...AND ALL THIS TALK ABOUT PICS, AND THERE ARE STILL NONE TO LOOK AT??(NOT THAT IT MATTERS ANYMORE) BUT IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER TO KNOW THAT SNAKES THAT WERE BORN IN MY CARE, AND RAISED BY ME, ARE PROBABLY JUST FINE.
 
After reading this thread I think there are a couple of points that need to be brought up.  First of all I don't think either one of them is a bad guy, as I have gotten dead snakes before and I know how Lee feels.  At the same time if I sent out an animal that arrived DOA I would ask for a pic or to send the snake back and if there was no compliance I would not refund a dime either.  On the other hand ( need a lot of hands for this one ...LOL ) even though Al posted in his add that two of them were not feeding well he should not have shipped them without expressing very clearly he would not take any responsibility for those two in shipment or just not have shipped those two yet.  He was very honest but I think he made a bad call by shipping the two poorly feeding animals in the first place.  As far as the " RUDE " comments go I think they were eqaully rude to each other and both had reasons to be ticked off, better communication could have helped avoid this whole situation for both parties.  Al it sounds like you went out of your way to be honest and up front about the situation but to avoid any problems in the future make sure if you ship something out it is 100%, because even if you sell something as " AS IS " there are bound to be problems.  Its obvious to everyone that you were not trying to mislead or rip anyone off, but in my opinion this situation was created by bad judgement in shipping an animal that was not 100% in the first place, even if it was mentioned up front.

Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
Does anybody really believe that he is going to start a legal action over this small a dollar amount? He has no grounds! This entire thread is a joke. No guarantee was offered and yet partially refund was given? Enough already. Evan Stahl
 
No, I am not going to court but someone suggested it and realvenum said he would remmber that. I am not takeing anyone to court Al hasnt seen anything he just has my word cause he said I would have to ship them for a refund. If you read the e-mail right you will find that their was no refund given!!!! As it was sent to someone else's account not mine at all or it would be show in the e-mails!!! Al sorry that this upsets you but I believe if you tell somone snakes are healthy even though they havent fed for a while but you still say they are fine that is insureing them alone! If I ever told somone that I would honor it! Al I know you are a good guy but I did recieve two dead snakes! I never lie and I wont start now!! I would send them back to you but I preffer pictures. One reason I cant send them back to you as well is cause I need them as proof to show my Bank in wich I have the credit card with. I hope you just make sure to tell people when you sale them snakes that two might die. You should never say they are doing great because that implys that they are in good health in other words they will make it through the shipping. Sorry this happend this way. This is the last post I will do unless someone misinturpets something again! I will also post the picture by friday hopefully........ Thanks and all take care!
-Lee <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>
 
Well Lee they say a picture is worth a thousand words .... or in this case two snakes.  I think that Al would feel a lot better if he could see those pics and it would help this whole situation come to a pleasant ending for both of you.  And I have to say I agree with Evan in the sense that this whole situation is over two snakes with very little value.  I am not saying that either of you should just blow it off, what I am saying is that all in all it's just not worth all the aggrevation.

Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
A similar thing occurred to me about a year ago. I bought 2 snakes from someone who told me up front they were problem eaters. I essentially got 2 snakes for what one normally cost. The female died 9 days after I got her. The male was assist fed for several months, and is now eats regularly, and is on the way to becoming a healthy adult. When the female died, I notified the person that sold me the snakes, just to let him know that the one snake didn't make it. He was very apologetic, even though I told him that I was aware of the risk involved when I bought them. I ran into this person at a show sometime later, and he was still trying to give me another animal for the dead snake. I told him again that I understood the risk when I bought, and that he didn't owe me anything.
 To put this all in a nutshell:
   1. I was aware that they were problem feeders.
   2. I bought them anyway.
   3. I paid less than market price for them.
   4. When you buy known problem feeders for less  than market price, you shouldn't be surprised if some don't make it.  
   5. The person I dealt with, and I, have had some communications periodically, and I consider him a respectable, conscientious person. I am happy that I met him. If he has anything I am interested in, I won't hesitate to deal with him in the future.
   6. For the amount of money you are talking about, you really shouldn't get your knickers in an uproar.

Thanks for letting me have my say,    Bryan
 
Lee, this isn't an issue of people rallying behind their 'friend' Al.  I don't know him and have never even talked with him as I would bet is the case with most replying to this thread.  I simply saw the ad you responded to.  It is simply a case  of us reading the situation and calling foul because you want a rule change mid-game.
*********************

I take issue with the fact that Lee first said the snake arrived DOA, then per his email to AL it just didn't look well on arrival but died later, then it and a second snake had died, THEN he tells his credit card company that TWO snakes arrived DOA when by his own written statements that was not the case.  There is also the issue of the $23 return.  While I did read that Al stopped that return, he did in fact initiate it with an intent to go beyond his duty in customer service - despite clearly stating that two animals were not in prime condition - i.e. not feeding.  Lee states that the account the $23 was issued to was not his account , HOWEVER, he later says that it is the account he used to make the payment.  If it is not his account, he at least has access to it because he admits to using it for the purchase.  Does anyone else not notice a trend with the shifting of 'truths' from this person?  

If I were Al, I would also require the stipulation for the pictures that they be exactly as someone else mentioned earlier - the snake stretched straight out and upside down.  I do not personally believe that the snakes are dead because Lee has yet to agree to pose the snakes as suggested and has yet to post any photo proof to this thread.  Unless the pictures are set up as suggested, it is not definative proof in my book.  I doubt very seriously that the bank needs or wants to see allegedly dead snakes in order to begin mediation in this matter.  (I have made a credit card dispute before with my company and the only thing the credit card company required was a written statement and proof that payment was made and accepted.  They act as mediators to resolve the issue between the parties from there.)  Regarding the specifications on the pictures, I can take my SIGB from his enclosure and set him on a table top and regardless of the position he is in when I set him down, he does not move for several minutes UNLESS he is not upright - only then does he immediately move to right himself.  Of the 17 snakes I own, the candoia are the most sedentary of the lot, rarely exploring their tubs or moving from their selected spot.  I have been known to touch the little male early on just to see if he is still alive because I'd never experienced anything like it with my other snakes.

Can I understand a person's disappointment if an animal arrived DOA or died shortly after arrival - of course.  This isn't a matter of the buyer not knowing what he was getting though or having a gauranty on the animals coming.  Nowhere in any of those emails did I read where any type of gauranty was made regarding the non-feeders.  While it may or may not have been a good idea for Al to ship them, dealers do it all the time with wc or less than prime cb offspring and the purchaser knows what they are getting - less than prime animals with the opportunity to bring them around.  It is to be expected that not all specimens received under these conditions will live - a disappointing situation but a fact of the hobby.  Not everything lives.  In this case, the purchaser wants a gauranty on something that was already stated as non-feeding and not up to par with the other four.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
*************

Al, I hope this doesn't sour you on future sales being only your second internet sale.  I would suggest for the future that you be very explicit on your policies and gauranties in writing before accepting payment and possibly make sure to receive an email in return accepting those agreements set forth for the sale. *shrug*  It's better to cover yourself needlessly than to have to come here and muddle through such a mess.

Sorry for the length but wanted all of my thoughts to come across clearly.  Think I got up to .04 cents worth on that one.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>
Dianne
 
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